lost oil pressure due to filter change?

[Landlubberatsea]

Hi all, Jan from Solvesborg, Sweden here.
First of all, thanks to all of you sharing your thoughts and wisdoms on this forum. I have been reading it for the last two years and It's been very educational for a garage amateur like me!

I have a 68 Torino GT with a 390 which I imported to Sweden from the States two years ago. Last year was my first cruising season and I noticed that the oil pressure was a bit low especially on idle, around 10 psi, but as I understood it from reading on various forums this was not so unusual on the FE engines and as long as the pressure increased when stepping on it I shouldn't have to be too worried about it.
This year when it was time to bring her out from winter rest I treated her to a oil and filter change. I filled 6 qts of Kendall GT 20-50 (thought the extra qt would help the pressure a bit) and put on a Fram shortie filter. Afterwards, when I had been driving a while and the engine was nice and warm, I noticed while rolling around a corner at idle that the pressure was down to 0! I pulled over afraid that I had done a poor job tightening the plug or filter. Checked that all looked ok underneath and started again, pressure was still poor but at least not zero and it increased when pumping the gas so I thought it was the same situation as last year and since driving season is short over here I kind of shut my eyes for the problem and thought that I could address the issue in the autumn.
This was as you probably understand a stupid decision. The problem became worse and when I took off the pan to check pump and pickup I noticed that I had now ended up with worn down bearings and crank.
My question now is if the filter could have anything to do with loosing that last bit of pressure?, because I read on another forum about this happening to another guy changing to a Fram shortie filter. If so, are there other filters as well out there which you should avoid?

The good news with all this is that I will finally get my thumbs out and realise my 445 dreams  / Jan

[Nightmist66]

First off, welcome aboard! Sounds like a cool car. Sounds strange that oil pressure dropped after adding 20W50. If clearances were "normal", there should be no problem w/ 10W30. I understand you're wanting to run the thicker oil to check on the oil pressure situation. Adding an additional quart of oil will not help with oil pressure, unless it is so low that it is sucking air. With 5 quarts, that should not have been an issue. Anyway, do you know what kind of oil was used before and which filter you removed? Was the oil sparkly/metallic in any way when you drained the old oil? As far as the list of oil filters I would avoid, Fram is at the top of the list. Is there clearance problems that you need to run a shorter filter? If not, the Motorcraft FL1-A is a great filter. Purolator, Royal Purple, and Wix are also good filters. If you need the extra clearance, the Motorcraft FL-300 or equivalent will work for a shorter filter. The Motorcraft FL-400S or equivalent will work for a little shorter and narrower filter from the FL-1A. We have used the Motorcraft FL-400S and I currently have the Purolator PSL 20195 on mine for the header clearance. The short filter alone should not have been a problem, obviously quality. Again, I point my finger towards the Fram. JMO. Glad to hear about that 445 though

[Landlubberatsea]

Hi Jared, thanks for the reply.

Yes, I used the thicker oil to help with the pressure. Do not know what kind of oil there was before and I think it was a motorcraft filter but I'm not 100% sure.
Oil looked ok when I changed it, black of course but no metal that I could see. When I pulled the pan later there was a couple of small flakes in the oil but the oil wasn't sparkling. There was a bit of grey sludge in the bottom though. Filter is probably not the rootcause (main bearing clearance, worn down cam lobe sludging up the pump?) just thought if any of you had experienced any significant drop in pressure with certain filters.
Thanks for recommendations on filters, think I will go back to motorcraft. Just wasn't sure when ordering over internet how long the filters were so I took the one described as shorter to be on the safe side with ground and headers clearance.
Thanks again for helping me/Jan

[ScotiaFE]

Welcome Jan.
With a stock FE type oil pan you want 6 quarts in the pan and a full size oil filter with one quart in the filter,
and fill the filter before you install it.
This will give you a total of about 7 quarts in a stock system.
 

[Landlubberatsea]

Thanks Scotia, yes that's what I did. First I filled the filter, the shortie came in a bit short of a full quart, and then six quart in the tank. I actually did this twice because after emptying out the old oil I filled up with some cheaper 20w50 without the zinc additive and then I ran the engine hot before emptying again and changed filter and filled the zddp(?) oil. Well all that fuzz didn't give me much in return

[Autoholic]

I would highly recommend you do some reading and research oil in general. I don't think 20W50 would be a good choice. That is a very thick oil, which means you'll have to let the engine warm up for a really long time before that oil is viscous enough. That is your real concern, viscosity. What good is oil pressure if your temps are too low? You won't be getting oil where it needs to go. The first number is the more important number, as it relates to the cold viscosity and 80-90% of your engine wear happens when the oil is cold and not flowing well. I'm away from my computer but when I get home I'd be happy to share some resources. Your problems could be due to running an improper oil weight. As always, I could be wrong but I try to help when I can. Cheers.

