Author Topic: 445 Stroker Build Help  (Read 20042 times)

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scott foxwell

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Re: 445 Stroker Build Help
« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2017, 09:02:05 PM »
You should be able to make 500hp in your sleep with this combination. That's a whopping 1.1 hp/ci.

blykins

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Re: 445 Stroker Build Help
« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2017, 09:03:24 PM »
I've done some 500 hp 445 Edelbrock combos with hydraulic rollers.   They barely squeak by 500 and have a ton of torque, but they get there. 

Brent Lykins
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Rory428

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Re: 445 Stroker Build Help
« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2017, 09:38:17 PM »
Between the stroker crank and use of nitrous, I would also be concerned about the 390 block staying together. Back in 1988-89, I had a stock stroke 390 in my Fairmont, with a C6 (no transbrake then). It had iron CJ heads, a solid flat tappet cam, and ran 11.4s @ 118 MPH at 3200 lbs. After a while, I added a NOS "Cheater" adjustable nitrous kit, starting at 125 HP jets.Picked the car up pretty good, 10.6s at 128 MPH, but like many with power adders, since it was so easy, I installed the 175 HP jets. That picked up the performance to a best of 10.28 ay 132 MPH, but by August of 1989 the D4 "105" block had had enough, and tore all the main webbing out between the cam and crankshaft bores. 3 of the main caps split thru the center, and the crankshaft broke into 5 chunks, but all the LeMans rods, although badly bent, were still bolted to the crank journals. Nothing quite like sliding around at 130 MPH, with you own oil and coolant under the slicks! That was the end of the "blue bottle" for me!!
1978 Fairmont,FE 427 with 428 crank, 4 speed Jerico best of 9.972@132.54MPH 1.29 60 foot
1985 Mustang HB 331 SB Ford, 4 speed Jerico, best of 10.29@128 MPH 1.40 60 foot.
1974 F350 race car hauler 390 NP435 4 speed
1959 Ford Meteor 2 dr sedan. 428 Cobra Jet, 4 speed Toploader. 12.54@ 108 MPH

cammerfe

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Re: 445 Stroker Build Help
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2017, 10:59:32 PM »
Has anyone ever done a good test to prove or debunk the "rule of thumb" that aluminum heads can handle more compression?  I just don't see it, once the chamber is heated, wouldn't it be controlled by transfer to the coolant? How much cooler is the aluminum chamber and how does that transfer to pre-ignition tolerance?  I know this is one of those "universal" truths that gets thrown around, but many of these have been debunked over time.  Not saying it's not true if people have experience with a good apples to apples comparison, but my suspicion is this tolerance for higher compression is a trend towards aluminum heads being somewhat more modern with a better chamber, and generally being on high performance rebuilds with larger cams and attention to quench that makes them less prone to detonate. 

Not what I'd call "definitive" as it's not in a vehicle, but one article that looks at the subject

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/ccrp-0602-iron-versus-aluminum-cylinder-heads-test/

Not definitive, but a check on thermal conductivity tables seems to show aluminum (Depending on alloy) as having a TC rating of around 250 and iron (again depending on exact composition) of having about 80.

It stands to reason, to me, that such a difference in ability to conduct heat away from the maelstrom going on in a combustion chamber might well make it more forgiving of other factors.  :)

KS

Barry_R

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Re: 445 Stroker Build Help
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2017, 05:56:44 AM »
I look at this stuff as a risk versus reward question.

Its a 4500 (?) pound car with freeway gears.  Personally I would also vote for a compression ratio under the 10:1 value.  Even with all the DCR numbers and camshaft you will at some point in the power band (torque peak), have a high compression engine and will create some serious cylinder pressure.  You will never notice the 25 horsepower you will lose running n/a down the road.  But you will certainly notice the need for spiking the fuel if anything is less than 100% perfect on your tune up.  If you had a 2800 pound Mustang with a 4 speed and 3.91 gears the answer would be different.

