Author Topic: Prototype Adjustable timing chain set (Read 38827 times)

jayb · « **on:** March 15, 2015, 10:28:16 PM »

The pictures below are the top gear of a new adjustable timing chain set, being developed by Survival Motorsports. At the PRI show Barry and I hounded Cloyes about doing something like this for the FE (Cloyes makes these already for other engines), in light of the availability of my two piece timing cover. But Cloyes has been kind of moving slow, so Barry has been taking matters into his own hands. Just to give them the basic idea and a prototype product, he has taken two of the top gears from one of the Cloyes premium sets, and machined them to make a single, adjustable top gear. This is really going to be a cool product:

There is a +/- 10 degree range of adjustment on this gear, and it will come with the premium roller chain, making it a top end setup. I'm not privy to all the arrangements Barry has with Cloyes, but my guess is that if they don't make this available soon, Barry will probably manufacture them himself.

I can't wait to try one of these out on the next engine...

ToddK · « **Reply #1 on:** March 16, 2015, 04:51:16 AM »

Thanks to guys like you Jay, and Barry, things just keep getting better in the FE world. Well done.

My427stang · « **Reply #2 on:** March 16, 2015, 05:45:43 AM »

I like it!

cjshaker · « **Reply #3 on:** March 16, 2015, 09:43:10 AM »

Now this is what I was waiting on for the timing cover! It's the perfect combo. Simple, yet effective, and no need to mess with taking a gear or the chain off. I wonder if Cloyes has had any issues of movement with big cams and stiff springs? They probably won't bother making them until AFTER Barry does, if he does.

plovett · « **Reply #4 on:** March 16, 2015, 10:21:36 AM »

That looks really cool. I hope to hear more about it when it's ready for market. Looking forward to your test results on the prototype as well, Jay.

paulie

KMcCullah · « **Reply #5 on:** March 16, 2015, 12:59:38 PM »

I like it! From the looks of the machined finishes I'd say those sprockets are pretty hard. Since this is a new deal, how about adding an eccentric stud for gnats-ass adjusting? Turn the hole next to the timing dot into an up and down slot. Add a hole to the hub. Make a drop in eccentric stud with a 3/16 broach for a 3/16 allen wrench. Or start with 3/4 hex steel maybe... Pull the stud out after adjusting. Or make it integral maybe...

1968galaxie · « **Reply #6 on:** March 16, 2015, 04:46:32 PM »

Very cool!

Now we need a removable timing cover to go with the adjustable gear.

Cheers

ScotiaFE · « **Reply #7 on:** March 17, 2015, 04:34:24 AM »

Quote from: 1968galaxie on March 16, 2015, 04:46:32 PM

Very cool!

Now we need a removable timing cover to go with the adjustable gear.

Cheers

Your joking, right.

Barry_R · « **Reply #8 on:** March 17, 2015, 05:48:56 AM »

Quote from: KMcCullah on March 16, 2015, 12:59:38 PM

I like it! From the looks of the machined finishes I'd say those sprockets are pretty hard. Since this is a new deal, how about adding an eccentric stud for gnats-ass adjusting? Turn the hole next to the timing dot into an up and down slot. Add a hole to the hub. Make a drop in eccentric stud with a 3/16 broach for a 3/16 allen wrench. Or start with 3/4 hex steel maybe... Pull the stud out after adjusting. Or make it integral maybe...

The sprockets are hard as all - you know...

Right now I am waiting on some studs to do a proper assembly. We don't really have the "legal" amount of thread engagement on the rear hub but is enough to work. In production I think we can thin the front sprocket some to gain an extra thread or two for a better piece. We just barely have clearance in the back for the thrust plate mounting bolts, and just barely enough in front for a fuel pump eccentric and arm to clear. But they DO clear.... Details....

Tried moving the cam with an eccentric on a Chevy hex-a-djust. Not real smooth or easy on an assembled engine, although it works without the valvetrain installed. On the other hand you just loosen the six fasteners a touch on an assembled engine and use the damper bolt to rock the engine - the cam stays in position and it happens almost embarrassingly easy.

Gotta be careful about piston to valve clearance when making big changes in cam advance. It changes a LOT. A real LOT. I know this because....

Lenz · « **Reply #9 on:** March 17, 2015, 08:07:39 AM »

Quote from: ScotiaFE on March 17, 2015, 04:34:24 AM

Quote from: 1968galaxie on March 16, 2015, 04:46:32 PM
Very cool!

Now we need a removable timing cover to go with the adjustable gear.

Cheers
Your joking, right.

When worked out, this cam gear and Jay's covers will sell each other. I see a kit with both right down to seals and gaskets, everything you'd need to complete the process. Well done

. Cloyes can sit this one out, yes?

Drew Pojedinec · « **Reply #10 on:** March 17, 2015, 08:24:35 AM »

Not trying to be a doubter....
but do you think that 6 bolts in a large groove like that will hold timing over a few years and thousands of miles?

I'd be somewhat paranoid of the gear sliding a little bit over time.

