FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: JimNolan on January 02, 2013, 12:11:35 PM
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Guys,
I got another question. Will the lifters pump up to maximum ridgity by rotating the oil pump with a drill, allowing me to adjust the valves without the engine running. Or, is the spring inside the lifter itself adaquate to provide enough ridgity to set valve lash. What I'm doing is eliminating most of the gap by raising and lowering the push rod, once gap is almost gone I rotate push rod back and forth with my fingers until I feel a slight resistance in turning. From what I've read, once slop has been taken out, rotate adjustment 1/4 turn. I'm using the firing order method of setting both intake and exhaust at top dead center of power stroke. Am I correct. Jim PS. Someone could have told me that my beautiful set of 66 GT valve covers weren't going to work on adjustable valve rockers. What a let down that was.
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Bummer on the valve covers; I'm surprised they didn't clear. Are they hitting the top of the adjuster screws? If you don't have a lot of interference you can always double up on the valve cover gaskets; just glue two of them together to make one thick gasket to get added clearance.
You shouldn't need to pump up the lifters with oil to do the adjustment, the spring in the lifter should hold the lifter seat and pushrod up to their maximum height. I'd be cautious about spinning the pushrod between your fingers for an indication of when you start getting depression of the lifter seat; it is easy to get fooled by that. Suggest you just keep moving the pushrod up and down until the slack goes away, then tighten an additional quarter turn or whatever. I usually use a half turn.
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Thanks Jay,
The top of the rockers are hitting. That's the unbaffled end also. There's no way in H _ _ _ they'll set down on there without substancial raising like you suggested. Not going to do that. Wish I could use my 63 covers but putting oil in through the dipstick seems like a waste of time. I've got a set of cast finned covers that I'll use.
I'll adjust them the way you said, go 1/2 turn more and see if they chatter, if they do I'll go more until chatter is gone. I don't think I'll be able to adjust with the engine running very easily. The adjusters have to be turned with a breaker bar no less. They are a lot nicer than the Pop's I had once that the man told me to pound the side of the rocker with a hammer to increase tension on the threaded adjuster. That was a real work of art. The adjusters could be screwed all the way in and out without a wrench. And, they weren't made for lock nuts. I'm suspicious of new products, expecially since they sell rocker arm's that are 50 years old on Ebay for premium prices. The fact that they are still here and wanted after 50 years should mean something.
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I'm more a full turn guy.
A good .040" press on the lifter will not hurt.
The lifter should be empty when setting preload.
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You could use the gasket as a template and make spacers out of aluminum. I have done that many times to get past baffles and other obstacles in the way of my valve train.
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If you must, Dennis @ DSC has FE spacers......not cheap but.....
http://www.dscmotorsport.com/asp/products/content_cylinder.asp?SubCat=65&GroupID=2
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It takes time, but in cases where I didn't have time to babysit a build, I have mocked up the valve train with the intake off and measured the preload at the lifter.
Then disassemble, keep pieces in the same location, and put the intake on and reassemble. It certainly builds a little confidence over feeling the preload and counting rocker turns.
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We're the same as Ross. We measure every build for pushrod length before installing the intake & do it at zero preload with the adjuster position set a turn/thead back from desired end position. That way we know how far down we'll get with a full turn.
When you're "done" all the adjusters should look similar - if you have one thats way higher or lower you know there's something that requires a re-do.
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If you really want to use those valve covers, why not just sell the adjustable rockers and go back to the non adjustable ones? It should be easy to measure the length of the pushrod with the lifter plunger at the top then add .05 or whatever preload you want to the length and order custom pushrods. Just be sure to measure each one and use a 12" caliper and a ball-ball pushrod length checker. You can order different length pushrods if needed.
Another thing you could look at is the length of your adjuster screws. If they are too long, and a lot sticks out past the lock nut, a shorter set might make a difference.
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If you really want to use those valve covers, why not just sell the adjustable rockers and go back to the non adjustable ones? It should be easy to measure the length of the pushrod with the lifter plunger at the top then add .05 or whatever preload you want to the length and order custom pushrods. Just be sure to measure each one and use a 12" caliper and a ball-ball pushrod length checker. You can order different length pushrods if needed.
Another thing you could look at is the length of your adjuster screws. If they are too long, and a lot sticks out past the lock nut, a shorter set might make a difference.
