Oil Pump Dyno

[427John]

I would agree with most of that . Also I am throwing a question out there to you guys that have been in this for a very long time and seen it  I think its relative .
 
The oil filter issue  Who has had these things split on them ? At what kind of pressures did they do this and where exactly in the filter did it split ? Aside from the H&M filter what was the work around for these issues ?
My 66 fast back had a high revving small block in it and the original owner had transformed it into a mini gasser way back when . His family members reference it "Exploding" oil filters among other 4 speed related items but no one has any detailed info on that.

Ive never had one cone apart and I have always run the fram of the FL-1A with never any more than about 80 PSI.

Any good quality filter should be up to the hot pressures normally encountered,it is the cold start spikes that you have to worry about,damage may not be an immediate burst but a weakening of the shell crimp that may leak later.The thick shell filters such as the old H/M piece and the purolator it was relabeled from as well as the mentioned Wix r filters and Baldwin B253 have a burst pressure of 350-600 psi due to the thicker shells and backplates allowing a stronger crimp joint.The work around would be to have a preheater to warm the oil before starts.I believe the nascar teams choice of them was more around making things as bullet proof as possible to prevent a possible failure in the middle of a 500 mile race than due to the oil pressure they run.

[427HISS]

It sure would be nice to understand all you ''mad FE scientists'' ! 

[Blueoval77]

OK ,  I am going to bring something up and I dont want to hear any SH@#$ . It was the craziest thing I had seen or heard of at the time and it made me think all sorts of things about engines.
So I am sitting on the beach in Daytona doing my best to become a retired Bum and this Canadian company kept bugging me about coming to work on a few projects up here in MD which is my home town.
Well finally they threw the kinda money you cant turn down and I begrudgingly came back up the road. THis was about 6 years and two natural gas fired plants .  Yeah I know it sounds irrelative .
So each of these plants have two turbines in them that seem about as long as half a foot ball field .  These things are mammoth . They came in by boat and we had roads closed and all kinds of the serious moving equipment to bring these things in . I forget what the lift was on them but it was pretty insane . So big . Huge.
Power plants arent my thing but its a huge machine so I would go out and look and try to figure out how this thing works as it was going together  . Well when they started unwrapping these turbines and making the support sytems for them I saw that it had bearing surfaces . Like Crankshaft bearings. ANd for the life of me I could not figure out how those bearings would last any time at all with that kind of weight on them . I mean these turbines are rolling when this thing is turned up . Its not a slow speed operation . SO then the oiling systems started coming up and being put together and I had a guy who was well versed in the whole thing give me the 411 on how this thing doesnt fly apart in like an hour.
Anyhow long story long . Before the turbines even start to spin up the oiling systems run and pressure builds . The Turbine is then floated with oil pressure and then thats how the bearings which I swear to god just look like huge main bearings survive...
SO then I start thinking about this whole oil film thing and cars etc etc etc.... SO what does high pressure really do in there ?? There is a ton of oil being vented from these surfaces but how much of that pressure actually floats the cam or crank in its bearings....

[66FAIRLANE]

SO what does high pressure really do in there ?? There is a ton of oil being vented from these surfaces but how much of that pressure actually floats the cam or crank in its bearings....

I'm gunna have a stab at none. The oil pressure is there merely to keep up replenishment of the hydrodynamic wedge as it is lost through clearances......of course I could be wrong.

[Blueoval77]

I would agree but just a tiny tiny bit of hydraulic power can overcome quite a bit of mechanical force...

[WConley]

SO what does high pressure really do in there ?? There is a ton of oil being vented from these surfaces but how much of that pressure actually floats the cam or crank in its bearings....

I'm gunna have a stab at none. The oil pressure is there merely to keep up replenishment of the hydrodynamic wedge as it is lost through clearances......of course I could be wrong.

Ding Ding Ding!  Winner    The hydrodynamic wedge does leak out.  The extra flow also carries away A LOT of heat that would destroy the bearing in short order.

I almost started my career at GE Steam Turbine Division, but then I got the opportunity to go to Ford.  Yeah I bet those big bearings do need to float the machine a bit at startup, but once it's running the wedge will be self-sustaining.  They're cool machines, but not very exciting to work on.  The drawings they showed me during my interview were all at least 60 years old 

[MeanGene]

One thing I have never agreed with, is the insistence by some that the hot tip was to plug and disable the rear pressure relief on the hipo blocks, and let the pump bypass handle everything. Ford spent a lot of money developing that setup, and it always made sense to me, it doesn't by pass until good pressure gets to the end of the system, and allows for a somewhat (but far from exact) consistent pressure- why would you want to disable it? How is it possibly better without the rear relief? I remember Bobby bitching about it (imagine that lol), blamed it for blowing a filter- but the filter is at the beginning of the system, by the pump bypass, not at the end of the system

[mike7570]