Otherwise, awesome idea. I love the idea of having a certain cam timing to drive to the track with and sliding the timing for a few runs at the track

shady · « **Reply #11 on:** March 17, 2015, 08:44:33 AM »

I'd imagine the most stress on it is when the starter is engaged. don't see a problem with it slipping, especially with a roller cam. I like it the way it is, easy to adj. no buttons, keys, eccentrics. KISS.

Barry_R · « **Reply #12 on:** March 17, 2015, 09:37:04 AM »

I had the same concerns a few years ago. The exact same setup works on most every belt drive I've worked on - - you see them on Comp and Pro Stock cars. I don't think there would be a problem on street use.

Joe-JDC · « **Reply #13 on:** March 17, 2015, 09:45:11 AM »

I know it is work, but what would be the possibility of drilling a set screw hole for each of the timing marks around the perimeter of the gear. If the holes were spaced around the perimeter, the balance would not be affected, and no two holes would line up with a degree mark. Just an added safety by the set screw going through both halves and locking the gear halves in position. Joe-JDC

cjshaker · « **Reply #14 on:** March 17, 2015, 11:58:34 AM »

Quote from: Barry_R on March 17, 2015, 05:48:56 AM

Gotta be careful about piston to valve clearance when making big changes in cam advance. It changes a LOT. A real LOT. I know this because....

Checking the clearance from one extreme to the other during mock-up would be a wise choice and eliminate any questions of how far is too far.

I wouldn't guess balance would be an issue unless extreme weight was added. Since it's half engine speed, so close to center and having the bearing immediately behind it, not to mention the harmonics that the springs/lobes cause, I'm guessing that it would be a non-issue.

KMcCullah · « **Reply #15 on:** March 17, 2015, 12:03:17 PM »

Quote from: Barry_R on March 17, 2015, 05:48:56 AM

Quote from: KMcCullah on March 16, 2015, 12:59:38 PM
I like it! From the looks of the machined finishes I'd say those sprockets are pretty hard. Since this is a new deal, how about adding an eccentric stud for gnats-ass adjusting? Turn the hole next to the timing dot into an up and down slot. Add a hole to the hub. Make a drop in eccentric stud with a 3/16 broach for a 3/16 allen wrench. Or start with 3/4 hex steel maybe... Pull the stud out after adjusting. Or make it integral maybe...

Tried moving the cam with an eccentric on a Chevy hex-a-djust. Not real smooth or easy on an assembled engine, although it works without the valvetrain installed. On the other hand you just loosen the six fasteners a touch on an assembled engine and use the damper bolt to rock the engine - the cam stays in position and it happens almost embarrassingly easy.

I see what your saying now. Kinda like the tail wagging the dog. The cam is a bugger to move with everything assembled. Much easier to leave it alone and move the crank.

BB-63 · « **Reply #16 on:** March 17, 2015, 02:31:59 PM »

Is Cloyes 9-3108A-10 not applicable here? Sorry if that is a dumb question. - Garrett

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/clo-9-3108a-10/overview/make/ford

jayb · « **Reply #17 on:** March 17, 2015, 05:48:06 PM »

The problem with the hex-adjust set, as I understand it, is that they don't stay in position very well. Plus they only offer a +/- 6 degrees of adjustability. I agree with Barry that with the six screws around the outside of the top gear, they should hold indefinitely. Put Loctite on them and no worries...

Barry_R · « **Reply #18 on:** March 17, 2015, 07:06:08 PM »

Quote from: Joe-JDC on March 17, 2015, 09:45:11 AM

I know it is work, but what would be the possibility of drilling a set screw hole for each of the timing marks around the perimeter of the gear. If the holes were spaced around the perimeter, the balance would not be affected, and no two holes would line up with a degree mark. Just an added safety by the set screw going through both halves and locking the gear halves in position. Joe-JDC

Interesting idea. Might have to give that one a shot....

cjshaker · « **Reply #19 on:** March 17, 2015, 11:19:01 PM »

Quote from: jayb on March 17, 2015, 05:48:06 PM

The problem with the hex-adjust set, as I understand it, is that they don't stay in position very well. Plus they only offer a +/- 6 degrees of adjustability. I agree with Barry that with the six screws around the outside of the top gear, they should hold indefinitely. Put Loctite on them and no worries...

The problem with using Loctite is that when/if they are loosened, the Loctite can break up and form little shards of glass that love to chew up bearings if they aren't removed completely. I've tried the blue and red on worn original interference fit rocker adjusters, and when I had to adjust them again the Loctite splintered into little rock hard shards. I never trusted the stuff again on anything inside an engine that wasn't going to stay put until a complete tear-down.

rockittsled · « **Reply #20 on:** March 18, 2015, 12:06:20 AM »

Drill the nuts for safety wire and wire three nuts together and wire the other three together using method three, not method eight. I would not trust method eight (single wire) on a part that rotates at 3 or 4 thousand RPM

jayb · « **Reply #21 on:** March 18, 2015, 02:20:35 AM »

Quote from: cjshaker on March 17, 2015, 11:19:01 PM

The problem with using Loctite is that when/if they are loosened, the Loctite can break up and form little shards of glass that love to chew up bearings if they aren't removed completely. I've tried the blue and red on worn original interference fit rocker adjusters, and when I had to adjust them again the Loctite splintered into little rock hard shards. I never trusted the stuff again on anything inside an engine that wasn't going to stay put until a complete tear-down.

