TFS or Cobra Jet Heads

[410bruce]

Okay, right off the bat from strictly a performance standpoint, the TFS wins hands down. I know that.

However, in my particular case, I already have the heads and CJ intake manifold. The intake is in nice shape, just needs a good cleaning and some paint. The heads on the other hand, are in bad shape. One has been dropped and has cracks needing repair on one end at the valve cover mating surface, nowhere near the ports, valves or chambers. The other head was damaged at about the same point and has already been repaired.
I'm sure they'll need guides and hardened exhaust seats. Will need to buy valves, springs, retainers and keepers.
The part numbers on both heads are illegible on one and nearly so on the other. They are worth zero to anyone looking for restoration parts.
If I can get them repaired and ready to go for a grand or so, I think it would be worth it. Maybe even send them out to Joe Crane (if he would even be interested) for some port clean up.

The engine is a 434 inch 428 pump gas street engine with Auto Tec pistons from Brent designed with the TFS heads in mind for a compression ratio of 10-10.5:1 if I remember correctly.
It's going in my '67 Cougar with a Toploader 4-speed.
I'd really like 500 horsepower, which according to Brent is no problem with the TFS heads and Performer RPM intake along with the pretty mild custom cam I already have from him.
I realize I'll not get that with the factory iron stuff but I'd sure like to get as close as possible with it.

The reason I'm throwing this out there is, I already have the CJ parts and would not have to spend the extra cash (maybe between 2500-3000?) for the TFS heads, Performer RPM and rocker stands/assembly for the heads.
If I don't use the Cobra Jet stuff on this build, they'll probably never get used. And, as someone mentioned on my other thread, I could always swap heads and intake later.

Given the factoids presented above, if you were in my position, what would you do?

As always, thank you for any input and/or advise, guys.

[turbohunter]

Right off the bat let me tell you what I got in my CJ heads. $1200 so far. They had to repair them as yours need. Left the original valves in.
With what you want you may have more in them. Also installing hardened seats may be a no no depending on your machinist. I have read of some that will do it but many won’t. There’s no material behind the seats to support the work. Is it possible? Yes but .....

[410bruce]

Right off the bat let me tell you what I got in my CJ heads. $1200 so far. They had to repair them as yours need. Left the original valves in.
With what you want you may have more in them. Also installing hardened seats may be a no no depending on your machinist. I have read of some that will do it but many won’t. There’s no material behind the seats to support the work. Is it possible? Yes but .....

Thanks Marc. My machinest does have experience installing seats in FE heads.
I think one of the heads already has exhaust seats installed. I guess I should have him look at that head and see if they were installed correctly or not. I may be done before I begin.   

[turbohunter]

There is a bunch to consider. For me it’s just the love of anything Ford that I want to build a CJish motor. From a practical and hp desiring standpoint it may be better to go modern head. It depends on your outlook and goals.

[410bruce]

I'm kind of the same in that I really dig an engine that runs hard with as many factory parts as possible.

That 428 that BarryR built with all factory iron (including CJ exhaust manifolds) making 450 HP is cool as heck. 

[blykins]

With CJ heads that have been converted to modern 11/32" stem 2.09/1.65 valves, CJ intake, on 433 cubes, with a high 220's .050" duration on the camshaft, you will see about 425-430 hp here, with about 460 lb-ft of torque. 

If you want more than that, you'd have to go with more camshaft, or more compression, or have the heads ported. 

I understand the appeal of making horsepower with factory parts, hence my 352 project, but it takes a lot more effort and money to do it that way.

[410bruce]

Thanks Brent. I figured on getting a more aggressive cam from you if I were to go the all-iron route.

[cjshaker]

I understand the appeal of making horsepower with factory parts, hence my 352 project, but it takes a lot more effort and money to do it that way.

That all depends on how you look and approach something. Everybody wants to focus on a hp number, and I get that, but I think it's very misleading for people to make that a goal. It's fine for people wanting to run a number on the track, but kind of pointless for a street car.

To me, it comes down to 2 questions. What is it that you want for your car, and is money an issue?

If it's a money issue, go with what is your cheapest route, then live with it. I can pretty much assure you that you won't miss that 'extra' 20hp on the street. I'm also pretty sure that, with iron heads, you'll enjoy the car just as much as if it had a killer set of modern aluminum heads.

If money isn't the issue, then a modern aluminum head is the better choice, for lots of reasons.

If it's a nostalgia thing, and you like being "old school", then go the iron route and have fun. Forget what the numbers say. That's only for bragging rights anyway.

My stock stroke, non-ported, iron headed 427 is about as much fun as a person should be allowed to have. I've had a blast driving it thousands of miles during Drag Week and racing it at the Reunion, not to mention just general street miles. If I ask myself "would I have more fun if it made 20 more horsepower?" The answer would be absolutely not, the car is a blast to drive just the way it is. Would it go a tenth or two faster in the 1/4? Probably so. Would I notice it? No. I purposely wanted the engine to be all iron, and as 'factory' as possible, outside of the cam. At the track, it runs mid 11's @ 117. It's enough fun to put a smile on anybodies face. 20+ more horsepower isn't going to change that, and on the street, that extra horsepower is pretty much useless.

