Cooling upgrades

[Drew Pojedinec]

I'd normally post on the FE forum, but it is looking a little dangerous there today....  perhaps the heat is getting to folks.
Thankfully here in southern Georgia it isn't that hot.  Heck I still have jeans, boots, a tshirt and my button down shirt over that.  But it is hot enough I had to break out the large straw hat.

So speaking of heat.  My new engine build isn't thrilled with the 100 degree days either.

Situation is as such:
Engine is a 446 stroker, which I've posted about plenty recently.  Cooling system is a stock waterpump, 185 thermostat, Griffin radiator, dual flex-a-lite fans rated at 1100cfms and draw 8 amps, pushing and mounted in front of radiator.
Timing is 18 initial and 32 total in by 2850rpms or therebouts.
The fan's barely kept the old engine cool enough, and that was 100-150hp less of an engine.  I knew the fan's would be marginal at best, but I was mostly concerned with getting the engine running last time I was home.... figure I'd work out the details later.

-When running hard out on the country roads the engine is running peachy.  180 and lower, even 170 which kicks off my fans.
When pulling into town the engine is obviously overheating, gauges immediately shoots past 200 and engine begins to idle badly and I need to keep a lil throttle in order to keep her from stalling.  When parking car, overflow tank is full and pushing some coolant onto the ground.

This issue seems straightforward, the fans aren't doing their job well enough.  Solution I will pursue is changing them with two 12inch Spal fans which are rated at 1277cfms and draw 14amps.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/spu-ix-30101505

Yes I know pulling is more efficient, but I like pusher fans because I have more room there, and I like the appearance better.
I suspect the stock waterpump is suffcient, and also suspect the Radiator is up to task.  (feel free to comment on either)

Question
My painless harness has a 20 amp relay for each fan.  (actually it has three relays for some reason).  Each relay says 12v 2X20amps.  I'm not fluent in electrical, so I assume this is 20amps, but I guess it could mean 40amps?
Is this sufficient for the task or do I need to upgrade the relays?

-Next issue
Due to running a radiator that has a radiator cap, and also running a surge tank (mostly for looks to be honest) I have two radiator caps.  I put a 14psi on the surge tank and a 7psi on the radiator.  I used the 7psi cap because I didn't want to overpressurize a surge tank.
My issue with this is that when parking and all coolant goes back into the system there is 4inches of air in the radiator, which isn't right since I have the surge tank.... so I obviously didn't think that through too well.
Plan for the future is to put the 14psi or higher on the radiator so it never leaks and putting the lower pressure cap on the surge tank and running the overflow hose from the surge tank.  No coolant leaks in or out of the engine are apparent.
Question
Is this a decent plan to keep the radiator topped off or does anyone have a better idea?


Any input would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks a lot!
Drew

[blykins]

Could you fit one of those 4000 cfm Taurus fans in there? 

Good call on the other forum.  I think it's everyone's time of the month in there. 

[Drew Pojedinec]

Here is the issue with a single fan on my car...
You either need to trim the hood latch support if it's a pusher.  Or the fan needs to be super slim in order to not hit the waterpump if it's a puller.
That is why I kinda like running dual fans.

I have 2.25 inches between radiator and waterpump pulley.  I have 3.25 inches between hood latch support on the pusher side.  Otherwise a junkyard run would certainly be in order.

I've got a lil time to figure this out, I have to attend a class in New Orleans this whole next week.  (Leadership and management for Merchant Marine officers.... blech, what boring stuff)

[e philpott]

Like the daul spals .... my Merzie pump just fits between the two fans like it was made for it , the fans kick butt on my half fill block

[jayb]

I think you've got the right idea on both counts.  The Spal fans are like tornadoes, they will really move the air through the radiator and should solve your cooling problem at low speeds.

On the relays, the contacts are rated at 20 amps, but there are probably two poles (sets of contacts) in the relay, and maybe only one is used with the Painless harness.  Just guessing.  One relay per fan is what you want to do.