Boy, I don't know about that, Doug. I've been using blue and red loctite inside engines forever, especially on SOHCs, and have never seen a problem. I know the little shards that you are talking about, but it seems to me that they just aren't hard enough to do any damage. Have you ever seen any evidence that they cause a problem?

cjshaker · « **Reply #22 on:** March 18, 2015, 09:09:01 AM »

Quote from: jayb on March 18, 2015, 02:20:35 AM

Quote from: cjshaker on March 17, 2015, 11:19:01 PM

The problem with using Loctite is that when/if they are loosened, the Loctite can break up and form little shards of glass that love to chew up bearings if they aren't removed completely. I've tried the blue and red on worn original interference fit rocker adjusters, and when I had to adjust them again the Loctite splintered into little rock hard shards. I never trusted the stuff again on anything inside an engine that wasn't going to stay put until a complete tear-down.

Boy, I don't know about that, Doug. I've been using blue and red loctite inside engines forever, especially on SOHCs, and have never seen a problem. I know the little shards that you are talking about, but it seems to me that they just aren't hard enough to do any damage. Have you ever seen any evidence that they cause a problem?

When it happened to me on the adjusters, I removed the rocker systems and thoroughly cleaned them, so I didn't have any problems. But feeling them in my hands, they were very hard, just as Loctite is designed to get. So, while I'm assuming, I can't help but think they would cause serious bearing damage if they went through the bypass on a filter. Did you use the Loctite in areas that were loosened and then retightened, Jay? I've used it inside engines also, but only on something that will stay together while the engine is assembled. I doubt there's any problem using it that way. Or, maybe it dissolves in the oil and I'm just wrong, but I never felt like testing that theory.

bartlett · « **Reply #23 on:** March 18, 2015, 09:38:52 AM »

I had thought about this alot when I was building racing atv engines. My idea was to build two sections one slotted and the other with a pin that went into the slot. Then I would make offset slugs that would fill the entire slot. The slugs would have a overlap on top so the slugs could be retained with a small screw. So a guy would need a selection of slugs for each adjustment.

this would make for a positive lock.

jayb · « **Reply #24 on:** March 18, 2015, 12:14:24 PM »

Quote from: cjshaker on March 18, 2015, 09:09:01 AM

When it happened to me on the adjusters, I removed the rocker systems and thoroughly cleaned them, so I didn't have any problems. But feeling them in my hands, they were very hard, just as Loctite is designed to get. So, while I'm assuming, I can't help but think they would cause serious bearing damage if they went through the bypass on a filter. Did you use the Loctite in areas that were loosened and then retightened, Jay? I've used it inside engines also, but only on something that will stay together while the engine is assembled. I doubt there's any problem using it that way. Or, maybe it dissolves in the oil and I'm just wrong, but I never felt like testing that theory.

Why test the theory if you don't have to LOL! I use Blue Loctite on the 4 bolts that hold the timing gear onto the SOHC cams. Every time you change cam timing, or change cams, you have to loosen or remove those bolts. Probably loosening them a 1/2 turn wouldn't cause an issue; I like the Loctite because the bolts stay tight even after you've loosened and retightened them a few times. I'm sure I've dropped some of that stuff in the motor before when I've had to remove the gears completely from the cam, but of course I try to prevent that. But again, I've never seen a problem (knock on wood).

plovett · « **Reply #25 on:** March 18, 2015, 01:30:13 PM »

Quote from: jayb on March 18, 2015, 12:14:24 PM

Quote from: cjshaker on March 18, 2015, 09:09:01 AM

Why test the theory if you don't have to LOL! I use Blue Loctite on the 4 bolts that hold the timing gear onto the SOHC cams. Every time you change cam timing, or change cams, you have to loosen or remove those bolts. Probably loosening them a 1/2 turn wouldn't cause an issue; I like the Loctite because the bolts stay tight even after you've loosened and retightened them a few times. I'm sure I've dropped some of that stuff in the motor before when I've had to remove the gears completely from the cam, but of course I try to prevent that. But again, I've never seen a problem (knock on wood).

Loctite is right up there with JB-Weld, zip-ties, and duck tape. My whole life has been so much better because of these things.

JMO,

paulie

cjshaker · « **Reply #26 on:** March 18, 2015, 04:24:54 PM »

Quote from: plovett on March 18, 2015, 01:30:13 PM

Loctite is right up there with JB-Weld, zip-ties, and duck tape. My whole life has been so much better because of these things.

JMO,

paulie

4 things you have to have on your list if you're going to conquer the world.

