Author Topic: Stainless Steel Headers  (Read 8672 times)

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sixty9cobra

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Stainless Steel Headers
« on: August 22, 2018, 06:47:39 AM »
Does anyone make custom headers for a 69 mustang out of stainless? I would like at least a 2" header. Right now I have Hooker 6114 that are Swain Tech coated. I think I am leaving power on the table with 1 3/4 headers. Ground clearance is a consideration. My 464 is making about 625 flywheel hp.

BattlestarGalactic

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Re: Stainless Steel Headers
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2018, 08:19:22 AM »
Kooks Headers make them for lots of vehicles.  I did a quick search and they don't list for '69 Mustang.   They likely can make them.
https://www.kooksheaders.com/
Larry

482supersnake

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Re: Stainless Steel Headers
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2018, 06:22:43 PM »
If you want some off the best........ http://www.elstonheaders.com/
He has done FE powered Mustangs so he probably has a jig already but they won't be inexpensive.

427HISS

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Re: Stainless Steel Headers
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2018, 07:17:37 PM »
If you want sidepipes,....we make them. 304 highly polished.  ;)

ron b

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Re: Stainless Steel Headers
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2018, 09:32:32 PM »
Does anyone make custom headers for a 69 mustang out of stainless? I would like at least a 2" header. Right now I have Hooker 6114 that are Swain Tech coated. I think I am leaving power on the table with 1 3/4 headers. Ground clearance is a consideration. My 464 is making about 625 flywheel hp.
I believe ben line makes them

Chrisss31

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Re: Stainless Steel Headers
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2018, 07:48:39 AM »
I checked out the website for Elston Headers, there is a lot of interesting information about header sizing and design on there.  What are you guys running for primary tube diameters?  This guy repeatedly talks about favoring smaller diameter tubing assuming there aren't too many tight bends or direction changes.  I always assumed 427-482" whatever combo at 600+hp would be looking for 2" tubes but maybe that's not the case?  He also seems to like the 4-2-1 design over merge collectors too.

sixty9cobra

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Re: Stainless Steel Headers
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2018, 10:34:36 AM »
Kooks emailed me it would be 2800-3200 for 304SS and I would have to leave the car for 2-3 weeks in NC.  They have no stock of bolt in headers for my car.

machoneman

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Re: Stainless Steel Headers
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2018, 11:22:08 AM »
Kooks almost exclusively does SBC and BBC GM stuff. W/o looking today, they were in the $1,100-$1,300 range for BBC headers in a late 60's Camaro. Scary price they gave you but as a one-off design, I understand the high price. 

Kooks emailed me it would be 2800-3200 for 304SS and I would have to leave the car for 2-3 weeks in NC.  They have no stock of bolt in headers for my car.
Bob Maag

BattlestarGalactic

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Re: Stainless Steel Headers
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2018, 02:09:20 PM »
There was a set of Kooks SS foxbody headers up at summit on the junk rack.   Like $300?  I was going to just buy them to flip for some profit.   I left them sit.
If you were local, and my buddy had some time this winter he could make you a very nice set for much less.  He builds a lot of headers for guys around here.   His hourly rate isn't bad, the hard part would be buying all the stainless tube.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2018, 02:12:12 PM by BattlestarGalactic »
Larry

TomP

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Re: Stainless Steel Headers
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2018, 05:47:59 PM »
Stainless bends are expensive and the ones that aren't are 16 ga which is way too thick and heavy. Easy to weld but makes a 50 lb pair of headers. Burns has thinner bends but $$$. Could cost over a grand just for the materials before starting on making them.
 I think the Nascar ones are 22 ga.

FElony

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Re: Stainless Steel Headers
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2018, 06:18:36 PM »
Does anyone make custom headers for a 69 mustang out of stainless? I would like at least a 2" header. Right now I have Hooker 6114 that are Swain Tech coated. I think I am leaving power on the table with 1 3/4 headers. Ground clearance is a consideration. My 464 is making about 625 flywheel hp.

