Author Topic: Guess my horsepower  (Read 19097 times)

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thatdarncat

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #45 on: March 26, 2019, 06:26:40 PM »
Today was the day. I know Jay is planning on putting up a post on the results later, so keep watching. Everything went fine.

Kevin Rolph

1967 Cougar Drag Car ( under constuction )
1966 7 litre Galaxie
1966 Country Squire 390
1966 Cyclone GT 390
1968 Torino GT 390
1972 Gran Torino wagon
1978 Lincoln Mk V

jayb

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #46 on: March 26, 2019, 07:24:30 PM »
Dyno day for Jim's 416 inch FE was today; here are the results from the best pull:

550.7 lb-ft @ 5000 RPM
601.0 HP @ 6400 RPM

A graph of the best pull is shown below:




Jim and I started with the engine about 8:30 this morning, and after a minor struggle getting his headers to fit the engine mounts on the dyno we had everything hooked up and ready to go by noon.  Before attaching the left side header, I took the opportunity to check the calibration of the torque sensor on the dyno.  I hadn't done this for several years, because every time I'd done it the calibration was right on.  This time was no exception; there is almost zero error in the dyno's torque reading.  I will put up a second post about the calibration process, so that people can see what is involved.  Also, for anyone interested, the STP correction factor for today's weather in the dyno cell was 4.0%.

After finishing up the left side header installation we ran into one more issue, and that was that the drain plugs for the water jacket on each side of the block had not been installed.  Naturally, we didn't discover this until I was filling the engine with water  ::)  After addressing that issue we checked for fuel leaks and set the initial timing, and then started the engine.  The engine ran great right from the start.  Jim had instructions from Blair to run the engine at 3000-4000 RPM for the first 25 minutes to break everything in, and then start making some lower RPM pulls to make sure the engine ran consistently before doing any higher RPM pulls.  We did all that with no issues.  The original timing setup per Blair's recommendation was 33 degrees total in the locked distributor.  We had a 1" open spacer, 1" 4 hole spacer, and 1" Super Sucker spacer to try out, in various combinations.  Original jetting for the 850 double pumper was 84/84 with blocked power valves, also per Blair's recommendations.

After the initial 25 minute run-in we let the engine cool for about 15 minutes, then did a cruise test, and finally started with some lower speed pulls, 3000 to 5000 RPM.  Right away the pulls were perfectly repeatable, but we were getting A/F numbers in the high 13s, so we started jetting up.  What we discovered along the way during the pulls was that this engine wanted to run on the lean side; we kept seeing 13+ for the A/F numbers, with jetting all the way up to 88/90.  Finally we overkilled it and went to 93/96 jets.  At that level the A/F numbers came into line nicely at around 12.7:1, but the power was down 10-12 HP across the entire RPM range.  We went back to 90/90 jets and ran the final pulls with that combination. 

We made a total of 18 dyno pulls on the engine.  The last half dozen or so were for testing spacers.  The best combination turned out to be the 4 hole spacer right under the carb, and then the open spacer under that.  We tried the Super Sucker on top of the open spacer and it wasn't quite as good, but the difference was only about 1 average HP.  We also tried the Super Sucker by itself, and it was down about 2 HP on average from the combination of the 4 hole and open spacers.  Another example of how you just can't tell how these things are going to work on a given engine until you can actually test them.

At the end of the day we tried to bump the timing up to 35 degrees, and this also picked up a little power, but not very much, only a couple HP on average through the pull. 

The engine sounded really good through the whole process.  We made several pulls up to 6800 RPM with no hint of problems, and were going to make one pull to 7100 or so but we didn't end up doing that, just forgot about it until the engine was partially disconnected from the dyno.  Overall this was a very successful day, and Jim has a really strong bracket engine that ought to run well for years.  The engine looks good on the dyno (especially those kickass valve covers  ;D ), and I'm looking forward to seeing pictures of it in the car.


« Last Edit: March 26, 2019, 07:49:43 PM by jayb »
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

plovett

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #47 on: March 26, 2019, 07:36:18 PM »
601 hp at 6400 rpm out of a 416?  Holygoodlord.  That is impressive.

JMO,

paulie

chilly460

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #48 on: March 26, 2019, 09:03:16 PM »
Very solid numbers, compares well peak to peak with some 427 strokers.  I will say hp peak rpm seems low to me, could it be the intake?  .

CaptCobrajet

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #49 on: March 26, 2019, 09:24:43 PM »
Looks like a good day.  I notice in the graph that the carb is fussy.  It goes up, then goes flat.....then up again, then flat.  It does this four times through the range.  It is working on the fifth flat where the pull stopped.  I think it was getting ready to recover again, and gain a little more, then peak closer to 7000.  Notice the "steps" in the graph.  Appears it needs some emulsion work to smooth the fuel curve and the power curve would not have those dips.  It would be interesting to look at A/F and BSFC right in those dips versus before and after the dips.  I think the "peak" wasn't quite the peak.....

