Author Topic: 390 build from Mustang 360 forum  (Read 4423 times)

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blykins

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Re: 390 build from Mustang 360 forum
« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2020, 03:43:58 PM »
As far as Glyptal, some of us have been "lucky" with it for decades of use. If the oil returns are addressed prior to application, and you don't glop it on, it'll work just fine. Some parts we have coated, the Glyptal could barely be cleaned off with a sand blaster. It's like any other paint project, it's all in the prepwork and some in curing. Kaase still does it, so it can't be that stupid...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dIrvPfrnXjM

Notable quote from the video from Kaase concerning the 'improved airflow' from reworking his exhaust ports: "It'll flow a little bit better. It also hurts it about 30-50 horsepower, so we don't care as much about the airflow as we do about what that needle says on the dyno".

Good stuff. Theory and intuition take a back seat to experience.

I would be interested in hearing anyone's testimony in which they had an oil control problem that was remedied by it.   It does look nice, but for as many people that use it successfully, there are as many that don't use it successfully. 

The glyptol doesn't cure an oil control problem. I don't believe anyone has ever said that. It does aid in getting it back to the pan faster, and when you're turning 7000+ RPM and making 1000-4000 horsepower, anything that can aid in getting oil to the pan faster, to keep from sucking the pan dry, is a good thing. Wouldn't you agree? This would be especially important on engines that run at high throttle inputs for extended periods of time, such as the boat engines he mentioned. It also seals porosity on the block, which can hide grit and impurities that can contaminate the oil, or cause caking. 

Spending hours and hours and hours with a stone (sending abrasive grit to every crevice in the block) to smooth the casting finish seems pretty stupid when properly applied Glyptol will do it better, and quicker. Not using it in areas where parts are touching or moving should be common sense.

John Kaase has every right to brag about his accolades and accomplishments, but he is one of the most humble guys you will ever meet. A lesson that seems lost on a lot of people.

The way I was looking at it, oil not getting back to the pan quickly enough would be an oil control issue.   

My thought on it is that I have never personally seen a situation where it's warranted.  I've never built anything that made 4000 hp, but I've built a lot of pulling engines, bracket, and road race engines between the 700-1300 hp marks, and have never used any kind of internal block coating.   I can only go by what the oil pressure gauge does during a 20 second truck pull or a hard-loaded acceleration and by what the bearings look like on tear-down.   That's why I made that statement, I'd like to hear from someone who did a back-to-back and saw a difference.   I mean, we all have to be honest with each other here, there's a lot of practices that we put into our own personal engine building procedures that may or may not make a hill of beans difference, but we do it because we like to do it. 

Like Ross, I too have had experience with it when receiving blocks machined by a particular shop.  I've seen it flake off after a hot jet wash. 

Agreed, Kaase is extremely humble and a very down-to-earth guy.  I spent a day in his shop several years ago, had lunch with him, and dyno'd a B9 engine there.   Would love to have picked his brain about a bunch of stuff, but you always feel odd about asking lots of questions, because there are guys who have figured a lot of stuff out on their own and don't want to share (nor should they). 
Brent Lykins
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Barry_R

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Re: 390 build from Mustang 360 forum
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2020, 06:28:48 PM »
I personally hate glyptol. 
Like others, I have seen it come off.
Tip over a quart of oil and watch how fast it goes everywhere.
Now imagine it at 200+ degrees - like water...
I personally think most of the valley polish and paint stuff means more to the builder than it does to the engine.

cjshaker

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Re: 390 build from Mustang 360 forum
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2020, 08:52:02 PM »
Agreed, Kaase is extremely humble and a very down-to-earth guy.  I spent a day in his shop several years ago, had lunch with him, and dyno'd a B9 engine there.   Would love to have picked his brain about a bunch of stuff, but you always feel odd about asking lots of questions, because there are guys who have figured a lot of stuff out on their own and don't want to share (nor should they).

I've been around him a few times at the EMC events. I've talked to him on several occasions but try not to overdo it or ask too many questions, mainly because I'm a nobody. But he always would take the time to listen to me and give some great comments on stuff being discussed. The main thing I notice about him is that he is an open book. Ask him anything and he will freely give you any tricks or experience that he has on the subject, but always admitting that there are smarter guys than him out there. He has nothing to hide and always says that sharing ideas and experiences is how we/he learn in the hobby (even though he has much more to give than to gain). In the high performance world, he's one-in-a-million in that regards.

The article seems to be full of fluff, as most articles are. When they gained (supposedly, since you just have to take their word for it) 50hp by swapping to the EFI intake, that told me that the carbed intake was way off tune. Claiming a power number with nothing to back it up just seems dishonest.
Doug Smith


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cammerfe

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Re: 390 build from Mustang 360 forum
« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2020, 11:21:04 PM »
FWIW, in the Roush Prototype Shop the practice is to smooth out all the rougher parts of the inside of a block casting and let it be. When I was doing a series of articles there on the proper building of an FE engine, I left one day and didn't get back until about 10AM the next morning. That means a couple of hours max to do the smoothing that was done. It was all done with flap wheels and the mini-discs that are about an inch or so across.

