How much oil?

[ScotiaFE]

The other day I got into a bit of a debate on the the other place about how much oil
you should put in a stock Cobra Jet type oil pan.
I remember back when Jay first ran the oil sight glass on the mule.
And then did a great write up in the book.
I say 6 quarts in the pan and 1 in the filter. Total 7 in the system.
If you have only five in the pan and run the engine up to 2500 rpm then you will suck up
2 1/2 to 3 quart and that will be circulating in the engine all the time.
Then there is only 2  to 2 1/2 quarts in the pan. To me that's not a lot of oil for the engine at speed.
I have been running 6 quarts in my 390 with a stock CJ knock off pan and windage tray.
At best case with really good drain back and oil tins and restrictors you will still have about 2 plus quarts circulating
in the engine. I'm only guesstimating.
With 6 in the pan and then running at 2500 rpm and 2 pluss circulating that would leave 4 or less in the pan.
Which is good I say.
You really do want some oil up on the springs and valve train.
Any thoughts on this?

[Ford428CJ]

 If your doing a lot of street driving with a solid roller cam or a big solid with some spring pressure..... I want some of the oil on the top end, to help cool the springs. I feel it helps with the long javidi.... JMHO

[ScotiaFE]

I went and dug out a old stock pan.
I marked it and filled it with water gauging each quart.
I run a similar pan with windage tray and Melling HV pump on my 390.
With 6 quarts in the pan NOT running the oil level will still be below the windage tray.
As soon as you start cranking the oil level will drop.
When the engine is at 2500 rpm you will have 3 1/2 quarts in the pan. Just the right amount for
a stock depth FE oil pan.

I'm thinking of linking this to the other place if that's OK Jay. "?"

The pan.


2 Quarts.


3 Quarts.


4 Quarts.


5 Quarts.


6 Quarts.


The Gauge.


My 390. Well of coruse I had to show it.

[Glenn N]

Howie those are good pics thanks for taking the time. Interesting topic. Wasn't there a TSB issued for the later CJ/SCJ in regards to this topic? I have heard 5-6-7 qts and to be honest it's been a long time since I had a CJ car. I can't remember what I used but varied from what I remember. My 68 390 Cougar I use 6 with a filter change and stock pan. Oil level on the stick shows half qt over with a FL-1A fliter after running and settled. Always very good oil pressure. Pan is whatever stock 390 S code used in 68. Dipstick original also.

[jayb]

Link away, Howie, this is the internet 

FWIW, I don't buy the need for additional oil to cool the springs in a street or drag race application.  Endurance racing, like NASCAR, yes, but not on the street or on any normal drag race engine.  Even with big cams and springs, at the lower engine speeds I don't believe enough heat is generated in the springs to cause a problem that would require excess oil for cooling.  I have a plan to run a dyno test on this at some point, with an infrared temperature sensor looking at a spring through a hole in the valve cover to actually quantify this at various engine speeds.  But I've never run across a spring problem on any of my high horsepower engines, and have always restricted oil to the heads (except for the cammers, which are a whole different animal).

[Ford428CJ]

Link away, Howie, this is the internet 

FWIW, I don't buy the need for additional oil to cool the springs in a street or drag race application.  Endurance racing, like NASCAR, yes, but not on the street or on any normal drag race engine.  Even with big cams and springs, at the lower engine speeds I don't believe enough heat is generated in the springs to cause a problem that would require excess oil for cooling.  I have a plan to run a dyno test on this at some point, with an infrared temperature sensor looking at a spring through a hole in the valve cover to actually quantify this at various engine speeds.  But I've never run across a spring problem on any of my high horsepower engines, and have always restricted oil to the heads (except for the cammers, which are a whole different animal).

 NASCAR spray there springs. I found some good info on this subject Jay. The Q is, Wheres the fine line here!? Also if you run bearing in your rockers (Erson's or along those lines), I agree on restricting them for sure! If you run a good set of stockers or Comps (along those lines) I would be a little hesitant on restricting them as much. JMHO

http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4595

[machoneman]

That's a good question, when is spring cooling needed?

I've also never seen a drag race engine burn up springs (not just color but also a rapid drop-off in tension) nor any well-maintained street engine, even those pushed mighty hard. In both cases, these engines do not run at high rpm for hours on end like NASCAR and endurance road race engines as Jay made the case. 

Maybe Barry or another track, long distance race engine builder can help out here. 

[Chad D]

Link away, Howie, this is the internet 

FWIW, I don't buy the need for additional oil to cool the springs in a street or drag race application.  Endurance racing, like NASCAR, yes, but not on the street or on any normal drag race engine.  Even with big cams and springs, at the lower engine speeds I don't believe enough heat is generated in the springs to cause a problem that would require excess oil for cooling.  I have a plan to run a dyno test on this at some point, with an infrared temperature sensor looking at a spring through a hole in the valve cover to actually quantify this at various engine speeds.  But I've never run across a spring problem on any of my high horsepower engines, and have always restricted oil to the heads (except for the cammers, which are a whole different animal).

Did you ever look at the temps on springs, Jay?

[Joe-jdc]

The TSB said to add an extra quart to a normal fill.  I bought a 69 Fairlane Cobra, and a 1970 Shelby GT-500, and I was told to add the extra quart to a normal fill.  6+1.  I have had valve springs break from lack of oil, and they get extremely hot if there is not a constant spray of oil on them while driving.  I am of the opinion that plenty of oil is a GOOD thing in the head as long as the seals are working properly, and your drains are opened up for quick return to the pan.  Joe-JDC.

[Chad D]

The TSB said to add an extra quart to a normal fill.  I bought a 69 Fairlane Cobra, and a 1970 Shelby GT-500, and I was told to add the extra quart to a normal fill.  6+1.  I have had valve springs break from lack of oil, and they get extremely hot if there is not a constant spray of oil on them while driving.  I am of the opinion that plenty of oil is a GOOD thing in the head as long as the seals are working properly, and your drains are opened up for quick return to the pan.  Joe-JDC.

I agree that drains in the head are very important, any wisdom on how big they can go, and in what direction, without weakening the head casting?  Detailed drainback information frequently seems to be left out of discussion on this topic.

[ScotiaFE]

Here's a thread that got into that subject.

http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=586.msg4455