Starting to understand why building engines may be best left to the professional

[scott foxwell]

Brent - sorry for being unclear. I can't tell if it is tight in the bore, but when we dropped them in they moved easily - I don't imagine that has changed. What I meant is tight to the rocker. You and a few others here have schooled me on just taking out the up and down movement, and not to pay attention to how easily they rotate. I have 3 pushrods with absolutely NO up and down movement with the adjustment fully backed off.

I did buy a cheap borescope and checked that the pushrods are centered on the lifters. When fully backed off all three that are tight to the rocker will rotate easily but after the smallest turn down the pushrods no longer rotate at all. These three pushrods have no up and down movement, and when I try to rock the rocker with the allen key while the screws are fully backed out, they don't move at all. All the others show at least a tiny bit of up and down movement free of the lifter, and 1/16 turn removes it. A couple took 1/4 to just more than 1/4 to take out the free movement, but the lifters are easy to compress with a finger on the rocker even after the full adjustment.

At this point the oil has been draining out of the heads for a couple of weeks. When I get it hot I'll pull a rocker and check how they feel hot and with oil in the lifters.

Something not right.
Make sure lifter is on base circle...zero lift. Easiest way to do this is the EOIC method. Watch the lifter if you can. When the exhaust valve starts to open, adjust the intake. Back the adjuster all the way off and start from scratch. Sounds like you have good info on how to tell when there is zero lash. The "spin" method can be very misleading. Tighten the adjuster slowly till there is zero lash. Move the rocker up and down while you're tightening but use a light touch with your fingertips because an empty lifter can be easily compressed. You want to keep wiggling up and down gently till all the lash is gone. When you reach zero lash, give it whatever preload you've decided on. I'd recommend 3/4 turn. when done, rotate the crankshaft 90*, move to the next cylinder in the firing order watching the lifter if you can. When the ex starts to open, stop turning the crank and repeat. When done, rotate the crank another 90* to the next cylinder in the firing order, and so on. When you get back to no. 1, rotate the engine till the intake valve starts to close, or when the lifter goes over the nose of the cam and starts back down. Usually about half way. Now you can adjust the exhaust lifter preload. Same thing...when done with no. 1, rotate the crank 90* to the next cylinder in the firing order and repeat. When you're done, all the adjusters should be in the same place, same amount of threads exposed, everything uniform. Some lifters may still have oil in them and feel "harder" than others when setting the preload. That's normal. They have oil in them and will bleed down. Take your time.

Edited to add; if you can't watch the lifter, watch the pushrod. Go to where you find max lift on no 1. intake. It won't matter if the lifter is collapsed or not. Max lift will be at the same point. Stop there. Now rotate the engine 360*, one full turn. That lifter is now on the base circle of teh cam and you can set the preload. When done, rotate the engine 90* to the next cylinder in the firing order and set the preload. Repeat through the firing order. When you get back to no. 1, do the same thing with the ex valve. Find max lift, rotate one full turn, adjust preload, rotate 90* and repeat through the firing order.

[Yellow Truck]

I'm pretty sure about being on the base circle. I adjust the exhaust when the intake is closing, and the intake when the exhaust is opening, and I have very long arms so I can see the rocker and pushrod easily. The differences are too significant for a slight error in where the cam starts to ramp, it would have to be a really gross error to make up the difference I'm seeing.

BTW I tend to do one cylinder at a time rather than chase the intakes then the exhausts, but I don't think that part matters.

In an earlier post (might have been on another thread I started) I described the same issue, seems to be with the same lifters but I didn't take notes at the time. That time because I was so confounded by the issue I pulled the rocker assemblies and the pushrods and checked to make sure all the pushrods were straight - they were and the witness marks on them were inconsequential.

ScotiaFE (Howie doesn't seem to have been around in a while, hope he is okay) suggested some early bad behaviour sounded like hanging valves, and I think he was right. I changed how I did it from the T&D instructions to the ones Brent provided, and I had some issues with looseness (manifested by loud ticking in the valve train), so I did them again and reported the same lack of free movement at the time.

I really don't want to pull out a lifter but Barry R tells me it can be done with the intake in position.

[My427stang]

Paul,

If you have the cam on the base circle, which you have described properly, and the pushrod does not come loose even with the adjuster backed all the way out, then your pushrods are too long. 

A lifter cannot be bad and get longer, like you are describing, all it would do is get shorter if a plunger stuck down.  Are you running ball/ball pushrods with T&Ds or ball/cup with something else?

Also, are all the adjusters in about the same place when you adjust?  Shouldn't be a noticeable difference between one and the next

[Yellow Truck]

Ross,

All the pushrods are the same length. Ordered them from Smith Brothers, and checked them several times, the last time when I wanted to make sure they weren't bent or something stupid.

