Author Topic: Hot starting issues with 427 and weird smoke  (Read 1181 times)

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428Marauder

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Hot starting issues with 427 and weird smoke
« on: October 11, 2022, 06:21:28 PM »
Previous owner had warned me that it doesn’t like to start when hot. Had my first instance of that today where I had let it sit for about 90 minutes but it still was apparently too hot. I plan to switch out the starter with a RobbMc as cjshaker had suggested in another thread but wanted to discuss some weird smoke that I couldn’t figure out. So, with the hood up I was noticing some small puffs of smoke coming from the drivers side, like maybe around the exhaust manifold when it was almost, but not quite going to start. I could stand next to the car and try and start it in neutral while looking into the engine compartment but I could not see exactly where the smoke was coming from. It did eventually start and I had to force some gas through it to get it going and there was no smoke once it started running. I’ll try and get someone to help me later to pinpoint the source but I thought maybe someone here would have an idea? Car did smell like burnt tires when I got it home, but there’s other explanations for that. :)

ETA: Seems that 2 hours is the required cool down time. Started fine after 2 hours and no weird smoke. Also, it does have some kind of mini starter. I’m not sure what brand.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2022, 07:43:21 PM by 428Marauder »
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66FAIRLANE

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Re: Hot starting issues with 427 and weird smoke
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2022, 08:22:58 PM »
Coils can come and go with heat. Check for spark when hot and not starting.

428Marauder

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Re: Hot starting issues with 427 and weird smoke
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2022, 08:44:36 PM »
Yeah, I was just through what became an $1100 bill with my mechanic on my 428 for a problem we were sure was a carb issue and it was the coil. Was thinking about just putting in a new coil anyway. Any suggestions? I usually get Accel coils but open to others.
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The Real McCoy

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Re: Hot starting issues with 427 and weird smoke
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2022, 09:42:21 PM »
I looked through your original post am under the impression you have installed a new NAPA battery so the battery should not be a contributor to the problem. I assume ( I know, that’s dangerous) your problem is that starter struggles to turn the engine over fast enough to start. These are some things I would do in this situation.

1.  While performing the tests described below it would be advantageous to disable the ignition system so the engine does not start.  We are really trying to validate the operation of the starter, battery, and respective circuits so we don’t really want the engine to start.

2.   Connect a volt meter directly to the battery posts and have someone crank the engine. While the starter is engaged the voltmeter should maintain 11.6 or higher. If you just put a new battery in you really shouldn’t have to do this but do it anyway.

3.  Verify your battery negative (ground) cable is attached to the engine block.  Most FE’s attach to the lower front on the passenger side.

4.  Check for voltage drop on the positive cables. Connect voltmeter to the positive battery post and to the positive starter cable where it attaches to the starter. Hopefully you can access the starter terminal with the voltmeter lead, if it’s really difficult it might mean connecting a jumper wire to the starter terminal and routing the jumper wire to the voltmeter lead.  Have someone crank the engine and monitor the voltmeter. You Will probably see the voltmeter flicker but there shouldn’t be an actual reading. If you see 1 volt or higher where it’s steady enough to read it is an indication of voltage drop (bad connections) in the positive cables.  What is expected on a properly operating system is no reading or very low reading.

5.  Check for voltage drop on the negative (ground) cable. Connect voltmeter to the negative battery post and the case of the starter.  Use a jumper wire as described in step 3 if access is difficult.  Make sure paint on the starter case is not insulating and preventing a connection. Have someone crank the engine and monitor the voltmeter as described in step 3.  Any reading that is steady enough to read is an indication of voltage drop (bad connections) in the starter ground circuit, which is essentially the engine block and ground cable.

6.  If all the previous steps check out I would consider replacing the starter.

About your smoke….,  if it’s a steady plume of smoke rising it could be a clue to your starting problems. Bad grounds and/or connections can certainly emit a steady plume if smoke. (If it’s not a steady plume it’s probably not from an electrical cause).

I know your problem is most apparent when the engine is warm but there could be some advantages to doing some of these tests when it is cooled off. While doing the tests be aware of your aforementioned smoke and check your various cables and connections for abnormally high temperatures.  It would be normal and expected for the cables and starter to warm up as you are exercising the system, but, if you were to find a connection, cable or anything that is extremely hot, more so than all the other components that would be a red flag of a problem being present.

Hope this helps. Good luck.

One last thing, probably been mentioned already, make sure your initial timing is not advanced too much preventing it from starting when it’s warm.
63 1/2 Galaxie 500
428 CJ Stroker with 427 2x4 Intake, 427 Long Exhaust Manifolds, Quick Fuel Carbs and TKO 600.