I also think that putting the 7 pound cap on the surge tank should keep your radiator full, since the surge tank is higher. 

[BH107]

The Ford Contour fans are a good option for an OEM type fan and fit the Galaxie radiator pretty well. They also are offset so give adequate clearance to the water pump pulley. Plus they are cheap!

[Drew Pojedinec]

On the relays, the contacts are rated at 20 amps, but there are probably two poles (sets of contacts) in the relay, and maybe only one is used with the Painless harness.  Just guessing.  One relay per fan is what you want to do.

There are technically three relays all marked the same, one runs to each fan, and I forget what the third does (I wired it up a few years ago).  I'll assume they will be sufficient until proven otherwise.
Ben, thanks for the tip on the contour fans, I'll look into it.

Another part I forgot to mention, last time I was home I was in a hurry to get the engine installed/fired/cam broken in and I got to drive the car.
Might seem like I was in too big of a hurry.... but I spent 2 years saving for/building the engine, so the prospect of being 99.5% done and not driving the car before going offshore for a month was abhorrent.
Today, while scratching my head and staring at the engine, I realized I used a 5.5inch march crank pulley and a larger water pump pulley....
Duh.
Perhaps not the entire issue, but certainly not helping at all being way underdriven.

So ordered a 5.5inch waterpump pulley and will get some more potent fans and I suspect I'll have no other issues.

Thanks for the input.  (I'll always figure this stuff out, but it often helps to make it public... seems like I flesh out my issue faster this way for some weird reason).
Drew

[blykins]

Always good to have someone to bounce ideas off of.    I've got a couple good engine builder buddies who I call on occasion and run ideas past.

[Katz427]

FYI I had to test a whole group of the various electric fans over a period of probably 4 years. I worked for a supplier that made the cooling fans for Ford. We probably evaluated about all of them including Spal. The clear winner was the fans designed by a company in New England called Air Research. The blades had a longer chord length , and were swept. The particular design was chosen for the Taurus. It flowed a lot more air and developed a lot more pressure. I noted that most of the fans were rated at a by the manufacturer at a very low pressure. Many of the fans were in stall at a very low pressure. If you had a 1 row coil, that was about the limit. The Spal fans were rated better than most and actually had more chord length which gave them more pressure before they stalled. The Taurus fan was the clear winner as it lost less flow as the thickness of the radiator (resistance) increased. The upshot is that those "skinny" blade fans really fall flat on their face as resistance increases.

[cjshaker]

These are all just my opinions, so take them for what their worth....about .05 Peso currently

I'm not a fan of aluminum radiators on street cars unless they're really oversized. Copper is much better at heat transfer (check out this link: http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/thermalP/Lesson-1/Rates-of-Heat-Transfer). Flex-a-Lite fans are junk. A 185* thermostat is fairly high, it won't be fully open till a little bit higher. The heat being generated from your engine is likely being sucked into your intake, causing the idle and stall issue when hot.

For what it's worth, I'm using the March underdrive pulleys on my Mach 1 with an all iron 427, pushing 500hp. I don't have any heat issues, and it's been around 90*+ with 75%+ humidity for the last few weeks. I have no issues running the car at these temps. Although I don't get into bumper to bumper traffic, I do do a lot of slow cruising through towns. I'm running a 160* thermostat, factory oil cooler, stock type copper radiator, Edelbrock water pump, previously mentioned March pulleys, and an aftermarket full blade flex fan, not one of those thin blade types. In VERY slow traffic on a hot day, the highest I've seen is 205*. That's in a cramped Mustang engine compartment with ceramic coated headers.

