Door Width

[FElony]

Sorry to interrupt you guys. Builder wants to put 12-foot wide doors on shop. Isn't that a tad narrow for parking cars side by side?

[The Real McCoy]

Sounds perfect for a couple Smart Cars.

Actually 16' wide is pretty standard for a double garage.

[babybolt]

I would go with an 18 foot wide door. 

A 16 will let you sneak in two cars side by side.  If you have one full size truck the extra two feet will help a bunch.

What builders don't like is the beam above the door.  If the wall is load bearing you might have to go with a laminated beam for the wider doors.

Two small doors side by side suck.

The new trucks ~2000 and newer are gigantic.

[FElony]

There will never be a truck in this garage. I think. The idea here is to put 6 cars side by side in a 60x30 without having to jack them sideways once they are in. This builder did a 40x30 around the block for a home-based mechanic who only puts one customer vehicle in each "bay" at a time. I don't think he got the fact that my situation is different, as most of the active work will be in the 22x22 existing garage that I can climate control much more easily. Thus the garage becomes the shop and the new building becomes a garage that stores certain cars I want out of the weather and several tons of parts up against the back wall.

The existing structure does have a 16-footer. The builder does all his own engineering in house, and he did not seem too crazy about having three 16-foot doors in a row. Perhaps that adds to engineering costs, I guess. I also have the option of 14-foot doors. Cars are about 6-foot wide, so better but still might not be plausible. Does anyone here have 14-footers? Feedback?

Lastly for the moment, what have you guys paid for 3000-lb 4-inch concrete lately? I'd like to put an additional pad in front of these doors so I can disassemble parts cars outside, but not in the dirt.

[mn67]

Here in MN we just paid 6.25 sqft for concrete with grading and class 5.

[Dan859]

Wait until the builder has to figure out a way to engineer in a stripper pole for the dancing girls. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_E7vC2VcRY

[Thumperbird]

I would work for the 16', that is standard around midwest anyways.
I have 9' foot singles now, used to have 16' double.
Can't imagine the frustration with 14's.
My shop door is a little over 7', very tight fit for car with mirrors.

The beam is possibly less of an issue than the footings, that might be builders concern.
Beams are easy, wider, thicker footings are more $ depending on soil type.

[chris401]

Sorry to interrupt you guys. Builder wants to put 12-foot wide doors on shop. Isn't that a tad narrow for parking cars side by side?

12' is pretty tight for two 19' to 21' long cars. The angle you get in the second car takes a couple extra feet in width. I think 16' to 18' would be better for a single door. It would give more wiggle room driving in the second car. As mentioned below he maybe more concerned about the ground under it. Having a 60' load bearing wall supported 6' to 12' of footer may be more than the land will hold up without cracking the floor. With that kind of span and weight there is a lot of engineering to consider. I halfway USED to know this stuff but if you do not stay knee deep in it you can forget some important points. My brother still does but he uses modern programs to figure jobs. These days I am the big brother who drives up and tells him it's wrong but can't prove it.

Typically 22 wide by 25 long is comfortable for two cars to be in the garage with the doors open without hitting anything. Sounds like your shop will be a better fit working mostly in the 22 X 22.

[C8OZ]

If you do add the pad in front, don't let them forget to install drains between the doors for you to connect gutters later.

[FElony]

OK, so I got the doors changed to 16 feet. Rain gutters I hadn't considered. The plan was to have the added pad angled away from the building so any water would just fall onto that and disperse around the perimeter. A gutter would concentrate rain water in one particular spot, probably flooding it. I don't have a dedicated runoff "path" back there. Anyway, that's something I think I'll put on the list of things to figure out after the fact.

One other point of consideration is air movement. Builder (BTW, a big pro-Ford anti-Chevy guy; nearly had a coronary looking around my yard) priced in one of those ceiling vents that has swing-open louvers that actuate when you turn on the attached fan. This, of course, requires that something is left open to have an air inlet. With all the catses and gopherses and many things with wings and stingers around here, leaving something open is not an option. Plus, in this climate having a fan running half the year is not quite economical.