[Landlubberatsea]

Hi Joe, thanks for replying.
Have I understood it right if I say like this; Yes I get the pressure up but since the viscosity is so high when cold it won't reach all the places it should and therefore I'm wearing down the engine during cold starts? A kind of false safety.
Well, if that's so then I will have to rethink a little. When I were to buy oil I asked my buddies with more experience of old v8's and they all recommended to use 20W 50 in old cars. Must say though that what you are saying do make sense in my ears. Especially since my engine was rebuild a couple of years ago (before I bought it though so I do not know much about it) and not driven much since. My friends recommendations are probably based on experience from old worn cars with greater play in bearings etc. where a 20w50 might be better (correct?).
Any thoughts on the drop in pressure with certain filters?

I attach a couple of pictures on the no 4 mains and bearing as well.

Don't recall it being fun to be in school on saturdays but it's actually quite ok when it's FE's your learning about All please continue to throw your wisdom at me 

[RJP]

As said above  Fram filters are junk and they would be the 1st place I'd look for low oil pressure. I've had 2 Fram oil filters fail and both with the same results, low oil pressure. I now run Wix or Baldwin. Other Fram filters seem to be ok, like the fuel and air filters.  It is very possible that the Fram filter did not go into bypass as it should when cold and that could have been the cause of the wiped out bearings. 20-50 oil would have only made it worse.

[Joe-JDC]

Are those pictures of your #4 main bearings?  If so, then you have another problem besides low oil pressure.  Those bearings are worn out, and might even be the wrong size for the crankshaft.  More information??   Joe-JDC

[RJP]

One other thing that jumps out at me is the lower bearing...It has no oil groove. I haven't seen those in years and mostly in FT truck engines.  When did you say the engine was rebuilt?

[Autoholic]

I will second the opinion on FRAM. They are garbage. I would look at the filters that companies like Royal Purple and AMSOIL sell, filters like EA and WIX. I would also look at Royal Purple, Mobile 1 and AMSOIL for the oil you want to run in a classic engine. AMSOIL sells two oils meant for older cars, like yours. The oil is called Z-Rod, having high levels of ZDDP which is needed in engines that sit a lot. High zinc levels in your oil will prevent corrosion when you leave your car sit, like winter storage for example. The two choices for Z-Rod are 10W30 and 20W50, if I remember correctly.

Below is a really good source to help you understand oil grades and what might work best for you...

http://www.positivespin.us/MotorOil.htm

And here is another resource if you want to really dive into the topic...

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-101/


20W50 is probably used in old engines for the following reason: ring seal. Old, worn out engines tend to have worn out piston rings, requiring a thicker viscosity oil to seal properly. As you will learn in the first link, the second number doesn't have as huge of an impact on how the oil flows once it is warmed up. The first number though dictates how well the oil flows when cold and this is your real concern. Oil pressure gets the oil where it needs to go, the oil viscosity and temperature is what enables the oil to lubricate everything. Thick of katchup and honey, which one will flow quicker to cover your gears? Both could be pumped at the exact same pressure, because the pressure is what is moving it forwards.

[Nightmist66]

I have heard that some Fram had the bypass valve come loose and block the hole, leading to severe engine damage. As stated the 20W50 is too thick for what that engine "should" need. However you should not necessarily "starve" for oil on a cold start with 20W50, because the oil should at least have some kind of oil film left between the clearances after shut down. It will take a little longer for the 20W50 to reach bearings, etc., but it still shouldn't starve. One thing, when you had or may still have the pan off is see if the oil pump shaft is broken. Possibly leaking/sucking air around pickup, or worn pump? If the pickup was sucking air before the pump that may also explain why the 20W50 dropped down to no oil pressure(harder to pick up) Take a close look at the pickup/bolts and tube, the pump driveshaft, and see if you can find anything wrong with the oil filter. The 20W50 should really only be needed if bearing clearances permit. I don't think it is as much for ring seal as it was an older practice to run larger clearances and thicker viscosity oils.  Anymore the way to go is tighter clearances and thinner oil. On a stock rebuild or mild to moderate street/strip, the 10W30 or maybe even 10W40 should be more than sufficient. Good luck.