I have probably pushed more nitrous through an FE than most folks, and I also had a sizable collection of split blocks and cylinders to show for the effort.  If you keep the nitrous at a modest level it will be OK.  It will also more than make up for the 25HP compression reduction.  And - if you are anything like I was - you may as well start planning for the next build because once you experience the power of the first hit of spray you re going to turn up the wick.

blykins

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Re: 445 Stroker Build Help
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2017, 06:55:46 AM »
My previous post about the 13:1 compression was tongue-in-cheek of course.  I spent a great amount of time with the OP last week, tossing 9-10 emails back and forth explaining various camshaft terms, specs, lobe designs, compression ratio tactics, etc.   I suppose he didn't really like what I had to say since he is here asking for advice.  I'm happy to see Barry echoing some of the points that I had made in the emails. 

I don't think it would be best to ride the fence of either "SCR" or "DCR" with such a heavy car and a high gear.   The gain in horsepower is going to be negligible but can be a big deal if the tune isn't right.  Craving for every last pony in situations like these is really futile.   I too second the motion for a low compression ratio, somewhere around the 10-10.25 mark would be sufficient based on past experiences.  It wouldn't hurt my feelings if it ended up under 10; again, a 1/4 point isn't going to make the difference between a tow truck engine or a race car engine, and we are only looking at around 2cc difference in part volumes to swing that direction.

A hydraulic roller camshaft is going to be the best route.  With a hydraulic roller in the FE, you have to keep your eyes on a few different things at the same time:  a heavy valvetrain, like what you would have with a 3/8" stem out-of-the-box Edelbrock head, is going to want a less aggressive cam lobe.   A less aggressive lobe is going to have a longer advertised duration, which will help in the compression ratio arena.  Basically a win/win in this situation, especially when we're rolling the cam ahead to help with extra plenum volume.

If the OP is looking for individual part numbers for specs, he will find very quickly that a lot of this stuff is custom, and it takes some "figurin" to determine the numbers.  Lobe numbers will only be able to be determined by guys who work with custom camshafts on a regular basis.  Otherwise, you'll get a lot of the "I'd use the XR282HR"....Not a lot of guys are used to working with individual camshaft specs.

The nitrous oxide is another area that needs addressed heavily I think.  I think a lot of guys think that “it’s only 500 hp” but the internet is so full of bench racing that not a lot of guys know what a true 500 hp engine feels like.  It will move a heavy car along very nicely.  I think the nitrous deal is a good way to split that block in half. 

All fun stuff....
« Last Edit: December 29, 2017, 07:07:28 AM by blykins »
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
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www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
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Thumperbird

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Re: 445 Stroker Build Help
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2017, 08:15:27 AM »
Brent:
Certainly was not implying I did not like what you had to say and I hope others continue to chime in with their thoughts on this for a while longer here, please don't shy away.
As stated in original post, given lots of variation in recommendations, I was opening it up to a wider audience, and too that end, I am getting a little more comfortable with settling in on a design as planned.
As an automation equipment guy, when I don't have full understanding, especially in the case of very dynamic systems, I collect data so I can make the most informed decision possible.  Since physical prototyping and testing is prohibative I have to rely on published artiles and others experience to educate me.

For you guys that are builders and suppliers, of course you don't want me coming back at you with a problem so I suspect you remain a bit on the conservative side, of course you would.  Do I want to specify a turd, of course not, but some of the car build sport/fun lies in the edginess of the whole thing. (for a thunderbird)  At the end of the day, if there is secret sauce, yes I would kind of like to know what it is so I can be more independant down the road.

As for the nitrous aspect, I get the message, I will dial it back and if it is used it would be couple second shots at most anyways.  I fully understand there will be tuning all around, suspension issues, you name it, I just want to get off to a good start with a solid foundation and not leave too much on the table even though I want to get in it and go on a nice summer day.
Thanks for your time Brent and thanks all for your input.




blykins

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Re: 445 Stroker Build Help
« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2017, 08:24:53 AM »
Brent:
Certainly was not implying I did not like what you had to say and I hope others continue to chime in with their thoughts on this for a while longer here, please don't shy away.
As stated in original post, given lots of variation in recommendations, I was opening it up to a wider audience, and too that end, I am getting a little more comfortable with settling in on a design as planned.
As an automation equipment guy, when I don't have full understanding, especially in the case of very dynamic systems, I collect data so I can make the most informed decision possible.  Since physical prototyping and testing is prohibative I have to rely on published artiles and others experience to educate me.