Afret,
Edelbrock refuses to warranty the heads if I go to 1.73 rockers. I will try my best to honestly adhere to their requirements so if anything happens to the heads I can confront them with conviction. I'm glueing two cork gaskets together now and I've bought a set of rubber gaskets that I plan on applying to the heads permanently with rtv assuring the level of the intake-head match at the ends. I already know that the Edelbrock rocker studs work without interfernce, so it's just getting the height for the adjusters to clear. If this effort somehow fails I will order the spacers from DSC or Barry. I just wish they made extentions in 1/4" increments. I've got to consider my power brake booster. I didn't know they made different length adjusters. I'll look into it depending on how plan "A" turns out. Thank you for your input. Jim
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It's admirable how you're trying to follow the specifications listed on the Edelbrock FE Performer RPM Head instruction sheet. But have you looked at what else they require on that sheet besides the 1.76 adjustable rockers? They say to use Ford B8AZ-6565-C pushrods with 9.180" center of ball to center of cup and 9.370" overall length, 7* x 3/8" valve locks (#9612), 30* intake valve seat, 1.55" diameter springs installed at 1.885" with 120 lbs seat pressure, and so on.
So if you use different valve springs, retainers, valve locks, pushrods, rockers, than what is listed, I guess the warranty is void. I don't think you can get those pushrods anymore. Also if you read the warranty on the Edelbrock site, they state that the warranty is void if the product is changed or modified in any way or used for racing. So if you do anything to the head or take it to the track, the warranty is no good.
I think they have covered themselves pretty well. :)
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One thing I do know on race parts you get the taillight warranty, you buy it you own it.
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And they will know you used a different rocker arm how?
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Guys,
I called them and talked to them about it. They just gave geometry as the reason for wanting 1.76 rockers. So I went with it. Does anyone on here use 1.73 rockers with 60069 Edelbrock heads. I'd like to hear from them as to their experiences.
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Just a question? Why would you want to go with a lower ratio rocker? Are you trying to tame down your camshaft or do you have valve clearance issues, just wondering?
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Just a question? Why would you want to go with a lower ratio rocker? Are you trying to tame down your camshaft or do you have valve clearance issues, just wondering?
fe66comet,
I don't, I just want a set of valve covers that I like and will fit the thing without raising the valve covers an inch and hitting my power brake booster at the same time. And, I found a set I like. The GT valve covers aren't going to fit. I just have to get used to the idea. I had a real nice set of 63 valve covers I've decided to remodel with oil fill and PCV fittings. I already put the PCV fitting in and I bored out the hole a little small so the cover digs into the gromment enough after I put the PCV valve in that it hugs the contour of the valve cover. Now, I've just got to weld a tube into the other valve cover that doesn't take away from the appearance. I'm putting the holes between 3-4 rockers and 5-6 rockers so I'll be able to fabricate a small baffle under each. I'll paint them Castellian Gold like the air cleaner I'm showing in the picture. The air cleaner I'm going to use is a 14" round with 3" K/N filter with 1969 Corvette L88 base. Those bases have a two inch drop that fit a Holley 4160 carburetor with duel fuel inlet. I've already got a 14" air cleaner lid painted Castellian Gold that I'm using on the 57 now. (http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag84/JimNolan/Photo01071308_zpsd04ac68f.jpg) Jim PS waiting on the rocker stands now.
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Jim, what's the significance of the Castellian Gold you refer to? Is that the name of the color Ford used for the 390 or is it a Jim Nolan favorite? Btw, that PCV installation on the RH cover looks pretty good...
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Jim, FWIW I dont see how using a stock hyd rocker could possibly hurt the head.
If the valve stems are a little longer, you could have some odd geometry at the pushrod side and require shorter than stock hyd pushrods, but I seriously cannot think how it would hurt the head, valve or guide.
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You would.be sacrificing a more than I would give up for the covers that's all. I have the same issue but I am willing to remove the cylinder to gain access to the valves or gaskets if I need to. My car came with tall Holley covers everything in my comet is like that like to install or remove the manifolds the heads have to come off or pull the engine. Kinda a pain but it is what it is I guess.
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Jim, what's the significance of the Castellian Gold you refer to? Is that the name of the color Ford used for the 390 or is it a Jim Nolan favorite? Btw, that PCV installation on the RH cover looks pretty good...
Bruce,
Castellion Gold was what the early 60's higher HP engines and Thunderbirds used on their valve covers and air cleaners. I've got the formula and it's a whole lot more expensive than rattle can bronze. If you want the formula I'll try and find it. It's somewhere here on this computer. I'd just have to dig for it. I had a qt. made up a few years ago and I'm still using it.
Ross and fe66comet,
Me, you and Jay hashed this out before. No one could figure out why Edelbrock wanted to use 1.76 except for the fact they thought people used pushrods without measuring for length requirements. I talked to the engineer for 15 minutes and told him I was using Hydraulic Lifters and would be measuring for correct length push rods. He was emphatic that I used 1.76 rockers. The decision to go 1.76 was moot because I had to buy new shafts, rockers and pushrods for this build and there was no reason "NOT" to go to 1.76 rockers and also the fact that the solid lifter pushrods are bigger due to valve springs usually being heavier. My concerns are not that I'm running 1.76 rockers, I'm happy with that. The valve covers don't mean as much as throwing $450.00 at this point. These 63 stock covers will work out great just as long as I maintain enough professionalism to incorporate a oil cap into the other valve cover that won't distract from it's appearence. I was quit proud of the location and fit of the PCV installation on the passenger side. If I can find a vented oil cap thats small and unassuming I believe it'll be OK. Jim (http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag84/JimNolan/Photo01071309_1_zps5b1a659e.jpg)
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I am definitely impressed with your work truly a slid price of engineering. Was just wondering why it got so complicated I am going with the same heads and sure hope it does not turn into a new mousetrap deal.