From a stop, can you spin your rear tires with a full throttle launch?

482supersnake

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Re: Stainless Steel Headers
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2018, 06:59:56 PM »
I think the only off the shelf stainless headers for FE powered Mustangs would be these from JBA

https://www.cjponyparts.com/jba-long-tube-headers-1-3-4-inch-stainless-steel-390-428-1967-1970/p/HDJL5/

This is also an option but still not cheap.

http://www.stainlessheaders.com/customheaders
« Last Edit: August 24, 2018, 07:08:12 PM by 482supersnake »

sixty9cobra

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Re: Stainless Steel Headers
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2018, 08:36:31 PM »
Does anyone make custom headers for a 69 mustang out of stainless? I would like at least a 2" header. Right now I have Hooker 6114 that are Swain Tech coated. I think I am leaving power on the table with 1 3/4 headers. Ground clearance is a consideration. My 464 is making about 625 flywheel hp.

From a stop, can you spin your rear tires with a full throttle launch?



Sometimes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2hCd3FOcrU


FElony

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Re: Stainless Steel Headers
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2018, 09:04:14 PM »
Does anyone make custom headers for a 69 mustang out of stainless? I would like at least a 2" header. Right now I have Hooker 6114 that are Swain Tech coated. I think I am leaving power on the table with 1 3/4 headers. Ground clearance is a consideration. My 464 is making about 625 flywheel hp.

From a stop, can you spin your rear tires with a full throttle launch?



Sometimes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2hCd3FOcrU

Well, I was going to say if so, then your traction is leaving power on the table, and the small amount you would pick up with bigger headers would only add to the problem. However, at 11.87, I don't think you are making anywhere near 625 horsepower. Was this number off a dyno with no front dress? What kind of headers on the dyno?

Engine Masters had an episode where they bashed the primary tubes on a dyno motor, and the decrease in diameter had little effect on power. I'm a little surprised that none of our builders here have piped up with an A<-->B comparison, 6114's against 6375's (BTW, I can't believe how much the cost of those has gone up. We are getting hosed here big time).

If you are looking to lower ET, See if you can put that puppy on a chassis dyno, because that's a better tell than an engine dyno.

sixty9cobra

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Re: Stainless Steel Headers
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2018, 09:09:27 PM »
Does anyone make custom headers for a 69 mustang out of stainless? I would like at least a 2" header. Right now I have Hooker 6114 that are Swain Tech coated. I think I am leaving power on the table with 1 3/4 headers. Ground clearance is a consideration. My 464 is making about 625 flywheel hp.

From a stop, can you spin your rear tires with a full throttle launch?



Sometimes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2hCd3FOcrU

Well, I was going to say if so, then your traction is leaving power on the table, and the small amount you would pick up with bigger headers would only add to the problem. However, at 11.87, I don't think you are making anywhere near 625 horsepower. Was this number off a dyno with no front dress? What kind of headers on the dyno?

Engine Masters had an episode where they bashed the primary tubes on a dyno motor, and the decrease in diameter had little effect on power. I'm a little surprised that none of our builders here have piped up with an A<-->B comparison, 6114's against 6375's (BTW, I can't believe how much the cost of those has gone up. We are getting hosed here big time).

If you are looking to lower ET, See if you can put that puppy on a chassis dyno, because that's a better tell than an engine dyno.




That was the previous engine with 450 rwhp. This one has 625 FLYWHEEL hp. The idea for SS headers was not more power but less rust. Even though they are coated I think they are ugly.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2018, 09:11:32 PM by sixty9cobra »

FElony

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Re: Stainless Steel Headers
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2018, 09:26:16 PM »
Does anyone make custom headers for a 69 mustang out of stainless? I would like at least a 2" header. Right now I have Hooker 6114 that are Swain Tech coated. I think I am leaving power on the table with 1 3/4 headers. Ground clearance is a consideration. My 464 is making about 625 flywheel hp.