Qikbbstang · « **Reply #27 on:** March 25, 2015, 12:04:56 PM »

Jay with your with a CNC equipped shop, wondering if machining two gears to produce one adjustable one is actually the most efficient/economical? ..... Not sure how machining one cast cast gear down compares to machining a billet piece, but a billet drive side piece could perhaps be aluminum or some other easier to machine metal.
For decades I've seen a shop produce adjustable timing belt pulleys for 4cyls:

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=2.3++adjustable+cam+gear&_from=R40&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.X++adjustable+cam+gear.TRS0&_nkw=++adjustable+cam+gear&ghostText=&_sacat=0

The fact that retarding timing (the direction that load naturally forces timing to go) makes for better top end. Anytime there is adjustable timing including the option to make it automatic seems natural. Don't forget one of the EMC contestants did so last challenge.

TorinoBP88 · « **Reply #28 on:** April 02, 2015, 12:59:05 AM »

Nice!

Barry_R · « **Reply #29 on:** April 02, 2015, 05:48:50 AM »

One of the two adjustable sets we've prototyped is on its way to Jay - he does not know that yet but will any second now

The other one will be on its way to Cloyes today once I transcribe the drawing from "bar napkin" to a clean sheet of paper with greasy fingerprints and spilled Diet Coke...

blykins · « **Reply #30 on:** April 02, 2015, 06:13:24 AM »

If you need a formal drawing Barry, let me know....I have AutoCAD here and I'm not scared to use it....

jayb · « **Reply #31 on:** April 02, 2015, 09:53:28 AM »

Quote from: Barry_R on April 02, 2015, 05:48:50 AM

One of the two adjustable sets we've prototyped is on its way to Jay - he does not know that yet but will any second now

Yep, just got the UPS notice. Nice surprise, Barry, I'll give you a call when I receive it.

Nightmist66 · « **Reply #32 on:** July 25, 2015, 12:05:57 AM »

Any update on this project?

Barry_R · « **Reply #33 on:** July 25, 2015, 06:59:33 AM »

Cloyes has opted out for the time being. They have agreed to supply basic components. Means that I will need to do it myself. I have way too many things happening at the moment, and am really trying to regroup, so its going to be a little while, but I will get them made.

Nightmist66 · « **Reply #34 on:** July 25, 2015, 10:06:25 AM »

I figured that's how it would go. They probably think it is not a strong enough market.

Barry_R · « **Reply #35 on:** July 25, 2015, 10:16:59 AM »

They said they needed to focus resources on OEM replacement items this year.

fekbmax · « **Reply #36 on:** July 25, 2015, 10:23:46 AM »

This is a great idea. . I hope you can make it happen and be avalable.

Tommy-T · « **Reply #37 on:** July 25, 2015, 01:00:41 PM »

I'm just curious.

I can't say I've ever made the effort to take the front off a good running motor and move cam timing to find power.

So, lets say you have a hot street FE, a 454 incher with a " shelf" cam that runs mid to low 11's, in a 3500 car. You've degreed it in on the centerline method.

Is there really ET to be found? Dyno data maybe? Especially around a 308R or a 306S shelf grind?

fastback 427 · « **Reply #38 on:** July 25, 2015, 02:14:16 PM »

Try page twelve on the technical section here. Jay did dyno testing on a thread called Effect of cam timing changes on torque and horsepower. Lots of cool data.

Tommy-T · « **Reply #39 on:** July 25, 2015, 04:11:32 PM »

Interesting data.

By Jays charts, you may want to adjust your cam timing from the cam manufacturers recommendation... if you have too much power and need to lose some!

Guess I crawl back into my hole now.

jayb · « **Reply #40 on:** July 25, 2015, 08:10:58 PM »

I think the real value of adjusting the cam timing is when you get a custom cam, maybe with lobes you pick yourself, and you don't get a timing recommendation from the cam company. Then, having the ability to quickly adjust and test the cam timing, on the dyno or at the track, can be very valuable. You can do that with an SOHC, of course, and with my 577" SOHC last year on the dyno, I found that the my 114 LSA cams made the most power at 103 on the right side and 106 on the left. Would've never guessed that one...

fekbmax · « **Reply #41 on:** April 05, 2016, 01:32:38 PM »

Any new updates or progress on this baby ?

jayb · « **Reply #42 on:** April 05, 2016, 03:51:54 PM »

Barry and I have been trying to get this done together, but Barry has been so busy lately that we haven't been able to work together to get it done. As a result, I have gone on alone and revamped the design somewhat, and ordered the adjustable gears myself. I hope Barry isn't too pissed at me about that

Anyway, within 3-4 weeks I would expect to have a set of prototype gears to try out on a test engine. Assuming that goes well, the first 50 sets of gears will be coming shortly thereafter. I'll post some pictures of the prototype set when I get it.