I checked my notes. It is worth noting that one of the very tight lifters is E1 - and I checked it for open/close at 0.050 and for peak lift and it conformed to the cam card, so it is moving the right amount. The number behind the valve identification is the amount of a full rotation I had to turn the adjusting screw to take out any free up/down movement:
E1-0, I1-1/16, E2-1/16, I2-1/16, I3-0, E3-1/4, I4-1/4, E4-0.
E5-5/16, I5-1/4, E6-1/16, I6-1/16, I7-1/4, E7-1/4, I8-1/4, E8-1/4.

Adjusters were all backed out to the max, and the differences on the screws above the lock nuts seem consistent. With respect to them being in the same place, on a couple I mentioned that the valve drops as I screw down the adjustment screw the recommended 1 full turn after the free movement is taken up.

EDIT - I said the adjusters are all backed out when in fact the are not backed out now. Corrected it to read were all backed out.

[My427stang]

Ross,

All the pushrods are the same length. Ordered them from Smith Brothers, and checked them several times, the last time when I wanted to make sure they weren't bent or something stupid.

I checked my notes. It is worth noting that one of the very tight lifters is E1 - and I checked it for open/close at 0.050 and for peak lift and it conformed to the cam card, so it is moving the right amount. The number behind the valve identification is the amount of a full rotation I had to turn the adjusting screw to take out any free up/down movement:
E1-0, I1-1/16, E2-1/16, I2-1/16, I3-0, E3-1/4, I4-1/4, E4-0.
E5-5/16, I5-1/4, E6-1/16, I6-1/16, I7-1/4, E7-1/4, I8-1/4, E8-1/4.

Adjusters were all backed out to the max, and the differences on the screws above the lock nuts seem consistent. With respect to them being in the same place, on a couple I mentioned that the valve drops as I screw down the adjustment screw the recommended 1 full turn after the free movement is taken up.

EDIT - I said the adjusters are all backed out when in fact the are not backed out now. Corrected it to read were all backed out.

I am still not following you.  Forget giving me symptoms for a second.  Are you saying that on any given rocker, when it is on the base circle of the cam, you cannot get free play?  That free play = zero with the rocker adjuster backed all the way out?

I don't care what the lifter is doing, my question is trying to figure what you are saying. Does every rocker have the ability to have free play when you back it off all the way?  If yes, go to zero, have less don't, they won't be the same likely, but will relax once the rocker goes through a cycle.

The only thing you should be thinking about is how to get to zero free play, then add a turn.  Valves can open temporarily when you do that, but they relax.

In the end though, if you cannot get any free play, when on the base circle, even backing off the rockers all the way, your pushrods were made too long

[blykins]

This thread has been going on for so long that I have forgotten what parts you have.

With T&D rockers, you can measure pushrod length with the adjuster all the way out.  T&D recommends running the adjuster one full turn down from all the way out and subsequently, that's how much preload you need.

So, given that you prob have some valve stem heights that are a hair off, thus giving you a hair of axial freeplay, I see nothing wrong with having zero freeplay on some rockers, just as long as the adjuster ends up one full turn from all the way out and you end up with the correct amount of preload.

[Yellow Truck]

Ross,

In the list I provided, the three valves with "0" for a value were the rockers that had zero free play. To be clear, on those valves I could rotate the pushrod, but it didn't have ANY free play, and further, those rockers could not compress the lifters at all. The pushrods were tight to the lifter and to the rocker, and lifter could not be compressed.

What I did was apply no adjustment to take out the free play, since there wasn't any, and one full turn down as per the instructions to provide pre-load to the lifter. In at least two of the three valves with zero adjustment to take out free play, the VAVLE moved down when I applied the one turn of pre-load, on all the other valves it was the LIFTER that moved down. I can't swear that I noticed on the E1, but I wasn't looking for it.

All the other valves had some free play that I took out, and all of them had some movement in the rocker once the adjustment to take out free play AND the preload adjustment was made. The three with zero free play adjustment also had absolutely NO movement in the lifter. The lifters are rock hard.

I mentioned this before either a dozen pages ago or on another thread, and was advised that some lifters can stay pumped with oil for a while. What I think I noticed this time, and one of the reasons for making notes, is I think it is the same lifters each time. Can't confirm it but intended to run it and pull the cover and check them again after I run it.

Is there a reason a new lifter will become essentially locked at full extension? I've never done this before so don't have any comparables.

[blykins]

It's ok if the valve goes down.

It will eventually come back up if you leave the engine in the same rotational position, as the spring pressure overcomes the lifter.

[Yellow Truck]

BBM heads prepared by Survival, Barry's Prison Break kit, T&D Edelbrock style rockers, and Morel hydraulic roller lifters with a Comp Cams cam and Ford Racing timing set. I think that is everything relevant.

I took the pushrod measurements from T&D's instructions, as you say, one full turn down from the seated position. The T&D instructions leave a lot to be desired, but they say "Seat the bottom of the adjuster screw up against the recess in the rocker arm and turn the adjuster screw on full turn down. This is the initial adjuster position." Later they say "The rocker arm should not be operated with adjuster screw more than one turn up or down from the initial adjuster position. Doing so can cut off the flow of oil to the rocker arm."