For you guys that are builders and suppliers, of course you don't want me coming back at you with a problem so I suspect you remain a bit on the conservative side, of course you would.  Do I want to specify a turd, of course not, but some of the car build sport/fun lies in the edginess of the whole thing. (for a thunderbird)  At the end of the day, if there is secret sauce, yes I would kind of like to know what it is so I can be more independant down the road.

As for the nitrous aspect, I get the message, I will dial it back and if it is used it would be couple second shots at most anyways.  I fully understand there will be tuning all around, suspension issues, you name it, I just want to get off to a good start with a solid foundation and not leave too much on the table even though I want to get in it and go on a nice summer day.
Thanks for your time Brent and thanks all for your input.

We tend to keep the secret sauce stuff to ourselves.  :-)
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
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My427stang

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Re: 445 Stroker Build Help
« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2017, 08:35:35 AM »
This is a neat discussion.  I'd say this first, 500 shouldn't be hard to hit IMHO.   I am not sure why Jay's old magazine builds fought that number, but as Scott said, that's 1.12 hp per cid.  Not unreasonable, even in a tight spaced wedge like an FE, but with the cylinder head as picked, as posted, it makes it harder

That's why I think what continues to be missing here is real cylinder head discussion.  Edels are decent for a cost effective build, but on the street I like to consider 2.0 X intake flow as the max a tight bore spacing wedge like an FE will pull.  That's if everything is well matched. With a 260 cfm head, it's tough to be in the low 500s unless it's matched perfectlyl.  That's a probably conservative number as some people can show 2.2 or so per intake cfm, but that's really more in the canted valve range or dyno only IMHO. 

I still think less focus should be on a specific degree or two of a lobe, same with compression, and get that thing breathing.   Just as an example a small runner, like the TFS, or Blair's small runner pro-port, would add a significant amount of cylinder fill, both normal atmospheric and during overlap.  A better set of heads will do more than a 1/4 point of compression or a 3-4 degree change in a lobe.  Get a 300 cfm small fast port and match parts and the 500 is far easier IMHO.

Needless to say, the quality of your offset carb spacers will also affect that.  Not too worried about adding plenum on a 445 inch motor with early cam timing and a properly sized port, but, if those spacers add some sort of goofy turbulence or force the mixture to make corners it doesn't want to, it won't be as happy

That being said, I agree with Brent and Barry 100%.  Stay at or under 10-ish SCR, don't push the limits of DCR (which just means cam appropriately), and the RPM range and power level is perfect for a custom hydraulic roller, especially if you can get a better flowing head on there. 

I'd also remind that Barry made some good power with an off the shelf cam he didn't expect to use, not that I recommend that here, but I'd push hard to convince you and everyone else that "the right heads make real power" and the other stuff supports the airflow.  WAY oversimplified of course, but the fast guys do head work, car show guys do big cams.

As far as the gear ratio discussion, going back, 2.75 X 3.50 = 9.625, I have no idea what you were doing with your "uptick" I assume it was to account for converter slippage, but don't do that.  At low torque cruise a converter will not be slipping.  The stall speed is for a given torque and resistance, and a higher stall converter won't be slipping at cruise because you have neither high torque required or high resistance.  I don't mind the 2.75 gear, puts it in the right place, but still make sure you have a quality converter company look at what you have for dyno results and make sure it matches.  Too tight or too loose are a bitch on the street :)

One last comment on the nitrous, "a 2 second shot at most" is more worrisome than saying you will stand on it IMHO.  Build the engine to the desired use.  If you want nitrous at that level, spark retard and dedicated fuel supply is a minimum in my opinion, and having it set up as a 2 stage would be preferred as it would come on easier than just jamming it all in there.  That being said, it's all about risk vs reward, if you want to take the risk, do it man, just do everything.  Build it the best you can to hold 700 hp, if the block splits, it splits.  I personally would want an aftermarket block for that, but it may last for a long time.  Just don't think that you'll manage the engine;s internal safety while holding the button, a lot will be going on when 700 hp starts eating up pavement
« Last Edit: December 29, 2017, 08:40:48 AM by My427stang »
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jayb

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Re: 445 Stroker Build Help
« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2017, 09:43:36 AM »
This is a neat discussion.  I'd say this first, 500 shouldn't be hard to hit IMHO.   I am not sure why Jay's old magazine builds fought that number, but as Scott said, that's 1.12 hp per cid.  Not unreasonable, even in a tight spaced wedge like an FE, but with the cylinder head as picked, as posted, it makes it harder.