However, and I haven't researched this yet, there should exist a solar-operated fan. One at each end in a push/pull sitch would run whenever the sun is out and cost nothing beyond the initial parts. Anybody do this?

The longest cars going in here would be in the 15.5-to-17' range (Mustang Torino). They will be backed in so any work on the front end would be in natural ambient light (door open), which I prefer over hanging fixtures when possible. One bay will have a second-level storage floor for relatively lightweight stuff, one will have shelving, and the last will have complete engines jammed in. This building will be 20 feet from the existing garage, which has its back door lined up exactly with the back door of the house 13 feet away. In sum, a somewhat decent close-range work environment.

I definitely appreciate all the comments so far. Any further suggestions for specs "at this stage of the game" are welcome. I'm in an Arizona desert. Hard pack soil, minimal-to-no ground shift. No snow, so roof only slightly pitched. Sixteen feet at center against fourteen-foot walls. Builder puts a sheeting notch in all his jobs. Basically, 3-inch raised section of the concrete around the perimeter where the walls fit into, that in theory keeps out rodents and water. I'll bet the scorpions and widows will take this as a personal challenge, however.

[Drew Pojedinec]

When I worked in the greenhouse industry, we had vents that opened automatically based on temperature. Heat expansion of the fluid would open, and a spring preload would control at what temperature.

I’d look in that direction for something.

[FElony]

When I worked in the greenhouse industry, we had vents that opened automatically based on temperature. Heat expansion of the fluid would open, and a spring preload we control at what temperature.

I’d look in that direction for something.

So, what you are saying is that I could take my old window room-size A/C unit that functions but has a shot compressor, yank the back components off, wire the relay that powered the condenser fan to close the circuit to the solar-fed fans, and therefore have a remote-controlled thermostat that only operates the fans at a certain temp, not all year 'round. Yes?

[Drew Pojedinec]

You asked about air inlet when a fan is on. That is what my response was geared toward. It is a nice system that requires no electricity for fully automatic function.
We also built many ridge vent systems like this and evaporative cooler systems.
My last greenhouse setup was 21,000 sq ft. Worked well in the Deep South.

Good luck.

[shady]

you need a Big Ass Fan. Google it. You could always substitute a big ass lot lizard holding a fan pointed at you.

[FElony]

You asked about air inlet when a fan is on. That is what my response was geared toward. It is a nice system that requires no electricity for fully automatic function.
We also built many ridge vent systems like this and evaporative cooler systems.
My last greenhouse setup was 21,000 sq ft. Worked well in the Deep South.

Good luck.

I appreciate your input because it got me thinking. The problem with "just" a ridge vent as you described (if I have this right) is that it just passively vents rising hot air without any forced air movement. That isn't going to cut it here. The garage at the former house (36x24, cinder block with dry wall) has a round duct in the ceiling where an evap used to be, removed when it became inop. In the summer, without the window A/C on, the inside temps would still get into triple digits. With outside heat enveloping the whole structure, the temp became basically homogeneous. Even the concrete floor was "very warm". Opening the small door made matters worse.

I imagine your buildings with workers inside had some kind of cooling system for them, and therefore the ridge vent would indeed evac rising heat.

In my case, this building will not have a cooler. Maybe a roll-around evap at best. Therefore, I see a mild airflow end-to-end as valid in removing (cutting down) heat emanating from the roof. I do like your idea of a thermal switch. The idea of using the old A/C is just my one brain cell at work. I suppose I could just use a home HVAC thermostat. It has also hinted to me that the solar panel could be hooked to several of these car batteries that I am always rotating around to keep them charged, and to operate the fans when the sun is down, but the inside temps are still high. Certain times of the year the triple digits can linger to the wee hours of the morning.

I like brainstorming grassroots situations, don't you?