This doesn't make sense to me. If the initial adjuster position is one turn down from seated, then in effect, the rocker arm cannot be operated more than one turn up, because it as that point seated. In other words, it sort of sounds like they mean it CAN be operated from seated down as far as two turns down.

My concern is that I may be hanging a couple of valves because the lifters are just rock hard, and it seems to be the same ones. To confirm this I'll check it after I run it next, see if the same three rockers can't compress the lifters, and the others can.

[blykins]

I bet if you opened the valve on one of the hard lifters, and just left it there, it would collapse.

Yep, those are the correct instructions.  They just want you to position the adjuster in the middle of the travel.  Conveniently, if you measure for pushrods with the adjuster backed all the way out, it should give you correct preload with the adjuster in the sweet spot. 

Now, the kicker is that those rocker bodies have a little tolerance to them in how they are tapped, so the adjuster may not be in the 'exact' same spot on every rocker body when you back them all the way out. 

[Yellow Truck]

It ran with those rockers in that state, I'm not worried to start it, so I will, and with it warm I'll pull that cover and check it out.

I did pick up new oil and vacuum gauges and will install them (it is an aesthetics thing, I have a working oil gauge but I want them to match) so I can get better info. I'll probably get someone to ride with me to shoot some video of the tach/vacuum/AF info so I can post it.

[My427stang]

This thread has been going on for so long that I have forgotten what parts you have.

With T&D rockers, you can measure pushrod length with the adjuster all the way out.  T&D recommends running the adjuster one full turn down from all the way out and subsequently, that's how much preload you need.

So, given that you prob have some valve stem heights that are a hair off, thus giving you a hair of axial freeplay, I see nothing wrong with having zero freeplay on some rockers, just as long as the adjuster ends up one full turn from all the way out and you end up with the correct amount of preload.

Very good info, I haven't used the T&D.  Odd way to do it, but sounds like he has it right. 

[My427stang]

My concern is that I may be hanging a couple of valves because the lifters are just rock hard, and it seems to be the same ones. To confirm this I'll check it after I run it next, see if the same three rockers can't compress the lifters, and the others can.

We understand, but what Brent posted yesterday, and I will post again.

1 - The lifter feeling "rock hard" to you may be a problem, but likely isn't.  Once they fill with oil, the plunger often doesn't move the way you want it to.  It could be a damaged plunger, but it probably isn't (because of the next thing I say)

2 - If the lifter plunger was stuck, you would go to zero freeplay, then add one turn, the valve would open.  (You said that is happening) however if it stayed that way, you would have a a dead skip, popping out of the exhaust or intake depending on the valve that was hung, or you would have backfiring.  In the very least, on an intake valve you'd have a shaky vacuum reading.  I do not believe you are seeing that, so what I think is you are seeing standard oddball behavior of hydraulic lifters

3 -The key is yet again, for now, don't sweat that if you didn't have any compression problems.  Zero freeplay, then add one turn, if all the adjusters are close, and you don't have any of the issues in line 2 above, then the plunger is working.

[Yellow Truck]

Thanks guys. Will wait for Saturday morning to fire it. Cold, rain, and a bit of snow today, plus I look after my brother on Friday's.

[Yellow Truck]

Well at first it wouldn't start and I had no oil pressure while cranking (only about 10 seconds). So I got a little panicky and decided to confirm that a) the oil driveshaft was actually in position, b) the ignition timing was actually set on the combustion stroke.

Took off the rocker, pulled the distributor, and spun the drive shaft with a drill to prime the system (and dumped a bunch of oil down the side since the rocker cover was off and this thing really oils the heads, so smokey mess later). The ignition was in fact 360 crank degrees off, so fixed that, and got the timing sort of in the zone to start it.

It was now fairly late, but I fired it and was running around 30 degrees advanced, so brought it back to 18-20 and let it warm up and burn off the oil. It idled about were it had been, and vacuum was still around 8 inches, video below (I don't know if that is "jumping around" or normal). I brought it up to temp and took it for a short run. WOT at around 2,000 rpm seems about the same in third, with a lot of rattle and a bit of bog. Seems to run about the same, but I'm not discounting the fact that the carb is a major issue interfering with the improvements from changing the cam timing.

I'll start her again in the morning after I've put the new gauges on it and get some AF and vacuum data while driving. It ran on at shut down as it has been, no change there. I'll also play with the ignition timing and see if advancing it further improves the vacuum and idle, tonight I wanted to check for leaks, and I had one on a rad hose.

All in all I feel pretty good I didn't blow it up. Although because I had to go back and take off the rocker cover, I had to disconnect the fuel line from my filter to the regulator, and I forgot to connect it, so on my first attempt to start it after fixing the ignition timing I heard it cough, but I also heard fluid hitting the ground and remembered the open outlet from the fuel filter. Oops. I keep a 20 lbs fire extinguisher handy when I do a start after messing with it, for good reason.
IMG_3429 by Fred Snoyd, on Flickr