[Autoholic]

"I don't think is is as much for ring seal as it was an older practice to run larger clearances and thicker viscosity oils."

Which is ring seal, but we're beating a dead horse now with semantics. You are correct however in pointing out the larger tolerances used back then.

Having looked at those pictures, I would say it might be in your best interest to tear down and rebuild the engine. Know everything about the engine and replace parts as needed. I'm not a pro and MOST of these guys have loads of experience that far outweighs whatever I know. All I can suggest is what I would do if I was in your shoes, dealing with that engine. You've got some serious wear on that main bearing and that would be a red flag in my book.

Good luck

[Nightmist66]

"I don't think is is as much for ring seal as it was an older practice to run larger clearances and thicker viscosity oils."

Which is ring seal, but we're beating a dead horse now with semantics. You are correct however in pointing out the larger tolerances used back then.

Having looked at those pictures, I would say it might be in your best interest to tear down and rebuild the engine. Know everything about the engine and replace parts as needed. I'm not a pro and MOST of these guys have loads of experience that far outweighs whatever I know. All I can suggest is what I would do if I was in your shoes, dealing with that engine. You've got some serious wear on that main bearing and that would be a red flag in my book.

Good luck

Joe, I meant to say larger bearing clearances, but yes, pistons and rings as well. You understood what I meant. Also, as far as us recommending things, it's always easier for us to spend someone elses money, lol. Although we will try to point down the path of most importance and what is absolutely necessary.

[Landlubberatsea]

The replies keep coming in and I'm freaking loving it, thanks for spending some of your weekend time on my problems. This is why I have spent two years here as guest, you are awesome (was that to much?)

Hi Joe-JDC, yes thats the no 4 and as you pointed out the bearings are now junk.
Is it the radius wear that tells you that they might be the wrong size? Is there any way to tell if they are worn down due to the oil pressure or if they are worn down and causing the low oil pressure?
As I said last year (first year for me with the car) it was around 10 psi at idle (hot) and 20-30 psi when doing 40-60 mph. As I recall it, it became worse over time. This year after oil and filter change I was down to 0 at hot idle and 15-20 when cruising. It has always responded though when I have revved it (oil pressure vise that is). Eventually it started to knock on idle and then I had to bite the bullit and stop driving it. When I pulled the pan I couldn't see too much sparkling metal in the oil but there was quite a bit of grey smooth sludge in the bottom (material grinded of the cam or crank?) The pump, Melling M57, looked ok and sat tight and so did pick up and gaskets in between. Driveshaft was also ok as well as clearance to pan bottom.

RJP - thanks for joining, I believe the engine was rebuilt in this decade, maybe around 2012 or so.

Autoholic/Joe- Thanks for the info I will read the links you posted and look up if I can get the Z-rod in Sweden.
 
I have more pictures of the engine and oil but they are at home and right now I am of at work on the North Sea so I cannot get hold of it (can post some later in my members projects thread though)

Not so good that all this happened in the middle of the short driving season but hooray I get to build a 445 and since the engine isn't in running condition even my girlfriend supports spending big money on the engine since she wants to drive it too and recognizes that the car without engine is not worth much 

For info, I will start a new thread under members projects. Would be really thankful if the forum members took their time (as if I could ask for more of that ) and maybe came with some answers to a few questions I have in conjunction with the engine build. Thanks/Jan   Ps do not worry about spending my money, you will never be as good at it as I am my self  Ds.

[Autoholic]

In terms of spending money, here are my thoughts...

1. It doesn't cost all that much to tear down and rebuild a motor. You're spending money on gaskets and hardware, if everything is ok.

2. Tearing down and rebuilding the motor when you see something that is concerning will save you money in the long run. Running the engine until it destroys itself results in needing a whole new motor.

Here is a rule of thumb for oil pressure. 10 PSI per 1000 RPM. I keep running into this as being the proper amount of oil pressure needed based off of your RPM.

Since you will be rebuilding the engine, take your time to make sure the right parts are used and it is built right. You could even use this as an opportunity to modify the displacement, up or down. However I think you are near the top of what is possible in a FE. At the very least, you can check all of the oil passages, de-burr holes and massage / file them to line up better.