From a stop, can you spin your rear tires with a full throttle launch?



Sometimes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2hCd3FOcrU

Well, I was going to say if so, then your traction is leaving power on the table, and the small amount you would pick up with bigger headers would only add to the problem. However, at 11.87, I don't think you are making anywhere near 625 horsepower. Was this number off a dyno with no front dress? What kind of headers on the dyno?

Engine Masters had an episode where they bashed the primary tubes on a dyno motor, and the decrease in diameter had little effect on power. I'm a little surprised that none of our builders here have piped up with an A<-->B comparison, 6114's against 6375's (BTW, I can't believe how much the cost of those has gone up. We are getting hosed here big time).

If you are looking to lower ET, See if you can put that puppy on a chassis dyno, because that's a better tell than an engine dyno.




That was the previous engine with 450 rwhp. This one has 625 FLYWHEEL hp. The idea for SS headers was not more power but less rust. Even though they are coated I think they are ugly.

Well, jeez, you might have mentioned the old engine, which has nothing to do with the one we are talking about.  ::) I return to my original question about tire slippage with the NEW one. You SAID you were concerned about leaving power on the table,  not anything about having pretty pipes. Since you are not making sense to me, I'm going to back out of this thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1bXPNy1Yn4

sixty9cobra

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Re: Stainless Steel Headers
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2018, 09:37:05 PM »
lol 2" pipes might make more power also. The dyno headers were 2" .
« Last Edit: August 25, 2018, 09:39:20 PM by sixty9cobra »

KMcCullah

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Re: Stainless Steel Headers
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2018, 11:53:24 AM »
With that many cubes of investment, why not have a three step header specd' out by the group here. And then built at a Ford friendly hotrod garage? They would finish out the badass package that you assembled. JMHO.
Kevin McCullah


sixty9cobra

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Re: Stainless Steel Headers
« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2018, 05:04:54 AM »
Is the Tri Y better for power than 4 equal length tubes?. That maight make more room in a Mustang engine bay.

BattlestarGalactic

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Re: Stainless Steel Headers
« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2018, 08:41:27 AM »
Dang Harry.   My wagon motor makes 625 hp at 6500 rpm.

Will bigger headers make better power?   Ya, likely.  Though if you look at my 2" headers, they are mashed 1/2 flat on the bottom(thus the need for wheelie bars), and it made no ill effect to the way the car runs.  Unless you set your chassis up to use all that power, then the fact you might loose some from not using 2" pipes will be a moot point.

My favorite saying:  "Warren Johnson may see a difference..."   Meaning, on a Pro stock dyno, you may see an increase in power if you split hairs really, really small, but beyond that will you see an actual ET improvement after the increase(and the money outlay).

Two short stories: 
Friend built a set of headers for a '65 Fairlaine.  Billy Glidden built the motor for the car and wanted the headers to dyno the motor.  Billy gave my friend grief over a few tubes and their lengths and the loss of power(blah, blah, blah).   Well, in this car there is only so much room for headers.  Will the car really see that 5 hp difference in ET?  Likely not. But Billy looks at things like that and wants the most out of any motor combination.

Another friend with 454 Windsor motor in a '75 F100.   Spent the money to have 2" headers built with 3" pipes out the back.  Was suppose to be all that for the 600 hp he makes.  Truck did not pick up ANYTHING in ET over the generic 1 7/8" headers.  Lots of money spent, for no gain.

Just throwing this out there for food for thought from my experiences.  I get the want for Stainless so you don't have rust issues.  Size wise?  Don't sweat that as much.

My .02
Larry

sixty9cobra

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Re: Stainless Steel Headers
« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2018, 09:26:45 AM »
I was just looking for the best bang for the buck. I have Swain Tech coated headers and any thing that gets on then stains them. I had Jet hot and that after a few yrs crackled and rusted.  I realize a few dents and dings and even smashing them with a sledge like Hot rod did doesn't mean squat. But if I was going to spend 2-3k on custom headers why not get the best you can? I did not know stainless tri ys were available. So something good became of this post. I might have upset Felony though.