The real issue for me right now is the timing chain. For years and years I've used the Iwis/Jwis German-made chain, because it was generally considered to be very high quality and was a good, true roller chain. However, recently these chains seem to be being delivered with a split roller, rather than a one piece tubular roller. I will post some pictures of this later. I don't really like the split roller that much, but if you order the good chain from Cloyes (Cloyes part number 9-133), that is what is currently being delivered. I need to call Cloyes about this and see if the Iwis chain with the real tubular rollers is still available. Maybe Iwis quit making them that way?

fekbmax · « **Reply #43 on:** April 05, 2016, 07:19:32 PM »

We will be watching and waiting, lol. Thanks for the update.

Qikbbstang · « **Reply #44 on:** April 07, 2016, 08:20:39 PM »

Any chance you guys might consider a few springs & things to make that automatically variable?

I think back on the days-of-old with Vari-Cam and Cam-A-Go and how it took the ignition timing along for a ride when it changed the cam timing (not exactly a good idea), and shudder (the perfect word) at the thought of an undampened spring trying to alter cam timing in the realm of a timing chain's harmonics and shock loads.

Regardless there was a team that showed up at Engine Masters Challenge with a vintage Cam-A-Go not long ago and did pretty well didn't it?. You think about the all the infinitely variable stuff that goes on in a Ford Coyote's valvetrain...................

By the way Barry you aren't related to anyone with a last name TASCA....putting together your own prototype and carrying a to the factory?

fekbmax · « **Reply #45 on:** November 11, 2016, 01:28:14 PM »

Any progress on the chain set ?

jayb · « **Reply #46 on:** November 12, 2016, 02:55:02 PM »

The production batch was supposed to ship from Australia last week, but they haven't yet. Hopefully this week...

FE Jonny · « **Reply #47 on:** November 27, 2016, 09:48:24 AM »

Hey Jay been a while since I signed in LOL. Was checking on the chain set.

jayb · « **Reply #48 on:** November 27, 2016, 04:00:54 PM »

Last I heard they will ship this week for sure, probably take 7-10 days for me to get them (since the gears are machined in Australia). So, I should have them available in a couple weeks. There have been multiple delays, as seems to be usual with a new product, but they should be here soon - Jay

Leny Mason · « **Reply #49 on:** December 04, 2016, 09:35:52 AM »

This is a great Idea my thought is it needs to be pinned after it's set, like Berry said check to make sure to piston doesn't hit if it moves what can happen, like it was said earlier a series of holes bur degree, I am not being negative put having a back fire could jerk it some I would think. Leny Mason

Barry_R · « **Reply #50 on:** December 04, 2016, 11:03:22 AM »

I have run a hand made prototype of this item on the past two Engine Masters Challenge entries. It has been absolutely problem free. No movement at all and proven with a couple hundred dyno pulls to nearly 7000 RPM.

machoneman · « **Reply #51 on:** December 04, 2016, 11:13:44 AM »

Barry, can you post a pic of the piece? Perhaps you did already but.....

jayb · « **Reply #52 on:** December 04, 2016, 11:56:55 AM »

My new timing gears FINALLY shipped from Australia on Friday. I should have them in about a week and a half; I will post when they are available. Here is a picture of one of the top gears:

I agree with Barry that the slotted arrangement shouldn't be a problem. There are six fine threaded bolts holding the two parts of the top gear together, and torquing them to a reasonable value should keep them locked securely together. You could pin them if you wanted, but that kind of takes away from the advantage of being able to time the engine while it is put together.

Drew Pojedinec · « **Reply #53 on:** December 04, 2016, 12:20:22 PM »

Super cool Jay and Barry.
Really really neat stuff. If I was building another engine, I wouldn't think twice about getting one (might anyway).

In regards to the loctite/bolt concerns, why not loctite studs in? Seems like it'd be the best setup for a semi permanent install.

machoneman · « **Reply #54 on:** December 04, 2016, 01:20:12 PM »

Quote from: jayb on December 04, 2016, 11:56:55 AM

My new timing gears FINALLY shipped from Australia on Friday. I should have them in about a week and a half; I will post when they are available. Here is a picture of one of the top gears:

I agree with Barry that the slotted arrangement shouldn't be a problem. There are six fine threaded bolts holding the two parts of the top gear together, and torquing them to a reasonable value should keep them locked securely together. You could pin them if you wanted, but that kind of takes away from the advantage of being able to time the engine while it is put together.

Thanks Jay and Barry! One very cool piece.

jayb · « **Reply #55 on:** December 04, 2016, 03:10:54 PM »

Quote from: Drew Pojedinec on December 04, 2016, 12:20:22 PM

Super cool Jay and Barry.
Really really neat stuff. If I was building another engine, I wouldn't think twice about getting one (might anyway).

In regards to the loctite/bolt concerns, why not loctite studs in? Seems like it'd be the best setup for a semi permanent install.