[Nightmist66]

The 10psi per 1000rpm is a decent rule of thumb, but I feel anything over 60-65psi is wasted and is costing horspower. JMO

[Autoholic]

Not if you are running a high RPM engine, however I do agree that up to say 7 or 8000 rpm, the need is linear and then it tapers off to say 5 PSI per each additional 1000 RPM. Motorcycle engines run to 14,000 RPM regularly and I don't think they are using 140 PSI, but I don't know all the ins and outs of motorcycles. For the needs of most pushrod engines, I would say the 10 PSI per 1000 RPM is spot on.

[babybolt]

The last time I had an engine like that, where the bearings are worn down and smooth, was an engine that suffered a mechanical fuel pump failure.  The pump diaphragm tears slightly and fuel gets into the oil.  The gas trashes the bearings and rings very quickly.

[RJP]

Check the back side of the main bearing. There should be some stamped info. If they are orig FoMoCo bearings they will have  "Ford"  or FoMoCo stamped in the shell. There also should be a date, some had 'em, some didn't.  Aftermarket [rebuilt engine] should have the brand or some other stamping indicating who made 'em. As I posted passenger car FE main bearings have a 360deg groove, your lower bearing does not. Tells me it is either a truck [FT engine] or someone found a rare set of bearings. On worn engines oil pressure is overrated  When I got my 66 Galaxie/428 the engine had no oil pressure at hot/idle and only about 20-25 lbs at freeway speed. No knocks, rattles, ticking or other strange noises, engine ran great but it was that annoying red light on the dash when I came to a stop. No flickering, just a solid red light. Being the skeptic I am I didn't believe that red light and put a known accurate mechanical gauge on the engine...Damn, should have believed that little red light and saved me all the trouble of installing that gauge...It was right, gauge needle lay on the pin as if the engine was not running. Being the cheap bastard I am I dropped the pan, rolled a set of mains in as well as rod bearings and a new Melling oil pump. Problem solved, 30-35 lbs idle/hot and 60-65 lbs at freeway speed. Ran it like that until it was time to go thru the engine.

[Landlubberatsea]

Babybolt - thanks for info. I will check the pump when I take the engine apart.
RJP - interesting info, I will check the bearings when I get home in a couple of weeks as well as the cast no of the block.
If it turns out to be a FT, will that have any affect on my stroker plans i.e. is it still suitable for 445 cui?

Damn this is interesting, I wish I was home so I could lift out the engine right away

[RJP]

Actually the MD or HD FT block would be preferred for a stroker. FTs generally are cast a little heavier and core shift was minimized as these engines had to survive for hundreds of thousands of miles under much more severe conditions than a FE passenger engine. Even though most if not all FT engines were governed to 4400-4500 rpm some would be run at wide open throttle a large percentage of their service life and made to live on the cheapest gas available as they only got 4-5 mpg loaded. Most FT blocks were cast using better iron alloy, [more manganese & tin if my information is correct]  all should have the 3 rib crank webbing, a big plus with a stroked engine.  FT heads suck, more suited as a quality door stop or yacht mooring material. Small valves, choked down intake port [Ford's way of limiting rpm] and a big combustion chambers, IIRC about 78-81cc as FT engines only had about 7.2 to 1 compression ratio, large chambers and a very deep dish 4 ring piston. Heads will not interchange with a passenger car intake manifold as the heat riser is much different than pass. car heads. Exhaust valves had positive rotators and seats were hardened inserts. MD-HD Cranks were steel.

[Landlubberatsea]

Ok, so a FT block could actually be the thing to hope for then. I have some info on the other parts, heads are C8AE-H and intake is C6AE 9425 G. Saw the number on the block when I took of the pan and I believe it started with C7.
If it turns out to be a FT will there be any problem with fitting 60069 heads to it?

[Qikbbstang]

One heck of an amusing thread.  I can't help but laugh at the 15,000rpm not requiring 150psi.  A key purpose of more oil pressure as the revs go up is to overcome the centrifugal force of oil slung out of the bearings. Engines with large crankshaft bearing diameters require more oil pressure to overcome that force, small crank diameter dimensions are content with less pressure.
          The use of short filters is exponentially wrong. Less media means higher delta-p, higher velocity through the media, lower efficiency at capturing/retaining particles etc   
     

[cjshaker]

I'm late to the party here, but I will be #6 (or is it #7, 8, 9 or 10?) to add that Fram filters are J.U.N.K.!!