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know, it’s what we know for sure that just ain’t so."                            Mark Twain

428Marauder

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Re: Hot starting issues with 427 and weird smoke
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2022, 11:36:38 PM »
Thanks for the advice. Yes, it was a steady plume of smoke like right after you put out a match. It may have been coming from the coil, just from heat. I will inspect more tomorrow.
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428Marauder

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Re: Hot starting issues with 427 and weird smoke
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2022, 11:33:49 AM »
Think I found the smoker. I’ll replace the coil and fix up that connection. Any suggestions on a coil for a 427 top oiler?

Pic: https://ibb.co/2FvGGhw
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TJ

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Re: Hot starting issues with 427 and weird smoke
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2022, 01:17:39 PM »
Think I found the smoker. I’ll replace the coil and fix up that connection. Any suggestions on a coil for a 427 top oiler?

Pic: https://ibb.co/2FvGGhw

You mean the bare wire shorting out on the bolt?  Wonder it didn't melt itself in two.

428Marauder

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Re: Hot starting issues with 427 and weird smoke
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2022, 03:35:18 PM »
Think I found the smoker. I’ll replace the coil and fix up that connection. Any suggestions on a coil for a 427 top oiler?

Pic: https://ibb.co/2FvGGhw

You mean the bare wire shorting out on the bolt?  Wonder it didn't melt itself in two.

Yeah, that would probably be bad. I’m not sure it was touching the bolt before. I may have moved it a little.
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428Marauder

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Re: Hot starting issues with 427 and weird smoke
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2022, 09:05:06 PM »
Looks like there’s an AC Delco coil for about $40 or a MSD for about $70. Might as well get the MSD right? Says it works with regular points.
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SReist

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Re: Hot starting issues with 427 and weird smoke
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2022, 09:38:10 AM »
If you can find an OE yellow top Ford coil and they are hard to beat. The new repro's not so much. Steve

gregaba

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Re: Hot starting issues with 427 and weird smoke
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2022, 12:09:13 PM »
The round MSD coils seem to work fine but the other one's are crap. I have replaced over 12 of them on my friends car's.
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Dr Mabuse

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Re: Hot starting issues with 427 and weird smoke
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2022, 10:30:47 AM »
For what it is worth, I had a hot start problem with my BMW 980cc motorcycle - the Bosch starter it came with may not be the same design as a Ford starter.

With the Bosch, it used bushings for the armature, and when they wear out, the armature scrapes on the field coils, creating a short, and heating the whole starter up.

I have a failed Ford starter that exhibited the same symptoms, and I suspect it was the same situation.

Clearance between the armature and field coils is very close (.001" or .002"?), so it doesn't take much bushing wear to create a short.

I had a local rebuilder repair my BMW starter. I suspect most modern mini starters use sealed armature roller bearings. If they do not, it may be a cost cutting feature for a price point sale.

Falcon67

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Re: Hot starting issues with 427 and weird smoke
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2022, 10:46:18 AM »
>With the Bosch, it used bushings for the armature, and when they wear out, the armature scrapes on the field coils, creating a short, and heating the whole starter up.
This is the situation I used to see with old big/round Ford starters when running headers.  Heat apparently wore the bushings quicker and caused starter drag when hot.  Switched to PMGR units as they became available and those issues went away.  Note - none of the PMGR units I've had - Summit Racing, Powermaster, etc - have bearings.  All use bushings.

Dr Mabuse

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Re: Hot starting issues with 427 and weird smoke
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2022, 11:29:50 AM »
This is the situation I used to see with old big/round Ford starters when running headers.  Heat apparently wore the bushings quicker and caused starter drag when hot.  Switched to PMGR units as they became available and those issues went away.  Note - none of the PMGR units I've had - Summit Racing, Powermaster, etc - have bearings.  All use bushings.

Interesting!

I went to the RobbMc website - he does not mention whether he uses bushings or sealed bearings. It must be, for some reason, that bushings are an industry standard?

Many years ago, I worked with an old-time parts man - he told me that Chrysler built the best starters (gear reduction / Whirly-Bird?), and the worst cars.

oldiron.fe

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Re: Hot starting issues with 427 and weird smoke
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2022, 12:31:01 PM »
                                                                                                                                                                      in the 60s when oem starters were only available -easy fix 1-a good starter checked out at a good shop field/armature 2-i used lubriplate on the cap bushing 3- polished  armature both ends 4- must use heavy cable batt/ground 5-little TRICK found ROLLER bearing for nose (had to drill a little bigger cap but proper fit to armature) made a little heat shield between starter and headers-would start any fe/385 even on 5/8-1/2 paved tracks when everything was 12/13 comp. ratio and really HOT after a long race --never wore out - the roller turned really easy/fast-even under load-far better than bushing  by far still have around someplace -the 460s at 12/13 comp ratio with big bore seemed to turn over the  hardest-but NO problem for the starter!!!                                                                                                          john-old iron
66' Fairlanes 427 (08/26/67- present)
66/67' Fairlanes
70' Mustang Fastback
66' Dually