I was concerned about the mechanical fuel pump arm; the height of the nut and washer over the gear can interfere with that arm, leading to problems if you want to run a mechanical fuel pump. I ended up going with button head cap screws, which clear the arm with no trouble and of course would be installed with Loctite and torqued. Besides, they are cheaper than the studs, nuts, and washers, and the cost of these timing sets was starting to get too high. I figure that if someone wants to replace the capscrews with some studs and nuts, no reason they can't do that.

fekbmax · « **Reply #56 on:** December 04, 2016, 05:01:46 PM »

any idea what the total cost may be to obtain one of these pieces ?

jayb · « **Reply #57 on:** December 04, 2016, 07:39:05 PM »

I'm going to put the first 30 sets up at $229. After that they will go to $249. ebay prices will be higher when I eventually get them on there, because of the ebay and Paypal charges. Shipping will be via USPS Priority Mail, so about $14 for shipping.

427LX · « **Reply #58 on:** December 04, 2016, 08:55:32 PM »

Very nice setup! Remember the Vari Cam timing gear that was the hot setup back in the late 60's?
It had a spring tension setup that would retard the cam timing at high RPM I believe.

WConley · « **Reply #59 on:** December 04, 2016, 10:29:39 PM »

Jay - If you're using button head cap screws, see if you can source Torx versions at a reasonable cost.

I've rounded off more Allen head button cap screws than I'd care to admit! The Torx ones can really take it, especially in your application where people are going to reef on them.

- Bill

Heo · « **Reply #60 on:** December 04, 2016, 10:55:34 PM »

X2 what WConely said. If my mermory is right
Torx can take 30 percent more Torqe

jayb · « **Reply #61 on:** December 04, 2016, 11:05:47 PM »

Too late for Torx, the allen head screws are already purchased and installed in the gears. Also I don't know of a source for fine thread Torx button head capscrews.

Heo · « **Reply #62 on:** December 05, 2016, 12:57:57 AM »

http://www.fastenerdata.co.uk/unf-torx-socket-button-head-screw-grade-129-b183.html
If you need them in the future

GJCAT427 · « **Reply #63 on:** December 05, 2016, 06:27:28 AM »

Jay, Check with McMaster-Carr. Another sourse might be MSC in NY. Garry

Barry_R · « **Reply #64 on:** December 05, 2016, 07:44:06 AM »

I used short studs and nuts on mine. But I was not concerned about mechanical fuel pump use. Only one eccentric required on my engine - and its me!

jayb · « **Reply #65 on:** December 05, 2016, 09:58:03 AM »

Quote from: GJCAT427 on December 05, 2016, 06:27:28 AM

Jay, Check with McMaster-Carr. Another sourse might be MSC in NY. Garry

Thanks Garry, McMaster didn't have them but MSC does. I'll think about them for the next batch...

mike7570 · « **Reply #66 on:** December 05, 2016, 07:41:22 PM »

FE Jonny · « **Reply #67 on:** December 11, 2016, 07:29:31 PM »

Once I get mine set properly I doubt I'll need to adjust much after. With the funky configuration I will be running I want to be able to infinetly fine tune everything is what I am after. With E85, stage II Eddy heads, roller cam, Moets TF Box R intake and TFI who knows where I'll end up timing wise? And I swapped my chassis and added about 3000 LBS at least to my weight. I already have most everything now just need the chain and I want to do cross bolt center main caps while it's apart. I can almost smell the Alky now on the dyno LOL.

BattlestarGalactic · « **Reply #68 on:** December 15, 2016, 10:57:45 AM »

Jay, what is the release date for ordering? Have a buddy that has interest.

jayb · « **Reply #69 on:** December 15, 2016, 11:23:07 AM »

The gears are supposed to arrive at my place today, Larry, but since this is an overseas shipment they may be a couple days late. The chains are already here. I will post in this thread when they are available, but it shouldn't be more than a few more days. Thanks, Jay

BattlestarGalactic · « **Reply #70 on:** December 15, 2016, 01:01:52 PM »

Ok, I realized it was a long distance thing but didn't know exactly what you had going on. Thanks for the update, I'll pass it along.

jayb · « **Reply #71 on:** December 20, 2016, 07:37:06 PM »

Well, as usual everything that can go wrong, will go wrong. The gear shipment from Australia was split into two parts by the shipping company (TNT), and one box with some of the cam gears and all of the crank gears has been lost. They are currently searching for the missing box. I suppose it doesn't help that we are in the middle of the holiday season. If you are waiting for one of these sets please accept my apologies; I don't have any information yet on when I may receive the missing parts. Hopefully they will find the box and I will have the rest of the gears in the next few days. In the meantime, here is what I do have:

Sorry again for the delay - Jay

fekbmax · « **Reply #72 on:** December 20, 2016, 08:20:40 PM »

Man, that sucks, I sure hope the rest of it turns up for you. I can say this, what you do have looks like a really nice quality part. None of us should be surprised though judging from all your other awesome parts.

XR7 · « **Reply #73 on:** December 20, 2016, 08:39:02 PM »

Wow... that sucks, all the crank gears, so no sets. Wonder why they boxed them that way??? It is scary shipping anything this time of year for sure. I sure hope they find your missing box Jay.

jayb · « **Reply #74 on:** December 20, 2016, 09:08:38 PM »

Quote from: fekbmax on December 20, 2016, 08:20:40 PM

Man, that sucks, I sure hope the rest of it turns up for you. I can say this, what you do have looks like a really nice quality part. None of us should be surprised though judging from all your other awesome parts.