2 years ago, I literally had one where the guts blew apart internally and stopped ALL oil pressure (it wasn't my car). I couldn't figure out why. I thought maybe the oil pump had failed, but after starting it the 2nd time, pressure suddenly reappeared. After doing an oil and filter change, I found the damaged filter had blown apart and sent filter material throughout the engine. The pump built pressure until the plugged filter literally just collapsed and disintegrated. The old filter was only a few months old and had very little miles on the oil change. Within a year the engine was junk, rods knocking like crazy.

I saved and still have that filter so I can show everybody I know, and warn them to NEVER USE A FRAM FILTER!!!

[Nightmist66]

I have seen several people cut open brand new Fram filters to find that where the pleat ends join with a metal clamp, one side slid during assembly and you can look right through the end gap. How effective is that for filtering? I think the micron rating just went up.....

[Autoholic]

As for oil filter research, I'll just leave this here. You can check out each filter and how it is constructed.

http://www.gmtruckcentral.com/articles/oilfilterstudy.html

[Qikbbstang]

cjshaker you ought to contact Fram and document your losses. You are certainly deserving of a replacement motor and labor etc. By all means contact your auto parts supplier and inform them you have had an engine failure due to a defective filter and you want restitution.  Worst I could see is you may need to file small claims to get their attention.

Very unusual to have anyone's filter fail.  I'm totally stumped trying to understand your explanation of what happened.  Most confusing oil always flows from the outside of the element to the inside, then out the center tube and on to the bearings etc. The center tube being perforated metal is designed to withstand high differential pressure before collapse/implosion. The center tube supports the pleated media around it.  This would mean in your case the filter media imploded (it can not explode -see below) which tends to blind thing off badly as the filter media shreds/bits etc would be literally extruded through the engines oil passages and on into the bearings, lifters rockers etc.  How in hell an engine's oil system could ingest filter media and "return to normal oil pressure" to me is impossible - you'd have filter media stuffed like packing seal material into the bearings. To me there's no friggen motor on earth that could survive/run with wads of filter media stuffed into its bearings, hyd lifters, rockers etc..  How any motor would re-start and return to normal pressure after the above "packing job" defies logic.  IF by some wacky ass screw up and the filter, any filter is flowed backwards yes the element would certainly explode - filters do not flow ass-backwards and that indeed would rupture/explode the element inside the can in short order. How about taking some pics and posting them to show everyone?..... (you dam well need to send pics to Fram anyway)  I presume you have pictures of the bearings stuffed with the remnants of the exploded filter and those should be posted also.

Re: "2 years ago, I literally had one where the guts blew apart internally and stopped ALL oil pressure (it wasn't my car). I couldn't figure out why. I thought maybe the oil pump had failed, but after starting it the 2nd time, pressure suddenly reappeared. After doing an oil and filter change, I found the damaged filter had blown apart and sent filter material throughout the engine. The pump built pressure until the plugged filter literally just collapsed and disintegrated. The old filter was only a few months old and had very little miles on the oil change. Within a year the engine was junk, rods knocking like crazy.

I saved and still have that filter so I can show everybody I know, and warn them to NEVER USE A FRAM FILTER!!!

[cjshaker]

Let me describe it clearer, BB. The van lost all oil pressure. From what I see of the filter, somehow the media inside plugged solid. The only thing I can think of is cheap media. I believe it was Quaker State that had a lawsuit some years back due to it having some sort of parafin in its media and somehow it would plug up. Anyway, it must have built enough internal pressure that it COLLAPSED internally and immediately restored oil pressure, sending chunks of media into the oil stream. And I assure you that the VANS gauge went right back to normal, so it wasn't some $100 gauge that read in detailed pounds. Remember, an oil sending unit is typically very near the filter, so it's reading pressure directly from the pump and not somewhere down the oils path. When I pulled it off, there were big chunks of the paper like media sitting on the top of the center port, that I could literally pull out very easily with my fingers. So yes, it didn't explode, but imploded. Bad choice of words on my part.

I have not cut the filter apart, but it's easy to see the internal destruction of the filter. I've always been interested to see what it looks like inside, so I might just cut it open and take some pictures and post them for all to see.

[Qikbbstang]

Total confusion trying to comprehend how/why there could be filter media that managed to extrude itself through the filters perforated metal center core tube and be as you stated: "big chunks of the paper like media sitting on the top of the center port, that I could literally pull out very easily with my fingers."
    Considering that the nipple in the block/filter adaptor screws into that plate in the spin on flange of the filter I can only figure you had a major filter failure. I'm serious I would not cut that filter open because you have it's ruptured guts hanging out of the outlet. This is friggen unheard of. You need to think about the manufacturer paying to totally rebuild your motor