FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: Tom Gahman on April 29, 2023, 07:34:46 PM
-
What manual trans missions are there that can handle drag strip duty in a 4000 lb.
Galaxie with slicks and 500 hp? My top loader is fine at the moment, but it may be the next weak link.
I don't need one at this moment but with summer shows and swap meets coming up, I'd like to have an idea of what to buy or stay away from, like something that appears in good shape but parts are no longer available for.
Thanks,Tom.
-
T-56 6 speed, TKO-600, TKX, G-Force, Lenco, and of course Jerico. Joe-JDC
-
Thanks, I'll be shopping used and I would probably go for something that will bolt up to my bell.
A Jerico may be my best bet for price and fit,but was wondering about availability of parts for older models,
and since I don't know whats newer or older, that could be a problem if I bought something unserviceable.
Parts wise that is.
-
You want to avoid the DR4, which is the older Jerico that is no longer supported by them. There are quite a few parts out there for them, but you have to search and hope you get lucky. The DR4-4 is the newer design that they have, and supply parts for. And yes, it's really stupid of them not to support the older version. They basically gave a giant middle finger to anyone who bought their older design. NOT a good business practice.
-
You want to avoid the DR4, which is the older Jerico that is no longer supported by them. There are quite a few parts out there for them, but you have to search and hope you get lucky. The DR4-4 is the newer design that they have, and supply parts for. And yes, it's really stupid of them not to support the older version. They basically gave a giant middle finger to anyone who bought their older design. NOT a good business practice.
do they at least offer a discount for people who have bought a new dr4 transmission in the past? is the dr4-4 really that much better?
-
You want to avoid the DR4, which is the older Jerico that is no longer supported by them. There are quite a few parts out there for them, but you have to search and hope you get lucky. The DR4-4 is the newer design that they have, and supply parts for. And yes, it's really stupid of them not to support the older version. They basically gave a giant middle finger to anyone who bought their older design. NOT a good business practice.
do they at least offer a discount for people who have bought a new dr4 transmission in the past? is the dr4-4 really that much better?
In my experience, yes the DR4-4 is a much better gear box.
My really old DR4
(https://i.postimg.cc/W3PxbDtN/DSCN1398.jpg)
My homemade DR4-4
(https://i.postimg.cc/j2cp1sxs/DSCN0691.jpg)
-
Thanks Doug, with out asking I would have bought the DR4 not knowing better.
Tunnel port,could you explain what "home made" means? A conversion of sorts?
-
Thanks Doug, with out asking I would have bought the DR4 not knowing better.
Tunnel port,could you explain what "home made" means? A conversion of sorts?
Home made. I built it on my work bench. I used a Roush case and a stock Jerico 26 spline input shaft and 32 spline output shaft.
Used a mix of Jerico and Emco gears. Used star dogs and a few home made things for it.
Work great. Excellent shifts and you could down shift and street drive it.
If I was going to buy another gear box though, I would get a TKX. ;)
-
T-56 6 speed, TKO-600, TKX, G-Force, Lenco, and of course Jerico. Joe-JDC
I'm running the TKO-600 in my '69 Mustang. I do not ever race it, and it's probably the only 427 which has ever been putt putt around town mostly, but I wanted a gear box that would hold up if I got on it. I had Modern Driveline build mine with the carbon fiber shift rings and the transmission is still a little notchy at 6,000 rpm. I got my TKO-600 just before the release of the TKX and from everything I've researched, the TKX is far superior in every way except the shorter overdrive. Smoother, stronger, reverse syncros, and a more compact case.
I also understand the Galaxies actually have a pretty small tunnel which would make the TKX a better choice.
-
Thanks everyone,and the Galaxie tunnel is on the small side.
-
Hightower 4 speed.
-
By the way, does anyone know what HP or Torque a Toploader can handle?
They ran them behind SOHC's in AFX cars.
My Cyclone has one with 625hp and 645 lbs/ft of torque in a 4000lb car, should I baby it?
-
The guys who flogged ‘em back then must have “tuned” those boxes quite a bit to help them survive.
If your TL is stockish and you go to the track with some slicks you might find what that torque limit is.
What year Cyclone tips the scales at 4000 lbs, with driver?