[FElony]

you need a Big Ass Fan. Google it. You could always substitute a big ass lot lizard holding a fan pointed at you.

Yes, I do. And the valid point here is that, growing up in SoCal, it's not so much the heat that bothers me; it's stagnant air. It makes me sweat like the pig that I am. Oink.

The existing garage here does not yet have A/C. I have diddled around in there at 100º with two standing oscillating fans making for a little whirlwind action. No bitching. No oinking. Get me out of the whirlwind and I'm bacon in tennis shoes.

[Drew Pojedinec]

Yup. Love grass roots. I build pretty much everything. But yeah, that was the idea... toss out ideas. Obviously you need to figure what you can do in your situation.

I don’t bother heating or cooling my shop, but South Georgia  isn’t as intensely hot as Arizona.
I mostly have small fans to counter humidity. I hear ya on stagnant air, I can’t stand it.

[FElony]

Yup. Love grass roots. I build pretty much everything. But yeah, that was the idea... toss out ideas. Obviously you need to figure what you can do in your situation.

I don’t bother heating or cooling my shop, but South Georgia  isn’t as intensely hot as Arizona.
I mostly have small fans to counter humidity. I hear ya on stagnant air, I can’t stand it.

I've been researching solar powered fans in between posts. Found this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGf1bdVt9xw  It's a maybe IF one of the fans can have its direction reversed. Beyond that, I'm starting to wonder if, considering where I live, it might be a good idea to solarize the entire place. Therein, mostly LED lights and hand tools. The compressor, welder, blast cabinet, etc. will be in the small building, so no high-amperage stuff in the new place. If needed, there is an external GFI outlet on the corner of the house about 15 feet away that I can hook to straight through the man door. This would save me from jacking around with an ac subpanel. Another close neighbor has a huge building with several solar units on top. I will have to meander over there and pick his brain. I know little about solar.

[FElony]

There is a 30-foot long section of 6' high cinder block wall that has to be removed (this place had an inner yard sectioned off). The concrete guy is supposed to smack it with the Bobcat and haul the remains off. Now I wonder if I should "carefully" take it down and reuse the blocks to build a small closet for combustible/flammable liquids to hedge against possible catastrophe. Or to hide in when (((they))) come to take my guns. Sound reasonable?

[C8OZ]

Ah, Arizona! So yeah, skip all that gutter/drain nonsense I was peddling. In the southeast it's more about being able to open the doors on a rainy day without water splattering 3 feet in from the pad.

[Falcon67]

If you are not insulating the building, then powered vents and a Big Ass Fan are called for.  Ridge vent will work - but it's designed to work in conjunction with eve venting which is laid in with a ceiling in mind to isolate attic temps and air movement from the interior of the building.  If you are set on wide open height, open rafters, etc, then fans are all you get.  We get hot here and metal buildings even with insulate get hotter'n hell unless equipped with big ass AC unit(s).  Why I stick built and kept the ceiling low, personally.  I can keep 960 sq/ft in the 70s with only 27K BTU.

PS - 16' door with two post lift, handles two mid size cars no problem

[FElony]

Insulation is part of the package, but you are right they still get toasty. There are a fair amount of added buildings around here as the lots are 1.5 to 5 acres, and it seems that the overwhelming majority of them are metal. I originally wanted block but I can't find anyone to build one. Seems all the crews that do that are tied up on commercial jobs. I would personally try stick, but not crazy over dealing with trusses.
Not sure what the cost difference would be.

[FElony]

OK, thanks for the time, guys. Skies have cleared and I'm off to tow mucho cars still at the old house here. Then comes the fun part. Toodles!

[Thumperbird]

Powered thermostatically controlled or otherwise roof vents are a dime a dozen.
Just harden screening on the inside to keep the critters out, a second layer will take care of bees even.
Unless you are incredibly meticulous about sealing the structure there will be plenty of small places for inlet air, no need for a planned supply really.