[Heo]

Finally Dough, Someone that agree with me on the
copper vs aluminium

[machoneman]

These are all just my opinions, so take them for what their worth....about .05 Peso currently

I'm not a fan of aluminum radiators on street cars unless they're really oversized. Copper is much better at heat transfer (check out this link: http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/thermalP/Lesson-1/Rates-of-Heat-Transfer). Flex-a-Lite fans are junk. A 185* thermostat is fairly high, it won't be fully open till a little bit higher. The heat being generated from your engine is likely being sucked into your intake, causing the idle and stall issue when hot.

For what it's worth, I'm using the March underdrive pulleys on my Mach 1 with an all iron 427, pushing 500hp. I don't have any heat issues, and it's been around 90*+ with 75%+ humidity for the last few weeks. I have no issues running the car at these temps. Although I don't get into bumper to bumper traffic, I do do a lot of slow cruising through towns. I'm running a 160* thermostat, factory oil cooler, stock type copper radiator, Edelbrock water pump, previously mentioned March pulleys, and an aftermarket full blade flex fan, not one of those thin blade types. In VERY slow traffic on a hot day, the highest I've seen is 205*. That's in a cramped Mustang engine compartment with ceramic coated headers.

But a flex fan, especially a big one, eats up lots of otherwise free hp!

http://www.network54.com/Forum/215655/message/1066184641/Car+Craft+Cooling+Fan+Dyno+Test

[Lenz]

I still get too hot idling for "long" slow puts through town and heavy traffic.  I also am running a 160 thermostat, fabricated shroud and using a stock pump with an aftermarket flex fan.  I've not taken it to the point where I've overheated it but I do know that it just doesn't like to keep up unless I'm moving along, then no problem.  I had a guy tell me that some of the stock replacement pumps are junk and they won't move enough water at idle (something about the impeller material I think?), and I am also beginning to think that I want to get away from the aluminum radiator as this isn't the first time I've heard about efficiency for heat transfer there.

[machoneman]

I still get too hot idling for "long" slow puts through town and heavy traffic.  I also am running a 160 thermostat, fabricated shroud and using a stock pump with an aftermarket flex fan.  I've not taken it to the point where I've overheated it but I do know that it just doesn't like to keep up unless I'm moving along, then no problem.  I had a guy tell me that some of the stock replacement pumps are junk and they won't move enough water at idle (something about the impeller material I think?), and I am also beginning to think that I want to get away from the aluminum radiator as this isn't the first time I've heard about efficiency for heat transfer there.

Lenz, where do you live? I have 3 like new SS flex fans, all with different pitches, that I tried on my '70 Stang. I switched long ago to a an OEM type thermo clutch fan and love it for both cooling and low sound. All 3 fans were loud at cruising speeds of say 2,300-2,400 rpm, this over the sound of a worked near 500HP 358 Windsor with Flowmasters!  I'd be glad to ship them to you for a try if you'd like as they will (and are) just collecting dust in garage and they will not go back on the car.

[afret]

I've tried 3 different radiators and they all seem to work well.  I had the stock brass radiator recored to 4 rows, an aluminum 3 pass radiator with 2 rows of  1" tubes and now I have an aluminum single pass radiator with 2 rows of 1.25" tubes.  I had no problem cooling the 482 with a Contour fan setup with all three radiators.

[Lenz]

Lenz, where do you live? I have 3 like new SS flex fans, all with different pitches, that I tried on my '70 Stang. I switched long ago to a an OEM type thermo clutch fan and love it for both cooling and low sound. All 3 fans were loud at cruising speeds of say 2,300-2,400 rpm, this over the sound of a worked near 500HP 358 Windsor with Flowmasters!  I'd be glad to ship them to you for a try if you'd like as they will (and are) just collecting dust in garage and they will not go back on the car.

Thanks for the offer Bob, but I know I would not like the racket they put up, got a brother in law with one in a chebbie and it's near all you can hear.  The original fan worked with my tired 390, but neither it or the Summit piece I've got in there now get it done with the 445.  That whole Countour fan setup sounds like a decent cost effective winter diversion project, I'm sure we've got some in our local boneyards.  I have plenty of room between the radiator and pump pulley, think that's the route I'll try.