-
Weight is the killer, that and the traction compound, and tires used today. A toploader will hold 600 hp, it's the launch with 4000lbs, that will kill it. Years ago a friend had a foxbody with a stout 302 , yates heads, that made about 720hp ( as I remember), weight was 3200 lbs with driver and it killed a couple toploaders. Made the move to a Jerico, and that solved the transmission problem.
-
The guys who flogged ‘em back then must have “tuned” those boxes quite a bit to help them survive.
If your TL is stockish and you go to the track with some slicks you might find what that torque limit is.
What year Cyclone tips the scales at 4000 lbs, with driver?
Tom has a 70 Cyclone Spoiler, but even a stock 68-69 with a Fe will be there, or close to it. My 69 Fairlane Cobra fastback, with an stock iron headed and intake 428 and C6, was 4050, with me in it. That car had PS, PDB, and AC, with steel Magnum 500 , so a striper, or one with aluminum heads and intake would be lighter. But they are rather "chunky".
-
As a TKO600 owner since 2010 get a TKX mine will not go into 3rd gear at speed.
I would love to take mine to the track but I can’t get it into third to save my life.
-
Would a different shifter help 3rd gear? Will a TKO600 handle high rpm launches with slicks in a 4000 lb. car?Also would a TKX?
-
As a TKO600 owner since 2010 get a TKX mine will not go into 3rd gear at speed.
I would love to take mine to the track but I can’t get it into third to save my life.
This is a synchro problem. Easy fix on the work bench.
-
Would a different shifter help 3rd gear? Will a TKO600 handle high rpm launches with slicks in a 4000 lb. car?Also would a TKX?
1. No
2. Yes
3. Yes
-
Some good...and bad news: https://www.corral.net/threads/any-tko-600-users-had-third-gear-issues.1213440/
-
What manual trans missions are there that can handle drag strip duty in a 4000 lb.
Galaxie with slicks and 500 hp? My top loader is fine at the moment, but it may be the next weak link.
I don't need one at this moment but with summer shows and swap meets coming up, I'd like to have an idea of what to buy or stay away from, like something that appears in good shape but parts are no longer available for.
Thanks,Tom.
These guys say 900 ft/lbs. Go ahead try and break it I guess...
https://americanpowertrain.com/shop/transmissions/tkx-5-speed/tremec-tkx-extreme-upgrade/
-
Ok, the TKX with modifications has my attention. How bad do you have to butcher a 67 Fairlane trans tunnel though?
-
Ok, the TKX with modifications has my attention. How bad do you have to butcher a 67 Fairlane trans tunnel though?
You don't. It bolts right in a 67 Fairlane.
-
I would not recommend a 600 now that the TKX is out. So many of my customers complained about not being able to shift them quickly. There were things we could do to them to make them shift well, but it was pretty extensive. Haven't heard anything bad about the TKX's I've sold.
-
As a guy with 17 years on a TKO-600 and multiple installs, I agree with Brent, no reason to go TKO.
The TKX addressed the floor shape shortfalls, and although a customer installed one, and a friend also did a modified housing TKO, the lack of any complaining on the TKX, not overt praise, lets me only deduce that it fits much better. I will ask him specifically though
In terms of the 3rd gear shifting, I do absolutely think a shifter helps. I arguably in 17 years hit 3rd gear more than most, and I have found, it's more due to the lack of spring that allows an old Toploader guy to go "over and up" to 3rd, only to end up in the dead zone in between 3/5 gates. The aftermarket shifters have more of a 5th gear lockout which has to help. That being said, I don't miss 3rd anymore as I know where it is after all this time. Sort of proving the concept, not to mention, if it was exclusively a synchro issue, the other gears wouldn't work well either
I'd also say that an indexed bell is MUCH more important with the tight bearings of a TKO/TKX input shaft, and if running a diaphragm clutch, having the proper clutch lever throw to not overcenter. Each of these can contribute to shifting issues, although not everyone runs a diaphragm, still a valid issue if you do
Last, I cannot prove it helped, but I used Mopar ATF-4 in mine 17 years ago, because I had a ton of it left over. I will do it again if/when I change it, but no idea if that changed synchro engagement, but it is something different I did in mine.