BattlestarGalactic

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Re: Stainless Steel Headers
« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2018, 10:11:41 AM »
I might have upset Felony though.

And your point being??    :o

I do realize if you are spending the money, go big or go home.  But if you can find over the counter stainless 1 7/8 or something for considerably cheaper then it is something to ponder.

I had my Crites headers coated locally.  Ya, they are stained horribly except where I grind the crap off when I bang them on the ground LOL!! 
Larry

FElony

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Re: Stainless Steel Headers
« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2018, 12:34:29 PM »
I might have upset Felony though.

And your point being?? Oh wait, that's been said already.

Seriously, I was really looking to help out. Your first post made it sound like you were wanting to go quicker. I waited for you to qualify the traction situation while I dug through Motor Trend's website to fish out the EM header diameter and coating test, which was on an engine in your power level.

You threw me a curve with the vid of an engine that has nothing to do with the performance at hand. Then your "Swain Coated" headers suddenly became rusted spaghetti instead of a cork in the flow. You want ground clearance from a big tube race header. On a budget. I had to throw in the towel. You beat my analytical side.

Missing information: Is this now a strip-only car? Roll bar/cage? Full exhaust system? Size? Do you NEED the extra bit of power to hit an index or something? If not, consider just removing the 6114's, have them blasted, and look at some of the DIY spray coatings currently available. A switch from an OEM fan to an electric will yield as much or more than a header change. EM has that video, too, in the same location.

cjshaker

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Re: Stainless Steel Headers
« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2018, 02:25:25 PM »
I get the whole 'want it to look good' thing. It's your car, your baby, so if you want the best stainless headers (while looking for the best bang for the buck), don't let anybody talk you out of it. I hate the look of rusted headers, but that's just me. It doesn't bother me a bit to see them on another persons car, or a drag car, it's just something that would grate on me, on my own car, every time I opened the hood. I know it's nit-picky and a money drain, but hey, it's my car. You have a really nice car, I don't blame you for wanting it to look as good as you can get it.
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

BattlestarGalactic

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Re: Stainless Steel Headers
« Reply #24 on: August 27, 2018, 03:25:31 PM »
I totally agree on good looking headers.  I hate the rusty, oil coated headers on the wagon, but not many people see them.  The pickup has a fresh set of coated Hookers on it so we'll see how long it takes to mess them up.  If these old motors didn't leak like a siv, then maybe they would stay nicer, longer.
Larry

sixty9cobra

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Re: Stainless Steel Headers
« Reply #25 on: August 27, 2018, 03:42:45 PM »
I might have upset Felony though.

And your point being?? Oh wait, that's been said already.

Seriously, I was really looking to help out. Your first post made it sound like you were wanting to go quicker. I waited for you to qualify the traction situation while I dug through Motor Trend's website to fish out the EM header diameter and coating test, which was on an engine in your power level.

You threw me a curve with the vid of an engine that has nothing to do with the performance at hand. Then your "Swain Coated" headers suddenly became rusted spaghetti instead of a cork in the flow. You want ground clearance from a big tube race header. On a budget. I had to throw in the towel. You beat my analytical side.

Missing information: Is this now a strip-only car? Roll bar/cage? Full exhaust system? Size? Do you NEED the extra bit of power to hit an index or something? If not, consider just removing the 6114's, have them blasted, and look at some of the DIY spray coatings currently available. A switch from an OEM fan to an electric will yield as much or more than a header change. EM has that video, too, in the same location.



Felony
   My apologies I thought you were being a wiseguy asking me if I can spin my tires by punching it. That is why I posted the video. That motor spit a rod bearing at the 2017 FE Reunion. This motor was finished in February this year. I had a heart attack in March and triple bypass in April. So that is the last video I have of the car.