In the big scheme, I was glad to hear that y'all had a successful day!  Congrats Mr. Jim and Mr. Jay.
Blair Patrick

jayb

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #50 on: March 26, 2019, 10:04:16 PM »
Blair, here's some of the data that you asked for from the pull:




As far as making more power higher up, it sure didn't look like it would to me.  Here's a few more pulls, these all to 6800 RPM, where we tried different combinations.  It was a broad power curve up top, but it didn't look to me like it was going to pick up again.  Also note that the first plot is the one where we cranked the jetting way up, so it looks a little smoother but it is down on power from the others:










Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

57 lima bean

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #51 on: March 26, 2019, 10:14:34 PM »
Very solid numbers, compares well peak to peak with some 427 strokers.  I will say hp peak rpm seems low to me, could it be the intake?  .
   

    As a peanut gallery observer today and seeing what Jay has "in stock" I thought the same. Considering the size of the engine,I think the dual plane manifold complements this engine well.It does appear the carb.was close to its limit.

CaptCobrajet

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #52 on: March 26, 2019, 10:26:47 PM »
I usually see peak from 6800 to 7000 with that stroke, cam, and intake manifold.  That carb is definitely struggling.  You would never hear that surge that is coming and going, but the dips in the power graph appear to relate to the bsfc and a/f swings.  It could just be dirty air bleeds, or some burrs in the emulsion circuit bleeds.....
Blair Patrick

cjshaker

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #53 on: March 27, 2019, 01:44:25 AM »
1.44 hp per CI. Not too shabby! And on a dual plane intake with a .540 lift cam?
This is why I don't guess on Blairs engines. I'd always be wrong, unless I just added a couple tenths per CI, just for the hell of it.

That engine should live a pretty easy life, given the lack of stress on the valvetrain. Should make for an enjoyable, trouble free combo.
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

Jim Comet

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #54 on: March 27, 2019, 07:02:38 AM »
Thank you Jay for a very good day yesterday. I really appreciate your help, patience and expertise. Thank you to Blair for building a stout motor. I am going to bolt it in my Comet as is and run it. I may look into getting a more race oriented carb in the future to see if than will help. Also, thank you to Kevin and Steve for hanging out and your advise. It means alot coming from you guys with real world experience. Jim

mbrunson427

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #55 on: March 27, 2019, 08:48:32 AM »
This was fun. About 15 hp more stout than I expected. I do see what Blair is talking about with the carb though......doesn't seem like there's ever enough dyno time. I wish there was some more data for under 5000 rpm because I suspect there's some pretty good torque there.
Mike Brunson
BrunsonPerformance.com

jayb

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #56 on: March 27, 2019, 09:23:16 AM »
We actually ran pulls down to 3000 RPM, and peak torque was always at 4900-5000 RPM.  But torque was really good down low too, around 460 lb-ft at 3000 RPM, 500 lb-ft at 4000, etc.  This is a good race motor, but I think it would be a pretty good street motor too.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

CaptCobrajet

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #57 on: March 27, 2019, 11:05:48 AM »
Yes, it is fun to see the guess game, and then the results.  I was curious yesterday as I got some play-by-play from Jim.  I have dynoed with Jay before......I knew they would get some good testing in.

That is a solid roller, but the hot lash is only .008.  it is tricky to set an accurate cold lash of .004, but I have a method that comes out pretty close when hot.  There won't be much "thrash from the lash" on that deal.  It would run fine on the street.  It only has .498 lift on the exhaust with those rockers.   I didn't spend any more of Jim's money bumping the exhaust rocker ratio because he has my higher end exhaust port anyway, but a little more lift would help it.  The Dove/Comp rockers showed me quite a bit of deflection. 

It would be fun to put a good .800 lift Super Stock cam and a worked single plane manifold on that engine, but I am afraid it would break the block.  It would make 750+ hp at 7500 rpm like that.  I don't think the 105 blocks can stand that much power.  What he has there will be reliable, and won't kill the bolt-on valvetrain with .530 and .498 lifts.  I started liking that combo more as I was putting it together.  We do so many long strokers these days........that shortblock does not give up much in efficiency at 4.08 x 3.98.  I am happy for Jim, and he is lucky to have Jay right there local to him.

Blair Patrick

My427stang

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #58 on: March 27, 2019, 11:41:54 AM »
I agree, something funky with the main circuit.  Can you label the charts above with the spacer combo associated with it? 

My hunch is a 4 hole softened whatever forces the booster was feeling.  I also think that each peak is an recovery of a trough, so you may gain more overall if you could clean up the troughs above 6100.

Maybe HSAB too small allowing fuel droplets then cleaning up?  Maybe emulsion like Blair said?  Maybe even something odd like a valve action harmonic reflecting into the plenum.

I think there is more, maybe not a lot, but more
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

fryedaddy

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Re: Guess my horsepower
« Reply #59 on: March 27, 2019, 01:21:29 PM »
i messed up. on Brents guess game i always guess and then add 10 more hp just to be safe.this time my first guess was 591 and i forgot to add 10 this time.i would have hit it right on the money if i had.that was the first time i forgot to add 10.the reason i add ten is you engine builders seem to always surprise us.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2019, 01:24:31 PM by fryedaddy »
1966 comet caliente 428 4 speed owned since 1983                                                 1973 f250 ranger xlt 360 4 speed papaw bought new