CVR Electric Water Pump Adapters for the FE

[fetorino]

Jay

That adapter is looking pretty slick.  I know a guy that would buy a set from you.

Rob

[Rory428]

Those adapter/mounting brackets look great Jay! Would you be selling a complete setup including the 55 GPM CVR pump and adapters, on just the adapters alone? Any idea on pricing yet? As for the Meziere remote setup, one of the racers in our stickshift group has a mid 9 SB MoPar powered 69 Dart with a complete Meziere cooling system. It has an aluminum radiator with remote water pump attatched directly to the side tank. It is a beautiful piece of engineering, it looks and works great. Not sure on the price however.
As for electric water pumps in general, both my FE Fairmont and SBF 85 Mustang currently use Moroso electric water pump drives with cogged belts, and "normal" water pumps. (Edelbrock on the 427, stock aluminum 5.0 Mustang unit on the Mustang.) I have ran the stock V belt set up on the Fairmont, along with an old lightweight green Flexalite fiberglass fan. There was just a stock single groove crank pulley, a large Moroso alternator pulley, and a stock single groove water pump pulley. Performance wise, the car didn`t go any quicker with the electric setup, the main reason I used the electric pump drive was so I can let the water pump run after a pass with the engine shut off, makes cool down between runs easier. I certainly wouldn`t run one on a street car though, as the motor is just a Ford heater fan motor. DalePs 67 Mustang still has a  stock style fan belt driven alt and water pump, and it runs 9.7s. Of course there can be considerable improvments by reducing parasitic belt driven drag. A buddy of mine had a bone stock 87 Mustang GT 5.0 5 speed, with slicks. Leaving at 5000 RPM, the car was running 14.2s at 96 MPH, Just for fun, he cooled the car down, pushing it up to the front of staging lanes, and totally removed the serpentine belt. The crankshaft was spinning nothing. The car picked up to a 13.9 at 99 MPH with no other changes.  Later I tried the same trick on my daily driver 302 5 speed street Fairmont. I removed both V belts in the staging lanes, and reinstalled them on the return road . My car also picked up 3 full tenths, although I imagine that all the stock pulleys were of a high speed variety, since in stock form, the Fairmont  was equipped with 2.47 gears in the diff. I imagine that was why the crankpulley was so large, to spin the alternator and other accesseries at sufficent speed.

[jayb]

Thanks Rory, glad you like them.  I'm thinking I'd just be selling the adapters, because the CVR pumps are readily available through Summit, but if there is a lot of interest I may contact CVR and try to get a quantity discount so I could sell the pumps a little cheaper.  As far as the adapters, I'm thinking around $200 for the pair; believe it or not, there is over $60 in aluminum bar in two of those things, and there will be quite a bit of CNC time in each one.

I should elaborate a little bit on my conversations with Meziere, so that I don't mislead anybody on that.  When I called them I was talking about a 650-700 HP street car, and the reason they didn't think that their FE pump could keep up was freeway driving in hot weather.  The specific example they gave me was if I was going down the freeway at 3000 RPM, a high horsepower engine needs more waterflow than their 42 gpm pump can provide.  They said that their remote 55 gpm pump would be no problem in this situation, but the 42 gpm pump was marginal.  This is a lot different than a drag strip application, of course, where you don't have the sustained heat buildup that you have at constant highway speeds.  So it wouldn't surprise me if their 42 gpm pump for the FE would work fine at the track on a high horsepower engine. 

The other thing I don't understand though is why Meziere offers a 55 gpm pump for a 429-460, or a big block Chev, or a small block Chev for that matter, and not for the FE.  Go figure...

[jayb]

Jay

That adapter is looking pretty slick.  I know a guy that would buy a set from you.

Rob

I kind of figured you might be in the market for those, since you're the one who sent me the pump LOL!

[fe66comet]

How about a Gilmore drive?

[jmlay]

I am just thinking aloud but, is it possible to move the lower alt mounts lower or rotate it down & to the left without requiring larger stock? This my move the alt up, could be undesirable as well. In any the proto looks great!

[machoneman]

That's a great story on the e.t. effects. I wonder though if you had repeated the same test (belts on) with a themal clutch fan, then no belts, if the e.t. gain would have been nearly as big. The now old Car Craft test data I had posted here and on the old forum cleary showed that, short of no belt or fan, a Ford OEM type thermal clutch and steel fan ate the least hp. Barry R also mentioned that it was about a 12 hp gain w/o any pump/belt (hope I am quoting him correctly). That is nothing to sneeze at but that 12 hp at the crank would be way short of producing a 3/10ths' gain! JMO.   