This is a street car 3500lbs with out my butt in it. No roll bar, full 3" Magnaflow exhaust, full interior, stereo etc. I have had this car for 45 years and paid 400 dollars for it. I have been taking it up a level when I can.  I have dual electric fans most of the goodies for saving power.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2018, 03:55:00 PM by sixty9cobra »

gt350hr

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Re: Stainless Steel Headers
« Reply #26 on: August 27, 2018, 04:05:12 PM »
 With traction , I assure you that you will need a roll bar with that kind of power if you do go tot the track. Nice work beautiful car. "If" you are only concerned with street performance 1-7/8ths tubes are still OK. Just this old guys opinion.

sixty9cobra

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Re: Stainless Steel Headers
« Reply #27 on: August 27, 2018, 04:10:21 PM »
I missed something where did 1 7/8s headers come from?
« Last Edit: August 27, 2018, 04:12:01 PM by sixty9cobra »

66FAIRLANE

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Re: Stainless Steel Headers
« Reply #28 on: August 27, 2018, 05:37:13 PM »
Interesting experiences with the coatings. Mine are Jet Hot coated & I am just about to have them re-done after 20 years. They looked pristine for well over 10 of those years and there is still no cracking or rust. I hear stories that 'this coating is better than that one' & 'that coating is no good'. I suppose like a lot of things it depends on how well the process was done by the operator. But I could not be happier with the finish & longevity of my Jet Hot coating. I certainly never want to make them again.

FElony

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Re: Stainless Steel Headers
« Reply #29 on: August 27, 2018, 07:01:47 PM »
I might have upset Felony though.

And your point being?? Oh wait, that's been said already.

Seriously, I was really looking to help out. Your first post made it sound like you were wanting to go quicker. I waited for you to qualify the traction situation while I dug through Motor Trend's website to fish out the EM header diameter and coating test, which was on an engine in your power level.

You threw me a curve with the vid of an engine that has nothing to do with the performance at hand. Then your "Swain Coated" headers suddenly became rusted spaghetti instead of a cork in the flow. You want ground clearance from a big tube race header. On a budget. I had to throw in the towel. You beat my analytical side.

Missing information: Is this now a strip-only car? Roll bar/cage? Full exhaust system? Size? Do you NEED the extra bit of power to hit an index or something? If not, consider just removing the 6114's, have them blasted, and look at some of the DIY spray coatings currently available. A switch from an OEM fan to an electric will yield as much or more than a header change. EM has that video, too, in the same location.

Felony
   My apologies I thought you were being a wiseguy


Oh my goodness gracious! I can't fathom how anyone in this forum could possibly think that little old me could or would be a wiseguy about anything at all.  ::)  I am crestfallen. Dejected. And I suddenly lack gastrointestinal fortitude.   :-[

Understandable, really. The downside of being FElonious is that nobody takes anything I say seriously. And, many/most/butnotall of my own questions never get answered. A little better lately. Must be pity.

I agree headers should look good. Personally, not fan of stainless/shiny. But, as said, it's your car.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=diy+header+coating

https://www.holley.com/products/exhaust/headers_and_exhaust_manifolds/all_headers/parts/6114-3HKR

482supersnake

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Re: Stainless Steel Headers
« Reply #30 on: August 27, 2018, 07:39:42 PM »
I think most of these got the JBA tri-y's
http://www.mustangandfords.com/featured-vehicles/173-0409-1967-ford-mustang-gt500e-snake-review/
Most likely leaving some power on the table but I doubt you would notice driving on the street.

gt350hr

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Re: Stainless Steel Headers
« Reply #31 on: August 28, 2018, 09:35:22 AM »
I missed something where did 1 7/8s headers come from?

      "Many" FE Mustang headers use 1-7/8ths tubing. No intent to offend.

sixty9cobra

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Re: Stainless Steel Headers
« Reply #32 on: August 28, 2018, 11:11:23 AM »
not offended just trying to understand. 1 7/8 must be O.D. and 1 3/4 must be I.D.