Maybe off topic a little but a story about the in block bypass.
I had to rebuild my tunnel port due to a spun rod bearing at a Bakersfield race. Because I needed to regrind the crank I went ahead and offset it to 3.99 stroke with a 2.20 journal and ordered BBC rods and new pistons. Since I was going to get the block bored to a BBC 4.250 I took the block to a noted West Coast shop that builds stock and super-stock motors (mostly Chev.) for the machine work. The block was finished and it looked great, everything was done to the right dimensions and the block was cleaned and painted and ready to assemble. I found myself being pressed for time because I had a Winternationals entry paid in super-gas and I needed to get the car running. After finishing up without a lot a time to spare I fired up the motor in the garage and only ran it a few minutes. It sounded great and and the oil pressure was up around normal cold idle about 60psi+ (20/50 Valvoline)
I loaded up and took it to Pomona and got set up in the pits. Firing up the car I headed to tech, as I was driving to the tech lane i noticed the oil pressure started falling!  oh oh. I turned around and headed back to my pit. I checked the oil, pulled the distributor and a valve cover and spun the oil pump. It had oil to the rockers. Fired it up again and watched it go almost to zero. Took it home to figure it out and found the bypass valve and spring in backward. (Chevy guys) with cold oil it couldn't leak out all of it and still built pressure, as it warmed the oil flowed out and pressure fell, luckily I didn't hurt anything.
All was well after turning it around.

[Cyclone03]

On the subject of by pass,or pressure relief are they the same as a regulator?
If the regulator is at the end of the system wouldn’t all the fluid prior to it be the set pressure?
With a pump by pass wouldn’t gallery pressure drop after the highest restriction ?

[wowens]

Do the aftermarket blocks use the factory style relief valve?
I have not owned one "yet".

[blykins]

Do the aftermarket blocks use the factory style relief valve?
I have not owned one "yet".

No sir.

[WConley]

Gonna throw this on the "pump" in the next few days.  Thanks to a tip I got here, I was able to score a small block Ford 5/8" pickup.  It should bolt up.

[427John]

OK ,  I am going to bring something up and I dont want to hear any SH@#$ . It was the craziest thing I had seen or heard of at the time and it made me think all sorts of things about engines.
So I am sitting on the beach in Daytona doing my best to become a retired Bum and this Canadian company kept bugging me about coming to work on a few projects up here in MD which is my home town.
Well finally they threw the kinda money you cant turn down and I begrudgingly came back up the road. THis was about 6 years and two natural gas fired plants .  Yeah I know it sounds irrelative .
So each of these plants have two turbines in them that seem about as long as half a foot ball field .  These things are mammoth . They came in by boat and we had roads closed and all kinds of the serious moving equipment to bring these things in . I forget what the lift was on them but it was pretty insane . So big . Huge.
Power plants arent my thing but its a huge machine so I would go out and look and try to figure out how this thing works as it was going together  . Well when they started unwrapping these turbines and making the support sytems for them I saw that it had bearing surfaces . Like Crankshaft bearings. ANd for the life of me I could not figure out how those bearings would last any time at all with that kind of weight on them . I mean these turbines are rolling when this thing is turned up . Its not a slow speed operation . SO then the oiling systems started coming up and being put together and I had a guy who was well versed in the whole thing give me the 411 on how this thing doesnt fly apart in like an hour.
Anyhow long story long . Before the turbines even start to spin up the oiling systems run and pressure builds . The Turbine is then floated with oil pressure and then thats how the bearings which I swear to god just look like huge main bearings survive...
SO then I start thinking about this whole oil film thing and cars etc etc etc.... SO what does high pressure really do in there ?? There is a ton of oil being vented from these surfaces but how much of that pressure actually floats the cam or crank in its bearings....

While the oil wedge prevents metal to metal contact during run,during the initial roll the pressurized oil is needed to support the rotating element until the oil wedge is formed.The journal bearings you describe are commonly used in steam turbines and large electric motors and generators.In the Navy they are used on both the main propulsion turbines and the ship service turbine generators ,at the paper mill I worked at,they were used in the 25,000 hp electric motors for the refiners,if they are run continuously with an oil supply they will show almost no wear even after years of use,99.999% of wear happens at the initial roll and even a momentary loss of oil film will wipe the bearing.The most surprising thing about them is the ease that they can be changed with the correct tools.

[Blueoval77]

Yeah not much to that . The very end had a tower and that was about as you would expect it to be . The center supports were a bit more hard to get at but not bad. Each had an oil system with many many drums of oil that went into each. In fact that pipping and the pumps and the controls took up much of the floor space around the turbine at ground level.

[WConley]

Gonna throw this on the "pump" in the next few days.  Thanks to a tip I got here, I was able to score a small block Ford 5/8" pickup.  It should bolt up.

Hi guys - I just finished running the 5/8" pickup with the Melling M-57 HV and Melling M-57 B pumps.  The real difference I see is that the bigger pickup seems to help with that pressure "dip" we saw on the M-57 B standard volume pump.  This curve shows slightly higher pressure across the board with the big pickup, but I'm not convinced that's real.  There is likely a run-to-run difference in the orifice valve position on the rig that would account for that.



You can see the difference in that pressure "dip" area.  Perhaps there was some kind of turbulence or resonance that's more pronounced with the stock pickup.  Here's the HV pump.  You can see that the curves are almost laying on top of each other.  For some reason this time the bypass valve decided to open at 94 psi instead of 92 psi.  I can't explain that with the changing of the pickup!



Any insight or discussion would be appreciated.  I would say that the bigger pickup can only help, and in the case of the standard volume M-57 B it seems to smooth out a higher rpm pressure dip.

Again I attached the curve images so you can open them up and better see them.  The flow curves look very similar so I figured they'd be redundant.