FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: Blueoval77 on March 28, 2022, 01:57:53 PM
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Its more like a adult Rubics cube....
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It is fun. You'll get used to the pain. ;).......Jim Kramer
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I can sympathize. One thing I will say that I learned many years ago from a friend who owned a body shop/repairables business, and who helped me with my FE Mustang when I first got it - he taught me that these cars ( and other brands too ) will suffer from the shock towers sagging inward with age, even on rust free cars. A lot of times the issues people have with header bolts to shock tower clearance, that can be part of the issue. We had some other front end sheet metal work to do on my car from accident damage, but at the time he also put my car on the Kansas Jack frame device, and pulled the shock towers out considerably to get them back into spec. Using the combination of an original Ford heavy gauge export brace, and a Monte Carlo bar, seems to have stabilized the issue, and it hasn’t changed since. There are frame and engine compartment dimensions, diagrams, and reference points, in the Ford Shop Manuals. I would advise anyone to check those dimensions when they get a chance, sometimes it will explain the issue.
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I recall helping a good friend take out a 289 and replace it with a 428 SCJ (capscrew rod motor with hatchet crankshaft spacer) 406 3X2 intake and Crane
CC290 camshaft (256@ 0.050: 0.601" lift) and toploader 4 speed. Many, many swear words used while installing motor and Hooker headers! I almost broke my toe when kicking a 45 gallon drum in frustration.
Fun times indeed!!
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Feel ya
But no towers helps a bunch.
(https://i.postimg.cc/26d5L2Kf/14-CF12-AD-BBD7-44-D2-BC1-F-4-C11-E4-F270-AB.jpg)
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Yeah this isnt my first rodeo with this old girl . I had a four speed S code in the 80s then this CJ was in a coupe I had with dougs headers on it Then in this R code prior to my blowing it apart in the late 90s and life happening in the form of an incident with a tow truck and compound fractures and wheel chairs for some years then life just kinda went in another direction so this old war horse just sat sleeping for many years.
So I was 27 the last time I tangled with big tubes and shock towers and cramps in yours hands and wishing that you had more joints in your fingers and arms... The wrenches I had heated and bent are long gone today as well. Doing this at 55 lets say is a bit harder....
I will say this. I had it in the back of my mind when I was building this set of headers but right now there is no doubt in my mind that I will modify this system so that it all goes together before it goes in the car. The car of course would be void of steering components and cross member . So pretty much whatever happens its all made to come out easy as one and go back the same way...Engine , trans , headers . all of it.
It seems like a bunch of work but there is no doubt you can do a better job of it and do it much faster...
I segmented the front tubes for this reason so I would simply need to modify the back 4 so they drop off easy , just leaving the short stubs going up to the flanges.
I am proud to say that I have all the bolts in the header flanges on both sides accept for one bolt each on the rear tubes...
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Marc thats cheating
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Marc, that thing is clean.
Nice!
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Yeah this isnt my first rodeo with this old girl . I had a four speed S code in the 80s then this CJ was in a coupe I had with dougs headers on it Then in this R code prior to my blowing it apart in the late 90s and life happening in the form of an incident with a tow truck and compound fractures and wheel chairs for some years then life just kinda went in another direction so this old war horse just sat sleeping for many years.
So I was 27 the last time I tangled with big tubes and shock towers and cramps in yours hands and wishing that you had more joints in your fingers and arms... The wrenches I had heated and bent are long gone today as well. Doing this at 55 lets say is a bit harder....
I will say this. I had it in the back of my mind when I was building this set of headers but right now there is no doubt in my mind that I will modify this system so that it all goes together before it goes in the car. The car of course would be void of steering components and cross member . So pretty much whatever happens its all made to come out easy as one and go back the same way...Engine , trans , headers . all of it.
It seems like a bunch of work but there is no doubt you can do a better job of it and do it much faster...
I segmented the front tubes for this reason so I would simply need to modify the back 4 so they drop off easy , just leaving the short stubs going up to the flanges.
I am proud to say that I have all the bolts in the header flanges on both sides accept for one bolt each on the rear tubes...
If this is a Mustang,Hooker 6114’s go in with the engine and trans. Cross member removed,steering dropped.
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Yeah another guy posted saying that part number I believe fit on his with the same steering box I am using. I didnt want the small tubes however . These are 2" with merge collectors .
And yes . Marc is a cheater....
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I saw where one of the brake companies has a brake pedal/master cylinder combo that mounts under the dash, think maybe it was wilwood
found a link
https://www.fabquest.com/wilwood-under-dash-super-pedal-dual-mc-brake-pedal-assembly-forged.html
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Had a 68 Mustang GT with a 427 TP, 4sp & 4,88 Detroit locker years ago. When the front end came off the ground and would run a 10.80 it made all the aggravation worthwhile.