[Joe-JDC]

In a '67 Cougar, a FE was available, so that would be a much better engine for resale, show, and parts replacement.  However, I disagree with using the stock CJ heads and intake, because they are so heavy on the front end.  You will need new springs, shocks, sway bar, radiator, and probably cooling fan, shroud.  The TFS heads, and a C6-H, C6-F, C7-F, or RPM, and a gasket matched would remove upwards of 100-110# off the front end, and bring new parts to the build for power and longevity.  The heads and intake can be painted to look stock if that is what you want.  I remove the Edelbrock Logo on many RPM manifolds for folks, and when painted, they are difficult to tell from a stock Ford intake.  It is a win, win.  Joe-JDC

[frnkeore]

I agree with Joe, 100% on this.

Personally, I would never use a iron manifold on a FE. You loose to much weight using aluminum to consider it, about 55 lb. The RPM Perfomer, is one of the best and cheapest manifold you can get for mid level HP!

Your build is similar to mine, I want to use the original '58 heads but, just my (390 HP) manifold and aluminum WP save me 75 lb and if I went with aluminum heads, I think I would do the Edelbrocks @ about $1500 a pair, for a mid level street engine. Mine will be a 419, daily driver, in a '54 Ford, 226 cam. I don't care about the HP it has, just that it isn't to heavy and has good manors. Your very limited with street tires, anyway.

[Rory428]

I guess it all depends on what you want. My .030" over 428 and 427/454 FE both made well over 500 HP with bore stock 428 CJ iron heads, right down to the original 3/8" stem 2.09"-1.66" valves and no porting, with a flat tappet cam and a single 780 Holley vac secondary on a Ford Sidewinder intake. The cam would be kinda snotty for a street car and mild gearing, and if an automatic, a loose convertor would be needed. I am sure a set of aftermarket heads or some porting and better induction would have made quite a bit more power, and put my Fairmont into the 9 second ET range deeper and easier, but I wanted to do it with all that factory "crap". Something satisfying about people looking under the hood, and seeing nothing but factory Ford stuff, block,heads,intake, distributor, valve covers, etc, when they have twice as much $$$ tied up in aftermarket stuff and running slower.

[410bruce]

Excellent input and advice, guys.

Rory, that's where I'm at too. I LOVE factory iron that runs hard and surprises people when they see what you have.
However, I do agree in this instance with the Cougar, that taking as much weight off the front end as possible would probably be the best course of action--even it there were no power advantage.

The Edelbrocks. They seem to have fallen out of favor--why is that? Is it just because there are better heads available now?
I remember when they came out and was like "Wow! Affordable aluminum heads for an FE!  Sweet!" 

[67xr7cat]

At some point you need to make a decision, make a plan and stick to it.  I tend to fall in the same trap as you something comes along looks like a good deal and everything takes a turn and the pile of parts grows.  A few comments and I am just trying to help so please don't take it the wrong way:

Block - I saw your 428 block when you had it up on CL. Now not saying it is not a 428 casting, but it sure looked like an 390 casting that someone overbored to 428 and put a sleeve in.  From memory (since you took it down) it looked like early 70's DIF casting, the deck is the 390 style and no scratch mark on the rear (which some later ones did not have).  I assume you had it sonic checked, if not you need to as it may not be a good block. Not looking to argue, just what I see and have seen a lot of "428 service blocks"  that were 390 casting and scary thin.

CJ heads - Even in the condition they are in someone will pay something for them. Sell them off. Any low riser casting with the CJ valve size can do the same powerwise, just a matter of the exhaust bolt pattern. With headers can use the vertical pattern and cut the shock towers back, otherwise find a set of C6AE-R heads. I would not recommend starting with a head that has been damaged like your CJ. Is better start with good castings. That all said to get them all done up is not hard to have $1,000 or more in them and frankly it is a bad investment.

If you decide to stick with an FE, if your 428 block passes a sonic test I'd build that, save up my money and do the TFS head and be done with it.

If the 428 block is not good, find a good std bore 390 block and build that. Better to keep the over bore to a minimum and have a thicker cylinder wall. Even a 390 with TFS heads can make 500 hp and be streetable.  You can also use the 428 crank which get you around 416ci.

Finally, keep in mind a FE will add to the value of the car. My advice be need to make a plan, use good parts, stay away from parts that need a lot of work or are questionable and stay the course. Hope this helps, Steve

[67xr7cat]

Excellent input and advice, guys.

Rory, that's where I'm at too. I LOVE factory iron that runs hard and surprises people when they see what you have.
However, I do agree in this instance with the Cougar, that taking as much weight off the front end as possible would probably be the best course of action--even it there were no power advantage.

The Edelbrocks. They seem to have fallen out of favor--why is that? Is it just because there are better heads available now?
I remember when they came out and was like "Wow! Affordable aluminum heads for an FE!  Sweet!" 

The eddys are dated. When they came out they were not much more than a copy of the CJ head. They also were for a long time the only aftermarket head available at a decent price, good availability, and decent quality.  It is a good head and ported can make some power, but stock are not much more than your CJ heads.

Guys here including me are going to the TFS heads because of the bang for the buck. As for beating everyone up with old factory parts are alot of guys were happy to get rid of all that old stuff too.  If you want to prove a point or have a class restriction then use the old factory stuff, but in the end you will leave something on the table and more likely to have headaches with 50 year old castings that fail on you. 

[frnkeore]

Since your budget seems to be limited, my point on the Edelbrock heads, is that you get more HP than CJ's and another weight reduction. Weight = HP, no matter where you save it but, especially in the front and in the future, you could always send them to Blair and get that extra, TF level HP. If I didn't want to use these '58 heads, that would have been my choice.

I will be a happy disposal site for all those homeless, used Edelbrocks. I'd even pay the shipping