I am in no way saying that better syncro design wasn't needed or didn't help, but once the loose nut behind the wheel stopped trying to shift it like a Toploader, I became very repeatable in finding 3rd gear at 6200 RPM or so
-
The issue with the TKO-600 and high rpm shifts (5500rpm+, but especially 6000rpm+) has to do with the big, heavy steel syncros. My TKO-600 was put together by Modern Driveline with carbon fiber syncros and it shifts fine at 6,000rpm, but it's still notchy. I mostly baby the 427, but there are occasions when I get on it. I've never missed a shift.
That said, like the 100% consensus in this thread, there is almost no reason to even consider the TKO series anymore since they don't really compete with each other as the TKO-600 was discontinued and replaced with the TKX.
TKX vs. TKO-600.
Strength = Equal
Weight = TKX
Case size = TKX
Shift Quality = TKX
Availability = TKX
Reliability = TKX
Cost = TKO-600 rebuilt, but barely.
-
As a guy with 17 years on a TKO-600 and multiple installs, I agree with Brent, no reason to go TKO.
The TKX addressed the floor shape shortfalls, and although a customer installed one, and a friend also did a modified housing TKO, the lack of any complaining on the TKX, not overt praise, lets me only deduce that it fits much better. I will ask him specifically though
In terms of the 3rd gear shifting, I do absolutely think a shifter helps. I arguably in 17 years hit 3rd gear more than most, and I have found, it's more due to the lack of spring that allows an old Toploader guy to go "over and up" to 3rd, only to end up in the dead zone in between 3/5 gates. The aftermarket shifters have more of a 5th gear lockout which has to help. That being said, I don't miss 3rd anymore as I know where it is after all this time. Sort of proving the concept, not to mention, if it was exclusively a synchro issue, the other gears wouldn't work well either
I'd also say that an indexed bell is MUCH more important with the tight bearings of a TKO/TKX input shaft, and if running a diaphragm clutch, having the proper clutch lever throw to not overcenter. Each of these can contribute to shifting issues, although not everyone runs a diaphragm, still a valid issue if you do
Last, I cannot prove it helped, but I used Mopar ATF-4 in mine 17 years ago, because I had a ton of it left over. I will do it again if/when I change it, but no idea if that changed synchro engagement, but it is something different I did in mine.
I am in no way saying that better syncro design wasn't needed or didn't help, but once the loose nut behind the wheel stopped trying to shift it like a Toploader, I became very repeatable in finding 3rd gear at 6200 RPM or so
Cyclone03's TKO600 is an older one. It probably still has the plastic shift fork pads. That would be the first things to get changed.
The shifter just needs the brass bushing. An oil clean out and change. And of course the synchro's. All easy fixes on the bench.
-
The one down side of a TKX vs TKO is the available input shaft lengths. I'm sure it doesn't matter to many people, but the ability to use your existing bell housing and driveshaft, makes a difference to me. I'd have already changed to a TKX if the top-loader-length input shaft was available. Instead I sent my TKO back to Hanlon for a refreshing and the latest upgrades.
-
The one down side of a TKX vs TKO is the available input shaft lengths. I'm sure it doesn't matter to many people, but the ability to use your existing bell housing and driveshaft, makes a difference to me. I'd have already changed to a TKX if the top-loader-length input shaft was available. Instead I sent my TKO back to Hanlon for a refreshing and the latest upgrades.
Yeah, that is certainly a negative for me as well. I would like to swap out my current Toploader in my 59, but not a big fan of having to spend even more $$$ on a QuickTime bellhousing, or a spacer plate to make up for the longer T5 length input shaft. Tremec makes a TKX to be a straight bolt up to the bellhousing for a GM Muncie, no idea why they wouldn`t offer a similar option for the Ford guys. I am sure there are many guys that would like to install a 5 speed overdrive transmission into their old Mustang/Cougar/Fairlane/Torino, etc, that would prefer not to deal with the input shaft situation.
-
The one down side of a TKX vs TKO is the available input shaft lengths. I'm sure it doesn't matter to many people, but the ability to use your existing bell housing and driveshaft, makes a difference to me. I'd have already changed to a TKX if the top-loader-length input shaft was available. Instead I sent my TKO back to Hanlon for a refreshing and the latest upgrades.