BattlestarGalactic

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Re: Stainless Steel Headers
« Reply #33 on: August 28, 2018, 11:35:03 AM »
Sorry, that was me that said 1 7/8".   Just meant use whatever they offer on the shelf and I would guess that would be it?  Maybe they only have 1 3/4"?  As long as it is stainless, I would not fret using them over paying top dollar for custom built 2".  Unless you are really dead set on them.  It is totally up to you(your wallet).
Larry

Chrisss31

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Re: Stainless Steel Headers
« Reply #34 on: August 28, 2018, 12:36:11 PM »
Tubing is always measured on the outside, so the ID depends on the wall thickness of the material.

gt350hr

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Re: Stainless Steel Headers
« Reply #35 on: August 28, 2018, 04:31:12 PM »
 Years back when running NHRA C and D stock , we ran better with 1-7/8ths tubes. 2 or 2-1/8th were for S/S cars.

plovett

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Re: Stainless Steel Headers
« Reply #36 on: August 28, 2018, 05:06:34 PM »
The Hooker 6114's are 1-3/4" though.

FElony

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Re: Stainless Steel Headers
« Reply #37 on: August 28, 2018, 07:58:47 PM »
Years back when running NHRA C and D stock , we ran better with 1-7/8ths tubes. 2 or 2-1/8th were for S/S cars.

D is/was intermediate, yes? What car? Pics?

gt350hr

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Re: Stainless Steel Headers
« Reply #38 on: August 29, 2018, 10:12:37 AM »
  Yup.

FElony

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Re: Stainless Steel Headers
« Reply #39 on: August 29, 2018, 10:22:26 AM »

TimeWarpF100

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Re: Stainless Steel Headers
« Reply #40 on: August 29, 2018, 11:48:08 AM »
Does anyone make custom headers for a 69 mustang out of stainless? I would like at least a 2" header. Right now I have Hooker 6114 that are Swain Tech coated. I think I am leaving power on the table with 1 3/4 headers. Ground clearance is a consideration. My 464 is making about 625 flywheel hp.

On my 482 I built my own step headers 1 7/8 to 2"  Why not build your own? Stainless is very very pricey. Just to build 304 Stainless exhaust in 3" from headers back was around 1100.00 just in parts.  I do not think my 482 will make anywhere near 625 flywheel. Will soon find out what it puts down to the tire. Was hoping for minimum of 460 RWHP. 10.5 comp, CNC'd heads, Tunnel Wedge, Solid Roller Cam (bit small) Was hoping for a 11 sec 1/4 but it may not be.

TomP

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Re: Stainless Steel Headers
« Reply #41 on: August 29, 2018, 12:41:00 PM »
I have had this car for 45 years and paid 400 dollars for it.

How'd you like to make a quick hundred bucks? I'll give you $500 and you won't need to replace the headers.  ;D

I would go with 2" over the 1 7/8" and wall thickness matters too. A 16 ga tube is a smaller ID than the normal 18ga most headers are. The Tri-Y design seems to be gaining in popularity amongst race cars. It's important that the tubes be joined in the proper firing sequence... #6 and 8, not 7 and 8 even though the steering complicates that.
The headers I made for my 61 wagon were 1 7/8" off the head for about 14" into 2 1/4" tubes for about another 20" and then  3" collector. Having only two tubes 2 1/4" diameter pass by the starter is easier than trying to get four smaller tubes past.

jayb

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Re: Stainless Steel Headers
« Reply #42 on: August 30, 2018, 08:06:29 AM »
It's important that the tubes be joined in the proper firing sequence... #6 and 8, not 7 and 8 even though the steering complicates that.


I beg to differ, Tom.  The header tests detailed in my book show that the FPA headers (where 7 and 8 are joined) performed identically to the JBA headers (where 6 and 8 are joined).  The theory on joining 6 and 8 is good, but some engines will not care...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC