FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: MeanMofakee on August 24, 2016, 04:01:37 PM
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I haven't read anybody talk about the distributor gear oiling mods done on an FE block like they do on a 385 block. Is it a complete different setup, can't be done,or doesn't need it?
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I don't do any mods on any block for extra distributor oiling. Never had an issue there.
I think most guys experience distributor gear wear when they install new gears and try to line the roll pin holes back up....
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I don't think the FE needs an oiling modification there, I've never used one.
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I read a post about FE oil mods in the main saddle weakening strength. I have two out there, what max power level should I advise? Doug mentioned opening up the main bearing instead of the block. With what I have here I was thinking a Dremel would be the least destructive, then widdle the edges down. Without a good fixture I think a small rat tail file would still distort the brass some. What is your method?
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I normally use a round chain saw blade sharpening file for any bearing mods. It takes some work but is less aggressive than most round files. Always pushing from the bearing side towards the back side then a light polish with a ultra fine pad. Works for me. Much eaiser to put a slight chamfer on the block at the opening.
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Chris, you just need to blend in the hole at the surface of the saddle. No use in carving on it all the way down. I flare the hole out to meet the bearing, but it doesn't go deep at all.
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This about how far you are taking them?
(http://i1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff469/white65ford/FE%20Parts/KIMG1197.jpg) (http://s1237.photobucket.com/user/white65ford/media/FE%20Parts/KIMG1197.jpg.html)
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That's about right. No need to hog them out.
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Looks adequate.
Thanks
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In regard to center-oiler block mods, I did an FE engine series for Mustang Illustrated Magazine some years ago. All the machine work was done in the Roush Prototype shop.
I started out with the thought that we've learned a bunch since the basic lines for the FE engine were laid down and it would be of benefit to 'drag the FE engine into the 21st century.'
Jack Roush had many fingers into the various performance offices at Ford and made offers to many of the original engineers. So a number of them started a second career working for Roush. I had access to them as a sort of 'brain trust' and sought suggestions from them.
We did such things as taking a center-oiler block and cutting it up to see how much space we had between oil galleries and water jackets, for instance.
The result of all the eyeballing and head scratching was that we opened all the galleries slightly and did a bit of whittling elsewhere. (The purpose of the work was to create a street engine of over 500 HP and keep it easily drivable.)
Probably the most significant change to the oiling passages was that we bored out the cam tunnel, re-grooved the bulkheads, and pressed-in a set of roller cam-bearings. Since the necessity for lubing the cam journals was negated---rollers are easily lubed by splash---ALL the oil could be directed to the mains.
I used a C4 PI block. The lifter silos were set for oiling---the fore/aft galleries were drilled at the factory---but the little tower in the back of the valley had not been opened. We drilled there and then tapped for set-screws. Now we had oil for the solid roller lifters.
We used screw-in plugs everywhere and restricted the top-end oil with drilled set-screws at the head-block interface.
In every case, the work done was at the suggestion of the engineers who directed the FE performance program in the first place.
KS
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A little crude but they do the job. On the roller camshaft bearings was there any measured loss with the extra rotating mass or did friction loss balance out?
(http://i1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff469/white65ford/FE%20Parts/KIMG1202.jpg) (http://s1237.photobucket.com/user/white65ford/media/FE%20Parts/KIMG1202.jpg.html)
(http://i1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff469/white65ford/FE%20Parts/KIMG1203.jpg) (http://s1237.photobucket.com/user/white65ford/media/FE%20Parts/KIMG1203.jpg.html)
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Here is a Ford service bulletin from 1965 that explains that the main bearing block oiling hole to bearing hole misalignment is not an issue that needs to be fixed.
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Here is a Ford service bulletin from 1965 that explains that the main bearing block oiling hole to bearing hole misalignment is not an issue that needs to be fixed.
Been there from the start. 1958 332
(http://i1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff469/white65ford/1958%20332%20FE/KIMG1207.jpg) (http://s1237.photobucket.com/user/white65ford/media/1958%20332%20FE/KIMG1207.jpg.html)
(http://i1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff469/white65ford/1958%20332%20FE/KIMG1208.jpg) (http://s1237.photobucket.com/user/white65ford/media/1958%20332%20FE/KIMG1208.jpg.html)
(http://i1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff469/white65ford/1958%20332%20FE/KIMG1209.jpg) (http://s1237.photobucket.com/user/white65ford/media/1958%20332%20FE/KIMG1209.jpg.html)
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A little crude but they do the job. On the roller camshaft bearings was there any measured loss with the extra rotating mass or did friction loss balance out?
We used the sort of setscrews that turn in using an Allen wrench instead of the saw kerf, but otherwise just like that. I don't quite catch the 'extra rotating mass' reference. The main purpose was to provide an encircling surface with no bleed-off of oil at the cam journals.
The rollers were sourced from the FPP catalog. They are intended for the 385 series block but the cam journals are the same size for both engines. Opening the cam tunnel is only necessary due to the combined extra thickness of the rollers and the outer race. The race has no opening to oil the cam, of course, so all the oil flows around the outside of the race in the opened-up groove in the bulkheads. The solid cam is based on a steel blank so that worked just fine.