Yeah, that is certainly a negative for me as well. I would like to swap out my current Toploader in my 59, but not a big fan of having to spend even more $$$ on a QuickTime bellhousing, or a spacer plate to make up for the longer T5 length input shaft. Tremec makes a TKX to be a straight bolt up to the bellhousing for a GM Muncie, no idea why they wouldn`t offer a similar option for the Ford guys. I am sure there are many guys that would like to install a 5 speed overdrive transmission into their old Mustang/Cougar/Fairlane/Torino, etc, that would prefer not to deal with the input shaft situation.
The TKX comes with a Ford length input shaft, you can even order a 10 spline if you want.
But I would get the 26 spline, much better shaft.
Fits a stock FE or Quicktime bell.
Really hard to beat the TKX in price also. I wish I had an extra 4K in the wallet.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/rem-tcet17765
-
That would be good news if they came with the Ford short input shaft length. But I'm seeing it is 7.2" input shaft length, which will only work in the deeper FE truck bellhousing. The car bellhousing is only around 6.5" deep. Modern Driveline site mentions the short shaft option, but didn't think that was an option yet.
https://www.moderndriveline.com/shop/transmissions/5-speed-transmissions/tkx/ford-tkx/ford-tkx600rr-2-87-1st-gear-with-0-81-od-26-spline-input/
-
That would be good news if they came with the Ford short input shaft length. But I'm seeing it is 7.2" input shaft length, which will only work in the deeper FE truck bellhousing. The car bellhousing is only around 6.5" deep. Modern Driveline site mentions the short shaft option, but didn't think that was an option yet.
https://www.moderndriveline.com/shop/transmissions/5-speed-transmissions/tkx/ford-tkx/ford-tkx600rr-2-87-1st-gear-with-0-81-od-26-spline-input/
That is my understanding as well, the TKX comes with a T5 length input shaft, which is much longer than a FE bellhousing. And the PU truck bellhousing is still far too shallow for the 7.2" input shaft. The truck bellhousing is only about 3/8" deeper than a FE car bellhousing.
-
Lots of good info and precautions,thanks for sharing.
-
That would be good news if they came with the Ford short input shaft length. But I'm seeing it is 7.2" input shaft length, which will only work in the deeper FE truck bellhousing. The car bellhousing is only around 6.5" deep. Modern Driveline site mentions the short shaft option, but didn't think that was an option yet.
https://www.moderndriveline.com/shop/transmissions/5-speed-transmissions/tkx/ford-tkx/ford-tkx600rr-2-87-1st-gear-with-0-81-od-26-spline-input/
That is my understanding as well, the TKX comes with a T5 length input shaft, which is much longer than a FE bellhousing. And the PU truck bellhousing is still far too shallow for the 7.2" input shaft. The truck bellhousing is only about 3/8" deeper than a FE car bellhousing.
These guys say "Bolts up to a standard Ford Toploader bellhousing or use a Quicktime bellhousing.".
I'm sure they can get a box to fit your spec. Just pry that wallet open a little further. lol
https://americanpowertrain.com/shop/transmissions/tremec-tkx-5-speed-tuet18086-ford-10-spline-72-5th-gear/
-
I installed a T56 Magnum 6 speed in my Torino a year or so ago.
It seems to shift quite nicely at well over 7000 RPM.
The overdrive(s) are nice with the 4.86 gear in back.
It is, however, huge.
Required pretty dramatic transmission tunnel modifications.
Not a real big deal on my car since the tunnel had been butchered numerous time over the years.
I used a bunch of "bolt on" parts including a Quick Time bell housing, a McLeod dual disc clutch, and American Powertrain hydraulic throwout kit.
About the best thing I can say is that I indeed did use bolts to assemble it, after the Bridgeport had it's way with the bearing housing and making bell housing spacers, etc.
-
No one has mentioned the Doug Nash 5 Speed, or the $4,000 Richmond Gear Super Street 5-Speed?
re:
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/school-me-on-doug-nash-richmond-5-speed-trannies.719988/
-
I did wonder about that trans, thanks for the link.
-
Jay also ran a Richmond/Doug Nash 5-speed long ago behind an FE in a Mustang.