[Falcon67]

... dual flex-a-lite fans rated at 1100cfms and draw 8 amps, pushing and mounted in front of radiator.

IMHO, that is part of your issue.  Pusher fans are WAY less efficient than pullers.  Also, they do a good job of blocking air through the radiator, especially on the wind side of it.  Those spinning blades turn into circles of cardboard at speed.  Note this factory style electric fan shroud and the  large ports specifically there to bleed off pressure building up on the front side.



Also, 1100 CFM isn't anywhere close to what you probably need.  Another thing to keep in mind for aluminum - hotter is better.  180 is marginal, 195 better.  OEM cars with aluminum radiators, ever see a 170 or 180 thermostat in one?  No, 200+.  Also, a tight fin count on a copper brass setup reduces the effectiveness of each additional core.  So you need more pull - a LOT more fan pull - to go from a 3 core brass unit to a 4 core than you'd need for a dual 1" core aluminum unit. 

[Falcon67]

... dual flex-a-lite fans rated at 1100cfms and draw 8 amps, pushing and mounted in front of radiator.

IMHO, that is part of your issue.  Pusher fans are WAY less efficient than pullers.  Also, they do a good job of blocking air through the radiator, especially on the wind side of it.  Those spinning blades turn into circles of cardboard at speed.  Note this factory style electric fan shroud and the  large ports specifically there to bleed off pressure building up on the front side.



Also, 1100 CFM isn't anywhere close to what you probably need.  Another thing to keep in mind for aluminum - hotter is better.  180 is marginal, 195 better.  OEM cars with aluminum radiators, ever see a 170 or 180 thermostat in one?  No, 200+.  If you want a cool motor, you need to heat up the working fluid.  Also, a tight fin count on a copper brass setup reduces the effectiveness of each additional core.  So you need more pull - a LOT more fan pull - to go from a 3 core brass unit to a 4 core than you'd need for a dual 1" core aluminum unit.

[Drew Pojedinec]

Doug,
Any opinion on one of my threads is always appreciated.
As far as aluminum vs copper/brass/stock radiator, I agree with you on a technical level, tho it's a moot point right now.  The car came with an aluminum radiator and I don't think I'm going to change it unless given no other option.

Chris, I completely agree with you on the pusher vs puller point of view.  I'm still on the fence  regarding making the jump to the other side of the radiator.  I really love the clean look of having the fans hidden.
I'm not concerned whatsoever about them blocking air tho as I have zero issues with cooling at any speed other than idle.
The 1100cfm is for each fan.  I tend to think that flex-a-lite was a little liberal with their rating tho.  As stated the previous engine which was MUCH tamer was on the edge of too hot with this setup.

When I get home (Friday-Saturday) I'll let ya all know what worked as I'm going to change one thing at a time.

[cjshaker]

Just to add to what I mentioned before, I don't think a lower thermostat would help. If your car is getting hot, the thermostat will be full open, assuming it is working properly.

Just for the sake of the conversation, a friends Jeep with a basically stock SBC transplant had overheating issues. It had Flex-a-Lite fans on it. They were replaced with a good Spal unit and that was enough to cure it.

But a flex fan, especially a big one, eats up lots of otherwise free hp!

http://www.network54.com/Forum/215655/message/1066184641/Car+Craft+Cooling+Fan+Dyno+Test

About 12-15 horsepower, according to that article and the fan I'm using. I don't want an electric fan on my car, and I think the clutch fans are ugly. And since it's my car....

[Stangman]

Everybody has there own preferences and what works on someones car may not work on another they say theres an ass for every seat

[FElony]

Deleted

[Stangman]

Felony that's perfect is that NOS

[Joey120373]

That rear end is kinda epic......


I am kind of an electronics guy, wondering about the 3 relays...
As Jay pointed out, most of the "standard" or "unoversal" relays have 2 contacts, one provides a path for current when the relay is off, the other provides a path for current when the relay is energized.
Most instances ignore the OFF pole, however since your set up has 3 relays, I'm wondering if the third relay puts the fans in series, this would allow both fans to run at half speed.