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I am definitely impressed with your work truly a slid price of engineering. Was just wondering why it got so complicated I am going with the same heads and sure hope it does not turn into a new mousetrap deal.
fe66comet,
It didn't get complicated until I wanted to use those GT Valve Covers. I shouldn't have even mentioned it. It really didn't add any relevance to the post really. But, I think everyone knows now that GT Valve Covers won't work with adjustable rockers. I didn't know. I'll try and add a vented oil cap on the other cover that will look OK also. Jim
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Jim, what's the significance of the Castellian Gold you refer to? Is that the name of the color Ford used for the 390 or is it a Jim Nolan favorite? Btw, that PCV installation on the RH cover looks pretty good...
Bruce,
Castellion Gold was what the early 60's higher HP engines and Thunderbirds used on their valve covers and air cleaners. I've got the formula and it's a whole lot more expensive than rattle can bronze. If you want the formula I'll try and find it. It's somewhere here on this computer. I'd just have to dig for it. I had a qt. made up a few years ago and I'm still using it.
Ross and fe66comet,
Me, you and Jay hashed this out before. No one could figure out why Edelbrock wanted to use 1.76 except for the fact they thought people used pushrods without measuring for length requirements. I talked to the engineer for 15 minutes and told him I was using Hydraulic Lifters and would be measuring for correct length push rods. He was emphatic that I used 1.76 rockers. The decision to go 1.76 was moot because I had to buy new shafts, rockers and pushrods for this build and there was no reason "NOT" to go to 1.76 rockers and also the fact that the solid lifter pushrods are bigger due to valve springs usually being heavier. My concerns are not that I'm running 1.76 rockers, I'm happy with that. The valve covers don't mean as much as throwing $450.00 at this point. These 63 stock covers will work out great just as long as I maintain enough professionalism to incorporate a oil cap into the other valve cover that won't distract from it's appearence. I was quit proud of the location and fit of the PCV installation on the passenger side. If I can find a vented oil cap thats small and unassuming I believe it'll be OK. Jim (http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag84/JimNolan/Photo01071309_1_zps5b1a659e.jpg)
Fair enough, and your logic is sound. I prefer the the adjustables and a little extra lift is good with the better head. It had seemed like the valve covers were more of an issue than they really are. Nice work, looking forward to hearing it run!
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Jim, not urgent but if you can find the gold formula I think it would be worthwhile for the members to have... Also, there may be a nice 63 Galaxie in my future! 8)
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Jim, not urgent but if you can find the gold formula I think it would be worthwhile for the members to have... Also, there may be a nice 63 Galaxie in my future! 8)
Bruce,
Your wish is my command.
Castilian Gold Ditzler Paint
Ditzler lists a color code for Castillian Gold as #32277.
DDL31842 QTY: 1 quart
Code, color, cumulative parts ,parts,
DMA346 black 50.0 50.0
DMA307 midas gold 62.0 12.0
DMA329 yellow 74.0 12.0
DMA384 yellow 144.0 70.0
DMA316 CRS. alu 228.0 84.0
DMA349 Fine alu 986.0 758.0
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I want to use my powered by Ford chrome covers I guess I will be making some spacers to make that happen with the T&D Edelbrock rocker I want to go with. I have made many before by using aluminum and cutting them out with a scroll saw my first mod always is full roller rockers for less deflection and more lift.
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fe66comet,
I would have had to raise mine at least 1". 1" would have made getting the valve cover off on the drivers side pretty near impossible with my brake booster. I'm not going there.
I found grommets that had built-in baffling to prevent PCV valves from getting too much oil on them. I'm using that on the passenger side and I'm also using the same size grommet on the drivers side with a 2" dia X 1.5" high K&N valve cover breather that's got a 3/4" insertion tube. That's as unassuming as I can find and it'll match my K&N air cleaner filter I intend to use. In case you wonder. I expect to add oil to the engine through that 3/4" opening using a funnel. That's not a bad trade-off for appearance benifits.
Good luck with your chrome original covers. There might be a difference between your covers and the Pent House GT covers also. Jim
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I do not have power brakes so I might have a little more room? But the covers are not much shorter than the tall Holley covers I have and they are not baffled, the twist on breather does that so I might have a little room to play with? Thanks Jon