Those adapter/mounting brackets look great Jay! Would you be selling a complete setup including the 55 GPM CVR pump and adapters, on just the adapters alone? Any idea on pricing yet? As for the Meziere remote setup, one of the racers in our stickshift group has a mid 9 SB MoPar powered 69 Dart with a complete Meziere cooling system. It has an aluminum radiator with remote water pump attatched directly to the side tank. It is a beautiful piece of engineering, it looks and works great. Not sure on the price however.
As for electric water pumps in general, both my FE Fairmont and SBF 85 Mustang currently use Moroso electric water pump drives with cogged belts, and "normal" water pumps. (Edelbrock on the 427, stock aluminum 5.0 Mustang unit on the Mustang.) I have ran the stock V belt set up on the Fairmont, along with an old lightweight green Flexalite fiberglass fan. There was just a stock single groove crank pulley, a large Moroso alternator pulley, and a stock single groove water pump pulley. Performance wise, the car didn`t go any quicker with the electric setup, the main reason I used the electric pump drive was so I can let the water pump run after a pass with the engine shut off, makes cool down between runs easier. I certainly wouldn`t run one on a street car though, as the motor is just a Ford heater fan motor. DalePs 67 Mustang still has a  stock style fan belt driven alt and water pump, and it runs 9.7s. Of course there can be considerable improvments by reducing parasitic belt driven drag. A buddy of mine had a bone stock 87 Mustang GT 5.0 5 speed, with slicks. Leaving at 5000 RPM, the car was running 14.2s at 96 MPH, Just for fun, he cooled the car down, pushing it up to the front of staging lanes, and totally removed the serpentine belt. The crankshaft was spinning nothing. The car picked up to a 13.9 at 99 MPH with no other changes.  Later I tried the same trick on my daily driver 302 5 speed street Fairmont. I removed both V belts in the staging lanes, and reinstalled them on the return road . My car also picked up 3 full tenths, although I imagine that all the stock pulleys were of a high speed variety, since in stock form, the Fairmont  was equipped with 2.47 gears in the diff. I imagine that was why the crankpulley was so large, to spin the alternator and other accesseries at sufficent speed.

[machoneman]

The 55 gph pump for BBC's and SBC's make sense for the sheer volume of sales I'm sure, especially compared to considerably lower popularity of the FE these days.....sorry! Still, the 429-460 pump makes little sense either as it seems many more of these engines appear in off-road racing, tractor pullers and boats, few of which would want or need a  more drag race-oriented electric pump that can easily be shut off during a 1/4 mile only run. Odd, indeed.

Thanks Rory, glad you like them.  I'm thinking I'd just be selling the adapters, because the CVR pumps are readily available through Summit, but if there is a lot of interest I may contact CVR and try to get a quantity discount so I could sell the pumps a little cheaper.  As far as the adapters, I'm thinking around $200 for the pair; believe it or not, there is over $60 in aluminum bar in two of those things, and there will be quite a bit of CNC time in each one.

I should elaborate a little bit on my conversations with Meziere, so that I don't mislead anybody on that.  When I called them I was talking about a 650-700 HP street car, and the reason they didn't think that their FE pump could keep up was freeway driving in hot weather.  The specific example they gave me was if I was going down the freeway at 3000 RPM, a high horsepower engine needs more waterflow than their 42 gpm pump can provide.  They said that their remote 55 gpm pump would be no problem in this situation, but the 42 gpm pump was marginal.  This is a lot different than a drag strip application, of course, where you don't have the sustained heat buildup that you have at constant highway speeds.  So it wouldn't surprise me if their 42 gpm pump for the FE would work fine at the track on a high horsepower engine. 

The other thing I don't understand though is why Meziere offers a 55 gpm pump for a 429-460, or a big block Chev, or a small block Chev for that matter, and not for the FE.  Go figure...

[BruceS]

Jay, will your new adapters fit a 42 gpm CVR pump in case we don't need the "big kahuna" 55 gpm model?  I personally like the idea that your adapters will have the accessory mounting bosses.

[jayb]

As far as I know CVR doesn't make a 42 gpm pump; that is Meziere's size.  CVR only makes the 55 gpm pump in the universal style.

[fe66comet]

Don't mind my being dumb here but wouldn't a oil cooler help keep temps down?

[fe66comet]

Do you have any definite plans of selling them cause I shire want a set after noticing the 42 gph will not be enough to support my engine plans.

[jayb]

Sure, an oil cooler will help keep the engine temperatures down, but I'm not sure if it would solve a significant overheating problem.  I do plan on selling those adapters as soon as I have the machining operations finalized.  I'll put them up for sale in the classifieds here when they are ready.

[fe66comet]

I'm ready when you are, I hate to invest a pump that is inadequate as I want to run mine on road race and street. And do not want to destroy my new engine.

[jayb]

I'm working on the left side adapter today for the CVR water pump, and I'm in need of some help from you guys.  I don't have any of the brackets here for the accessories used on the left (passenger) side of the engine.  Has anybody got photos of a power steering pump setup on an FE car that mounts off the water pump on the left side?  I think I remember what those brackets look like, but I'm not 100% sure, and I don't want to build this adapter so that it interferes with the bracket.  That would kind of defeat the whole purpose of this exercise LOL!

Any photos of FE engines with left side accessories installed are appreciated.  Thanks, Jay