[FElony]

Deleted

[Drew Pojedinec]

Appreciate your ramble Felony.  I picked up some good tidbits from it.

If I recall, I ran a 50amp fuse to the relays, than smaller ones after the relays.
Yes there is a temperature switch in the intake.  When I get back home, I'll look into why there is a third relay....  curious now.

My understanding of relays is a large wire running to a piece of equipment that is triggered by a smaller wire. 

[blykins]

That rear end is kinda epic......


I am kind of an electronics guy, wondering about the 3 relays...
As Jay pointed out, most of the "standard" or "unoversal" relays have 2 contacts, one provides a path for current when the relay is off, the other provides a path for current when the relay is energized.
Most instances ignore the OFF pole, however since your set up has 3 relays, I'm wondering if the third relay puts the fans in series, this would allow both fans to run at half speed.

The standard relay you refer to is a SPDT, or single pole double throw. This is a 5-lug which, as you say, outputs through the center position what is put into terminal 30 at rest, and outputs through the outboard terminal 87 when the coil is energized. There are 4-lug single pole single throws (SPST) which eliminate the center at rest output.

A relay as described with a 2x20 is a Double Pole Single Throw. They will typically have 87a and 87b marked terminals which both output from terminal 30 when closed (energized). There is no at rest output. They are used to provide power to two circuits which must remain separate from each other. Thus, it is best to place the fuse for each circuit after the outputs, so if one shorts it doesn't interrupt the power to the other.

DPST's are getting kind of scarce these days. We used to use them, in alarms, to flash the parking light circuits of European cars, as most of them had separate right and left hand circuits and were fused that way from the maker. Domestic and Japanese cars had both sides in one circuit, so a SPST or SPDT worked there. The original DPST Bosch relays were actually silver metal cased with a green diagonal stripe across the face.

Strange that Painless would use those. Technically, if those really are DPST, and they all trigger from a thermo switch, you would have 6 separate, isolated outputs rated at 20 amps apiece. Putting two 12v circuits in series would give you 24v, which would cause a 12v fan to turn twice as fast for a few moments until it burned up (unless the motor is rated to 24v). Paralleling two 12v circuits would double the amount of amperage capacity, staying at 12v.

There's a fair amount of tech involved in "properly" building aftermarket or upgraded factory circuitry. In my former career, I would burn through a couple 100-relay trays a month. I wrote tech papers and did seminars on the subject. When somebody applied for a job with me, I placed a relay on the desk and ask him to tell me how they actually worked. If they couldn't, then there was no second question.

These days, much of that tech can be found online. Some can't. OMG, I'm a relay Nazi.

I would pay to sit through one of your seminars.

"OK, shut up and listen you bunch of idiots...."

[shady]

I'll call bs. on the 24 volt theory. can't happen unless you have two independent 12v batteries in the car.

[cjshaker]

I'll call bs. on the 24 volt theory. can't happen unless you have two independent 12v batteries in the car.

Or a transformer, and not the robot kind.

[jayb]

I'll call bs. on the 24 volt theory. can't happen unless you have two independent 12v batteries in the car.

He did say putting two 12V circuits in series, so I assumed he was talking about two separate batteries.  Obviously can't happen with a single battery.

And Felony, although we all enjoy your pictures, there are plenty of other sites people can visit to see that sort of thing.  Not here, please...

[runthatjunk]

That rear end is kinda epic......


I am kind of an electronics guy, wondering about the 3 relays...
As Jay pointed out, most of the "standard" or "unoversal" relays have 2 contacts, one provides a path for current when the relay is off, the other provides a path for current when the relay is energized.
Most instances ignore the OFF pole, however since your set up has 3 relays, I'm wondering if the third relay puts the fans in series, this would allow both fans to run at half speed.