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I can sympathize. One thing I will say that I learned many years ago from a friend who owned a body shop/repairables business, and who helped me with my FE Mustang when I first got it - he taught me that these cars ( and other brands too ) will suffer from the shock towers sagging inward with age, even on rust free cars. A lot of times the issues people have with header bolts to shock tower clearance, that can be part of the issue. We had some other front end sheet metal work to do on my car from accident damage, but at the time he also put my car on the Kansas Jack frame device, and pulled the shock towers out considerably to get them back into spec. Using the combination of an original Ford heavy gauge export brace, and a Monte Carlo bar, seems to have stabilized the issue, and it hasn’t changed since. There are frame and engine compartment dimensions, diagrams, and reference points, in the Ford Shop Manuals. I would advise anyone to check those dimensions when they get a chance, sometimes it will explain the issue.
Yeah Kevin , the coupe I ran this CJ in for some years had been all kinds of abused before I got it and I had to deal with that in the shock towers . I eventually cut them later down the road as the car was nothing special and I was young and didnt really care.. This 70 is the real deal R code so it has these friggin straps on the towers which make things all the more tight It doesnt help that the straps dont even fit tight against the towers so they take up about double the room they need to.
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And yes . Marc is a cheater....
Yes, yes I am :)
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Lot of cheating in turbohunter’s pic…port fuel injection and I’m guessing a hydraulic clutch…I’m jealous.
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is a mustang any harder to work on than my comets and fairlanes,i have never had or worked on a fe mustang.
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An FE Mustang is a PITA to work on......everything under the hood anyway, lots of specialized parts. I've had mine since 1982......lots of good times and memories, maybe some new cuss words to boot.....
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This 70 is the real deal R code so it has these friggin straps on the towers which make things all the more tight It doesnt help that the straps dont even fit tight against the towers so they take up about double the room they need to.
When I built my R-code with a 427 and MR heads, I anticipated the tower brace issue. Mine stuck out a good 1/4", at least. I took a hard piece of 4x4 oak, then a rosebud torch tip and heated the braces up in the areas that needed pushed back. Some good hits with a handheld sledgehammer and that flattened them back against the towers. When I was done, you couldn't tell that anything special had been done. It gained me enough clearance that there was actually space between the braces and header bolts. The engine still "pecked" at the tower at idle, which was really annoying, so I made an engine strap that went down to the sway bar mount on the frame. That took care of that issue.
Not saying it cures all your problems, but any clearance gained in that area is a big help. Only issue is when the car is already painted. I did mine when it was still on the rotisserie.
I guess looking at the picture now, you can tell that the braces are somewhat flattened.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9Q94LBsx/IMAG0689.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/KjDpBdmH/IMAG3069.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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If it was drop in/bolt up easy we'd all be driving big block Mustangs. ;D ;D ;D ;D I'd label what I see as "part of the fun stuff"
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Yeah Doug , I was dreaming up some sort of small nylon bushed rod ends to do something similar . I think that would do wonders for the whole situation.. This engine going in there now is really just a temporary deal to get the whole combination worked out so I will get another chance at doing some small modifications when it comes out and before the big one goes in. Im glad you posted that pic , I was convinced that these mounts set the engine a tad lower. Unless of course you have the same adjustable mounts on that one....
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When I put my first 427 in my 69 in 1977, young and dumb and had no idea of the real purpose of those shock tower braces, just wow the Shelbys have the Monte Carlo braces that made them magically handle better. So when I put it in, it had an Edelbrock cross ram, so I just left the braces off, and since I was using low riser heads with just the verticle bolts, soon realized that some of the lower bolts were easier from underneath. Has a ball taking the Chebbrainwashed for rides and incinerating tires, so punished it a bit. Had no idea why it was much more difficult getting the header bolts back out later- some could not be removed all the way, tight to the towers. Yeah, the dimensions in the Shop Manual are a big help in fixing past stoopidity lol...
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Im glad you posted that pic , I was convinced that these mounts set the engine a tad lower. Unless of course you have the same adjustable mounts on that one....
No, those are factory style mounts. I do have a set of the captured poly mounts that I'll be putting in with the new engine, along with the reinforced, heavy duty lower crossmember for improved rigidity. Hopefully those new mounts do not lower the engine. I've got a pretty good reference spot on the tower to let me know if anything has changed (in other words, peck marks on the tower braces...lol). I've done pretty much the same thing as you; starting out mildly stock/modified, ramping it up as I've gone, with bigger changes coming soon.
You can shim the engine up a little, by elongating certain holes and using spacers or washers. The only drawback to that is the already tight clearance to the hood, and changing driveline angle, both of which can be addressed if you're anticipating the issue.
And you show the precise reason why I don't like pentroof style covers in a Mustang. They just take up way too much valuable space and cause interference issues. Not to mention they make getting your hand in certain places pretty much impossible.