KS
(http://i1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff469/white65ford/FE%20Parts/KIMG1202.jpg) (http://s1237.photobucket.com/user/white65ford/media/FE%20Parts/KIMG1202.jpg.html)
(http://i1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff469/white65ford/FE%20Parts/KIMG1203.jpg) (http://s1237.photobucket.com/user/white65ford/media/FE%20Parts/KIMG1203.jpg.html)
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I saw a 429 the other day with roller bearings. I was curious if there was any measurable torque loss keeping all those small rollers rotating vs the friction drag of the camshaft riding on the oil and fixed bearings.
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IMO, the benefit from a roller cam bearing is more oil control. Since the bearings are only oiled by splash, all the oil that's normally headed for the cam bearings from the main feed is kept in the mains.
I will say this...even with 830 lb valve springs, an engine with roller cam bearings will roll over by hand without much effort. Just not sure if it's measurable on a dyno or in the car, since a cam in a normal situation would be riding on a wedge of oil.
(http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u267/shellvalleyowner/photo%20221_zpsqy9mvbvj.jpg)
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I'm glad the cam bearing question came up.
In a side oiler, if roller cam bearings are being used, is there no reason for the cam oil galleries since the cam is splash oiled? Or would you neck the galleries down?
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With a side oiler and roller cam bearings, there is no need for cam oiling passages.
KS
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Right, there's no where for the oil to go.....it hits the bearing cage of the roller bearing.
If you're talking about the lifter galleys, then I would still leave those open for the lifters/pushrods/rockers to get oil. Roller cam bearings won't allow oiling through the heads on a side oiler, unless you carve a groove under the bearing for the oil to get around and head upwards.
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I was speaking about the cam as I am not at all familiar with roller cam bearing construction.
Does the cage of the roller bearing block of the oil passage anyway, so no need to plug?
Or would the oil just pour through with nothing to regulate it.
Looks like we're writing and editing at the same time. Ok I get it now. Thanks
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BTW, I sat out in my garage the other day with my new block and a long zip tie trying to make sure I understand the side oiler oiling system.
There's not to much online about the ins and outs of it. Does anyone know a good piece of reference material? Just trying to make sure I understand all the finer points.
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BTW, I sat out in my garage the other day with my new block and a long zip tie trying to make sure I understand the side oiler oiling system.
There's not to much online about the ins and outs of it. Does anyone know a good piece of reference material? Just trying to make sure I understand all the finer points.
Strangely enough, this Chris Craft link does show a neat Ford diagram on a side oiler's galley path, down a few posts:
http://commanderclub.com/forum/topics/427-difference-between-a-side-oiler-and-top-oiler
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Even in otherwise excellent posts such as the CC info, you'll notice errors such as the one post says that cross-bolts came (only) with side-oilers. OOPS!!!
KS
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Yes Ken, you are quite right. I've found that it's rare to find almost any series of FE posts where everything is factually correct!
I've often said, on the other Forum, we should have a page where only fine-tooth combed details should be posted, not subject to dispute or change, for all FE'ers to use.
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Let me ask you guys another question regarding side oilers.
On the front lower driver side there is a threaded hole that lines up with the side gallery which services the mains (see picture).
Is this just left over from drilling the side gallery?
(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/turbohunter1/IMG_3474.jpg)
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In a word, Yes, I believe it is.
KS
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Correct! That is from the gun-drilling operation for the side-oiler gallery. I've seen the same tooling for other engine families and it's pretty cool.
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The oiling path is different depending on the block.
Your aftermarket blocks do it several different ways. The BBM blocks have a galley that runs up the front of the block diagonally (you can see it in your picture). It's an offshoot from the main side galley and runs up to the lifter valley like a staircase.....diagonally one way, then diagonally back the other way to meet the center lifter galley. Your front plugs in the lifter valley will be cleanouts for those. From there, the oil runs back to the back, into the crossover, then back towards the front to feed the lifters. Of course the mains/rods/cam are fed by each individual galley branching off from the "side oiler" galley running along the side of the block.
Your Pond blocks will not have that front diagonal passage. The first diagonal passage will take off from the main galley and head up, but it's a blind hole and stops near the top of the block. It does not connect with the passages in the lifter valley. Instead, the oil runs down the side, feeding the mains/rods/cam, then up the rear of the block, and to the front in the lifter galleys.
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Thank you guys very much.
Brent that's what I was looking for as the oil path on this block (BBM) didn't match up with the online diagrams.
Ok one more question. I plan on calling Doug to ask him this but the plug that POP makes for this hole is very loose in the BBM block. I know that it is a special Ford thread in the original blocks and I'm assuming that BBM has changed the thread. Haven't had time to match it up yet. Any experience with this?
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3/8" NPT.
Also, BBM includes a threaded hole in the rear of the block that is supposed to make it look like an original S/O block oil pressure bypass....but it's totally non-functional....so just plug it.
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Thank you very kindly.