The way I see it it would require two double pole double throw fan control relays to make it go series in order to run the fans at half or full voltage which is an interesting idea I think it would require a couple of diodes in  the circuits somewhere though

[FElony]

Deleted

[FElony]

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[FElony]

And Felony, although we all enjoy your pictures, there are plenty of other sites people can visit to see that sort of thing.  Not here, please...

That sort of thing? A work of art? And you didn't delete it because?

[FElony]

Deleted

[jayb]

And Felony, although we all enjoy your pictures, there are plenty of other sites people can visit to see that sort of thing.  Not here, please...

That sort of thing? A work of art? And you didn't delete it because?

Well, I hate deleting anything; seems to take away from the openness of the discussion.  But surely you understand that some people may be offended by that photo...

[FElony]

Deleted

[turbohunter]

As much as I admire the female form I also realize that those same men being men can get a bit carried away at times. Witness other forums where guys that all love the very same thing can get so absorbed into what they think/do/say that things get out of hand. You have to admit that FElony can get a bit edgy sometimes. It's his nature and I don't begrudge him that.
In this case it doesn't offend me but maybe the next picture is a bit more explicit, then the next and so on.
So I also don't begrudge Mr. Brown any bit of oversight. Even though it is a great butt.

[cjshaker]

Anybody here want me to go into the ranks of the vanilla? Speak up!

Then I'll speak up. I don't like having to explain to my wife why the picture was there as she walks by. And you can refrain from making any comments about my wife.

[FElony]

Anybody here want me to go into the ranks of the vanilla? Speak up!

Then I'll speak up. I don't like having to explain to my wife why the picture was there as she walks by. And you can refrain from making any comments about my wife.

You wouldn't have to explain anything to your wife unless you had your screen locked on to that picture all day. Old Chinese Proverb: It doesn't matter where you get your appetite, as long as you eat at home.

[jayb]

Doug is not the only one with that concern, Felony.  I would never try to drive you into the land of Casper C. Milquetoast, but a little more discretion, please...

[Falcon67]

Missed it, but if NSFW then it's a good thing.  Gotta check my Forums between projects LOL! 

[FElony]

Missed it, but if NSFW then it's a good thing.  Gotta check my Forums between projects LOL! 

I think I'll shay-shay over to Yellow Bullet for a few months and shatter some kneecaps. I've spared those miserable curs for far too long.

[Drew Pojedinec]

Well..... at any rate, to round out the thread.

Installed:
Edelbrock water pump
2, 12inch spal fans pushing
Water pump pulley changed from 7.25 inches to 5inches.

Moved 7psi radiator cap from radiator to surge tank.  Moved 13psi cap to radiator.  Filled radiator up to the top, filled surge take to an inch or two from the top.
I also bumped the idle speed from 850 to 1000.

Went for a very spirited ride (I try to beat on stuff pretty hard to see if it'll survive) and the car never saw anything over 188degrees.  Coming to a stop in town car would idle a little under 200 but ran fine.... no special requirement to keep the car running, idled as smooth as can be expected, all things considered.

Pulling into my shop water temp was 200.  I left it idling for about 10 minutes and after creeping to 210 degrees it didn't seem like it was going to go any higher.  I need to shoot the headers with a temp gun as they seem to be very hot.  Plugs don't show a lean condition, all are nice and golden brown.  The number 5 plug looked whiter than the rest previously, but it appears fine after this run. 
Previously the water was pushing pretty hard into the overflow, didn't get a drop in there this time.

For the record, it's very very hot here, so I'm going to call this a success.

Thanks to everyone for the input.

[Falcon67]

Missed it, but if NSFW then it's a good thing.  Gotta check my Forums between projects LOL! 

I think I'll shay-shay over to Yellow Bullet for a few months and shatter some kneecaps. I've spared those miserable curs for far too long.

LOL, look up NSFW in the dictionary and theres a link to the bullet.