Thanks, I'm very happy with the top gears and chains. I'm sure the bottom gears will look good, too, if they ever show up

CaptCobrajet · « **Reply #75 on:** December 22, 2016, 09:50:06 PM »

I bought 50 sets from that guy 10 or 12 years ago. Hell of a coincidence....... the bottom gears never made it! I still have a bunch of top gears that I couldn't use. I have used all of the chains. I protested with my CC company. They had already remitted the funds to him, but they made it good with me. Ended up buying the top gears and chains from the CC company for the price of chains only, to help them survive their taking care of me. I hope your lower gears end up coming.........

jayb · « **Reply #76 on:** December 22, 2016, 10:37:32 PM »

Boy, that is quite a coincidence. My shipment had three boxes according to the shipping company, and I have only received two, so at least I know there is still one more box out there...

CaptCobrajet · « **Reply #77 on:** December 23, 2016, 03:52:45 AM »

Hopefully it will make it. I want to put one of those on my little port injected EFI project. The runners are so long that I am not sure my time-tested observations on where to put the cam with conventional manifolds will be right. We can dial her in on the dyno with your piece. Maybe that box just got separated. I sent a box to Australia once that got stuck for a week in Austria...... then it finally got headed right. I was sure it was history, but it ended up making it.

stubbie · « **Reply #78 on:** December 23, 2016, 11:02:42 PM »

We here on the island Australia are used to it. Austria, Australia same place to some people. Only 12000km apart.
Jay just curious as to why you had your gears made in Australia and not in the USA?

BigBlockFE · « **Reply #79 on:** December 23, 2016, 11:32:11 PM »

Quote from: stubbie on December 23, 2016, 11:02:42 PM

We here on the island Australia are used to it. Austria, Australia same place to some people. Only 12000km apart.
Jay just curious as to why you had your gears made in Australia and not in the USA?

CHEAP LABOR

jayb · « **Reply #80 on:** December 23, 2016, 11:50:34 PM »

Quote from: stubbie on December 23, 2016, 11:02:42 PM

We here on the island Australia are used to it. Austria, Australia same place to some people. Only 12000km apart.
Jay just curious as to why you had your gears made in Australia and not in the USA?

I tried to get them made in the US, via Cloyes, but they weren't interested in the small volumes we were proposing. Plus some of the other US timing gears didn't look all that good to me. The Australian company I'm working with was interested despite the small volumes, and I like the quality of their parts, so I went with them. The only real downside was the shipping cost from Australia, and, obviously, the shipping itself...

Barry_R · « **Reply #81 on:** December 23, 2016, 11:54:23 PM »

I once sent a camshaft and lifters to Australia via U.S. Postal.

Six months later a call came from a vendor of mine saying a box arrived at their place with my return address label on it & they did not know why. I have re-used a box from them for the shipment (nice sturdy package) that had the vendors address in lettering 1/8" tall on the back side from when it was printed. The correct delivery address and my return address were still intact on the big, white front label in lettering 3/4" tall, along with stickers and stamps from all around the freaking globe.

Of all the possible places for the box to end up - why not the delivery or the return address?

Barry_R · « **Reply #82 on:** December 23, 2016, 11:57:59 PM »

Quote from: jayb on December 23, 2016, 11:50:34 PM

I tried to get them made in the US, via Cloyes, but they weren't interested in the small volumes we were proposing.

Cloyes pretty much told us to pound sand. Took a physical sample and drawings, promised to get it on the development schedule, and then said "no can do for this year" a couple months later. Cost Jay about a season worth of sales.

stubbie · « **Reply #83 on:** December 24, 2016, 09:46:25 AM »

Only in my industry BigBlockFE.
Well were not making cars here anymore so I guess they need something to do. Good to see were still manufacturing something besides gas.
Freight's not cheap either way. I used to use FedEx but gave up over cost. Over a 14 month period price increases jumped up by almost $500 for the same size carton. Soon found someone cheaper. Anyway good luck with the gears. Hope they work out for you. And Merry Christmas to all.

Heo · « **Reply #84 on:** December 24, 2016, 03:41:15 PM »

Quote from: stubbie on December 23, 2016, 11:02:42 PM

We here on the island Australia are used to it. Austria, Australia same place to some people. Only 12000km apart.
Jay just curious as to why you had your gears made in Australia and not in the USA?

The same with Sweden Switzerland...Ahhh from Sweden where you make the
cuckoo clocks...ehhh noooo

Drew Pojedinec · « **Reply #85 on:** December 24, 2016, 05:04:50 PM »

Quote from: Heo on December 24, 2016, 03:41:15 PM

Quote from: stubbie on December 23, 2016, 11:02:42 PM
We here on the island Australia are used to it. Austria, Australia same place to some people. Only 12000km apart.
Jay just curious as to why you had your gears made in Australia and not in the USA?
The same with Sweden Switzerland...Ahhh from Sweden where you make the
cuckoo clocks...ehhh noooo

Pffft, how could they mistake Sweden and Switzerland?