30 years now on my Richmond 5-speed behind a near 500 HP SBF and about 20K miles. Hurst shifter works great btw. Mine is a odd one as when I ordered it, no Ford splined trannys were available and the wait time was long. Instead, I bought Chevy splined input and TH400 splined output tranny. With a fine splined clutch disc and the TH400 yoke easily added to my Ford driveshaft, I was in business. Low 1st gear (3 series) and a direct drive 1-1 5th gear, it's been a great transmission for sure. I liked (then and now) that in 5th, I get minimal HP loss unlike overdriven transmissions.
-
I still have mine, and it is the same as Bob's, with the Chev fine spline input. Not sure about the output shaft. The only thing I didn't like about it was the speedo gear setup, which I believe was for a Chevrolet gear and cable. I tried to modify it to make Ford speedo gear work, but without success, so I just ended up plugging it and running without a speedo back in the 80s and 90s. Never had a bit of trouble with the trans behind a nitrous injected 428CJ. I don't know if the newer Richmond versions have internal changes, but when I looked at one on their web site and saw 450 foot pounds for the torque capacity, I was quite surprised. I ran a 225 HP shot in my 428, and that probably got me to 600+ foot pounds of torque. Either they are extremely conservative with their rating, or they have downsized the internals of the trans.
-
Looks like they are offering a short shaft kit to work with a FE bellhousing for the TKX now, Tremec part TCKT18210.
-
I have been searching and found no mention of a short shaft for the TKX. Brent shortened the shaft on my TKO 600 for use on the 427 with the stock bellhousing. Not sure if the TKX can be shortened. I am looking for another 5 spd for my 67 but am particular on my 5th gear. I want a .82 overdrive (same as the 68) not a .64..American Powertrain sell two versions of the TKX and they sell the one I want.I like the gear spread on the road race transmissions.
They also make a spacer/adapter for use on a stock bellhousing. The 67 has a scatter shield but the depth is stock.Not sure how the spacer will affect the shifter location but i can deal with that.....Cory
https://americanpowertrain.com/shop/transmission-kits/1965-73-mustang-cougar-tremec-tkx-5-speed-kit/
-
Cory, you must have missed the part number I supplied above. Here is a link to Modern Driveline.
https://www.moderndriveline.com/shop/solutions/engine-solutions/tkx-short-input-shaft-kit-10-spline-copy/
-
It would be nice if they will make this shorter, Toploader length input shaft available in a new transmission, rather than buy the trans, pay more for the short input, and then have to tear a new transmission apart to instal it.
And for the guys with other transmissions that say they have no issues shifting their TKO, or Nash/Richmond 5 speeds, just curious how they use their transmissions. If running at the dragstrip, are they lifting off the gas pedal during the shifts, or shifting at WOT, with the gas pedal flat on the floor? When I race my cars, regardless if it`s a Jerico, G Force, Toploader, or even a T5, I shift at WOT, and if any transmision I am considering won`t shift in such a manner, I have no interest in it. The current small input/out in my 4000 pound 59, gets babied of the line, simply because I am worried about breaking it on hard launches, so I slip the clutch a bit at 2000 RPM, and ease into the throttle, which must hurt the 60 foots and ETs considerably (best of 1.80 60 foot, and 12.54 @ 108 MPH so far, thru the mufflers), but once it`s rolling, I lean on it pretty hard.
-
Cory, you must have missed the part number I supplied above. Here is a link to Modern Driveline.
https://www.moderndriveline.com/shop/solutions/engine-solutions/tkx-short-input-shaft-kit-10-spline-copy/
I did miss that...I wonder which TKX it fits....
-
It looks to me like that input shaft would be perfect. It looks to be the small block length so trimming the snout for a FE would be simple if needed.It is also a 10 spline so clutch disc change may not be required. Assuming it is 1 1/16 x10. The TKX is over kill for my 67 but thats OK......Yes its a lot of money....Cory
-
I wish they would have put a higher first gear in that wide ratio. By the time you go low enough rear gear for the overdrive, that 3.27 first gear is useless. Based on my calculations, the close ratio would be easier to gear for, in a street car anyway.
-
I agree...Its far to much of a gear spread. 1st or 5th will end up being useless. I am after the close ratio with the 2.87 1st and the .81 5th. Car currently has a W/R toploader so 1st is at least close to my 2.78. Cory