KS

WConley

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Re: 390 build from Mustang 360 forum
« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2020, 01:24:23 AM »
FWIW, in the Roush Prototype Shop the practice is to smooth out all the rougher parts of the inside of a block casting and let it be. When I was doing a series of articles there on the proper building of an FE engine, I left one day and didn't get back until about 10AM the next morning. That means a couple of hours max to do the smoothing that was done. It was all done with flap wheels and the mini-discs that are about an inch or so across.

KS

Ken - That's what Holman-Moody did to my cammer block when it was new.  It's just detailed as you described, with parting lines / rough edges smoothed off.  I figure those guys knew a thing or two about getting oil back into a pan.
A careful study of failure will yield the ingredients for success.

My427stang

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Re: 390 build from Mustang 360 forum
« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2020, 07:54:13 AM »
I had a sideoiler come through here, nice block, had a lot of the "speed secrets" done, including cleaning up the valley surface, luckily whoever did it, did none of the ones that scare builders LOL

It will end up being a 482-ish build when done but is waiting for new owner to finish the car in front of it, and the 456 inch rotating assembly will be going in a member's Tunnel Port.   I agree that I don't think they need to be cleaned up, but it is better than something stuck to the surface in my book.



I did prep a nice C-scratch block Saturday though that had 2 returns fully blocked by casting flash.  Blocked, but so thin a burr plunged right in easily.  No polishing of course, but needless to say those need to be taken care of, mostly because of the ability of a chunk of iron to come loose

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- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

machyoung

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Re: 390 build from Mustang 360 forum
« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2020, 08:40:02 AM »
I'll say one thing about the article and that it that maybe it will drive more motor heads to FE's. Perhaps rattling or ringing Brent's or Barry's or Ross's email or phone w/ "Will you build me a 390 like in the Mustang 360 article"? Then you can school them on the proper way to do it and make a buck in the process. Isn't bringing new FE fanatics into the fold what it's all about?

My 2 cents...

e philpott

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Re: 390 build from Mustang 360 forum
« Reply #22 on: December 28, 2020, 09:35:55 AM »
if you do smooth out the valley by the lifters the oil will flow to the drain back much quicker like glyptol compared to untouched

Dumpling

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Re: 390 build from Mustang 360 forum
« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2020, 10:48:09 AM »
Quote
...when you're turning 7000+ RPM and making 1000-4000 horsepower, anything that can aid in getting oil to the pan faster,

...time for a dry sump or maybe just external oil drain back lines?

The original article was regarding a fairly plebeian FE.

turbohunter

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Re: 390 build from Mustang 360 forum
« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2020, 11:17:26 AM »
The original article was regarding a fairly plebeian FE.
Nice
Extra points from the grammar nazis ;D
Marc
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cammerfe

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Re: 390 build from Mustang 360 forum
« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2020, 10:56:28 PM »
I am, personally, a great fan of the dry-sump oiling system.

KS

cjshaker

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Re: 390 build from Mustang 360 forum
« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2020, 01:08:29 PM »
FWIW, in the Roush Prototype Shop the practice is to smooth out all the rougher parts of the inside of a block casting and let it be. When I was doing a series of articles there on the proper building of an FE engine, I left one day and didn't get back until about 10AM the next morning. That means a couple of hours max to do the smoothing that was done. It was all done with flap wheels and the mini-discs that are about an inch or so across.

KS

Ken - That's what Holman-Moody did to my cammer block when it was new.  It's just detailed as you described, with parting lines / rough edges smoothed off.  I figure those guys knew a thing or two about getting oil back into a pan.

My guess is that that was done to stop any stress riser areas, to avoid any crack formations. I've seen a few vintage blocks done that way, and always thought that it was a sound idea for any high performance applications, just like you would do to rods.
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

WConley

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Re: 390 build from Mustang 360 forum
« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2020, 01:29:43 PM »

My guess is that that was done to stop any stress riser areas, to avoid any crack formations. I've seen a few vintage blocks done that way, and always thought that it was a sound idea for any high performance applications, just like you would do to rods.

I bet you're right Doug.  Those rough areas can also hide mold sand and other nasty impurities.
A careful study of failure will yield the ingredients for success.

Joe-JDC

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Re: 390 build from Mustang 360 forum
« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2020, 02:02:43 PM »
I have a CJ block and heads that were painted with "glyptol" back in 1981 that is still serving well, and I am going to put it back together at +.030 for a performance build.  There were and are several paints out there that claim to be glyptol that are not oil resistant.  It all comes back to preparation of the block prior to painting and proper paint, IMO.  I have polished lifter galleys for myself, and others, and it is a pain, but does seem to drain the oil back quicker, and keeps the oil cleaner in the bottom of the pan.  I always polish the oil return area on heads that I port, and try to make sure an intake manifold has the indentions to match the gasket oil return for the FE.  Joe-JDC
Joe-JDC '70GT-500