No go back to eating that fancy chocolate you guys make, while wearing your wooden shoes, that you wittled with your SwedeArmy knife, that yall are so famous for.

ToddK · « **Reply #86 on:** December 25, 2016, 08:37:45 AM »

Quote from: BigBlockFE on December 23, 2016, 11:32:11 PM

Quote from: stubbie on December 23, 2016, 11:02:42 PM
We here on the island Australia are used to it. Austria, Australia same place to some people. Only 12000km apart.
Jay just curious as to why you had your gears made in Australia and not in the USA?

CHEAP LABOR

Ha, ha, that's a good joke. There's a number of reasons that we don't have a car manufacturing industry in our country any more, but cheap labour isn't one of them.

jayb · « **Reply #87 on:** January 07, 2017, 10:44:55 PM »

Well, after three weeks of chasing around the freight company, the rest of the gears finally made it. It appears that the original box that they were in was destroyed. Inside the original box were two smaller boxes. One of them, containing all the crank gears, arrived intact, but the other box was a re-pack job. Probably dropped off a forklift and broke open or something. Thank goodness they were steel gears; they all appear to be in fine shape. Anyone interested in one of these sets can see the link on the main FE Power page:

http://www.fepower.net/Products/adjtset.html

The $229 price (or $236 via Paypal) is good for the first 30 sets, then the price will have to go to $249. Thanks again to everyone here for all the interest in this project!

Joey120373 · « **Reply #88 on:** January 08, 2017, 05:30:31 PM »

Just placed an order, thanks Jay.

Drew Pojedinec · « **Reply #89 on:** January 08, 2017, 05:44:38 PM »

I'm not going to buy one, but I just want to state how awesome you are for making stuff like this Jay.

jayb · « **Reply #90 on:** January 08, 2017, 08:58:09 PM »

Quote from: Joey120373 on January 08, 2017, 05:30:31 PM

Just placed an order, thanks Jay.

Thank-you Joey, it will be on the way in the morning.

turbohunter · « **Reply #91 on:** January 12, 2017, 11:54:37 PM »

Received mine today Jay.
To bad it has to be covered up.
Beautiful piece.

jayb · « **Reply #92 on:** January 13, 2017, 09:39:20 AM »

Glad you like it Marc!

Joey120373 · « **Reply #93 on:** January 13, 2017, 03:51:18 PM »

Too bad it will be covered up.......indeed.

Got me thinking, always a bad thing, I wonder if a clear cover could be made for Jays 2 piece timing cover?
Might get it laser cut from a suitable plastic? Pair that with the see through valve covers.

jayb · « **Reply #94 on:** January 13, 2017, 08:39:07 PM »

It certainly could be, but the water pump would still hide most of timing gear setup.

jayb · « **Reply #95 on:** January 17, 2017, 01:19:16 PM »

Heads up for those of you who have purchased a timing chain set. I just got an email from one of my customers that showed a defective chain. I have never seen something like this before:

This is a Cloyes chain, and I have to believe the one with the missing link is an aberration, but please check your chains carefully anyway.

Also, as of Monday morning 1/23/17 the introductory price will be history, and pricing will increase to the normal price of $249 per set.

Thanks, Jay

Joey120373 · « **Reply #96 on:** January 17, 2017, 02:56:34 PM »

Got mine a few days ago, thanks Jay, I'll be sure to check for missing links

KMcCullah · « **Reply #97 on:** January 17, 2017, 03:09:39 PM »

Interesting, especially since it's a Cloyes chain. 2 rollers and a plate were omitted. Must have been quittin' time on a Friday.......

mike7570 · « **Reply #98 on:** January 18, 2017, 12:37:28 PM »

Jay, got your message this morning. I will check it when it arrives.
Thanks for the heads up.
Mike

mike7570 · « **Reply #99 on:** January 19, 2017, 04:25:55 PM »

Chain and cover arrived today, everything looks good. No problems with chain.
Thanks, Mike

jayb · « **Reply #100 on:** January 19, 2017, 09:59:26 PM »

Mike, thanks for the update, I suspect that the bad chain was a once in a great while kind of thing, but I will be checking ALL of them before shipment from now on LOL!

turbohunter · « **Reply #101 on:** January 21, 2017, 02:30:43 PM »

Chain's good Jay.
Looking like an aberration that was found.
Still a beautiful piece.

GJCAT427 · « **Reply #102 on:** January 22, 2017, 08:35:31 AM »

Jay the timing set arrived Friday in the mail. Very nice . thanks Garry

FE Jonny · « **Reply #103 on:** February 13, 2017, 02:34:18 AM »

Mine is fine, links could be a little tighter but no misfires on link sequence.

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Author Topic: Prototype Adjustable timing chain set (Read 38827 times)

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