The reason for the HP number on that engine was pretty simple, really:

1.  Flat tappet, budget cam.  That whole engine came in at $6K.

2.  Honest dyno numbers  ;)

A hydraulic roller makes a big difference, as Brent mentioned.  But a basic street/strip porting job makes a big difference too, and will allow that HP peak without going to the expense of a roller cam setup.  Of course, there are other advantages to going with a roller cam...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Barry_R

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Re: 445 Stroker Build Help
« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2017, 10:16:44 AM »
2.  Honest dyno numbers  ;)


That quote alone is a big statement in the internet world

Drew Pojedinec

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Re: 445 Stroker Build Help
« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2017, 10:27:51 AM »
Now I'm no engine builder.... just a dude that owns a few fe vehicles. 
From my perspective in a heavy car driven on the street, I feel trading a little horsepower for a little compression is a great investment in enjoyable cruising.

If you run 93 and the engine is 9.5:1 it's an easy tune to stay safe, the engine itself is much more tolerant of random street conditions.
If you run 93 and the engine is 11:1, sure you *can* do it.... but what about when you are stuck waiting for a train to cross the street while the engine has 215 degree water temps, and your electric fan just blew a fuse?

If you are looking at "Max Performance, nitrous saturated engine, blah blah blah"  well that is cool, but do that.
I've seen a lot of people chasing all of the above in a build and they end up with nothing really working out well.

Jay,
Your 390 stroker budget engine has inspired more people than you know.  It showed that the ole dinosaur could hit respectable numbers with nothing overly expensive or trick.  The real variable with that build is finding decent deals on certain factory parts like rockers.  Either way, still a great build, and still relevant.

scott foxwell

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Re: 445 Stroker Build Help
« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2017, 10:44:12 AM »
2.  Honest dyno numbers  ;)


That quote alone is a big statement in the internet world
Everyone's dyno is honest. Just ask them.

scott foxwell

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Re: 445 Stroker Build Help
« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2017, 10:49:11 AM »
One thing I'm learning about the FE. The block is definitely the Achilles heel. I think with the right combination, even some iron head combinations can make over 600hp. Much more than that, all the discussions about cams, heads, compression, induction, N20, etc. are moot. Pointless to even go there and expect any reliability. We definitely need another source for a good after market block and one that doesn't feel the need to gouge the market on price.

Thumperbird

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Re: 445 Stroker Build Help
« Reply #29 on: December 29, 2017, 02:07:11 PM »
Thanks everyone, this is a great discussion, exactly what I was hoping for, at least for me in that it enables trade off decisions based on a nice variety of inputs.

I will back the nitrous off.  I believe the MSD 6AL has an input I can toggle to retard timing should I give it a shot.
If I blow it up then I will try again I suppose with that "affordable" aftermarket block Scott and all are looking for.
Street strip dress the heads, Jay has provided a local shop recommendation for that work.
Already committed to Hyd. roller, Harland Sharp bar/rockers, Morel lifters.
May not be quite so concerned about CR, 10.25 might be good, but thinking I want to stay above 8 DCR
I will post a CAD model of the spacer some time here just for fun, it is nothing fancy at all.
Yes, how it impacts flow concerns me but am hoping a combination of 1" 4 hole spacer, followed by nitrous plate, followed by offset spacer will give me a nice "mix" of physics to yield a uniform flow.

My favorite quote so far "but the fast guys do head work, car show guys do big cams"
I do want it to idle and behave a little racy but want to back it up with some real responsive go as well, thinking of this as a hybrid, in between the car show bling and the track in terms of performance.

Thanks again, keep it coming and if there are more out there willing to give 2 cents worth I would appreciate it!
Back to building my paint booth so I can spray some epoxy primer tomorrow, of course it has to be the coldest day of the year so far.