Starting to understand why building engines may be best left to the professional

[Heo]

The springs that's betwen the rockers

[Yellow Truck]

Heo - no springs on the T&D rockers.

Ross, the check springs from Comp are about $4, easier than looking around. Just want to avoid buying a size that won't work. I did read the instructions the first time - checking at 15, 10, 5, TDC, and -5, -10.

I have a pressure tester, need to see what it will take to adapt that hose to my air compressor. May need a fitting.

My plan for now is to assume the valves will clear and put the timing cover and oil pan on today and wait for the rains to pass before I install the rocker to test clearance on #1. I will test it before firing. Worst case I have to throw away some gaskets, but in the mean time the engine will stay clean and dry.

[comet2]

heo meant the rocker shaft springs from stock rockers  i found suitable pair at sears hardware an old time hardware store usually has a good selection of springs home depot lowes not so much!
 

[My427stang]

Heo - no springs on the T&D rockers.

Ross, the check springs from Comp are about $4, easier than looking around. Just want to avoid buying a size that won't work. I did read the instructions the first time - checking at 15, 10, 5, TDC, and -5, -10.

I have a pressure tester, need to see what it will take to adapt that hose to my air compressor. May need a fitting.

My plan for now is to assume the valves will clear and put the timing cover and oil pan on today and wait for the rains to pass before I install the rocker to test clearance on #1. I will test it before firing. Worst case I have to throw away some gaskets, but in the mean time the engine will stay clean and dry.

Just to reiterate, you do NOT install a rocker to check clearance.  If you do, you run the risk of compressing the lifter and getting a bad reading, not to mention parts hitting if it's wrong

1 - No rockers, bring the engine to 15 BTDC
2 - Measure height of valve retainer to head
3 - Push valve down until it hits piston and hold, measure vale retainer to head
4 - Subtract the two amounts (example #2 measures 1.90 minus #3 measurement 1.20 =.700   
5 - Subtract valve lift from that .700 - .540 = .160 write it down
6 - Repeat at 10 BTDC, 5 BTDC, O, etc until it starts getting bigger, bring numbers here

I would do it with the degree wheel still hooked up, setup will take longer than the measuring

[Yellow Truck]

Thanks for catching that, Ross. I would have eventually noticed that either a) I couldn't remove the spring with the rocker in place, or b) with the spring missing the rocker wasn't going to do anything.

Comet2 - I knew what he meant, I meant I don't have any of those. Gave all my spares to a buddy who does junkyard builds.

I got it sealed up before the rain hits. Man do we need it. Those folks in Texas and Florida are getting all of it and we are getting none. Prairie and foothills are on fire and the smell of grass and wood smoke is overpowering. I'll let it sit a few days before I touch it again, will give me time to scrounge up the tools and a spring.

[smokin427]

Does anyone know of a valve spring tester for an FE that you do not have to remove the springs to test, just the rocker shafts. I have 700 lb springs for my solid roller cam in my 427 Falcon and I drive it a lot on the street so I need to check the springs. I have Isky EZ Roll bushing lifters so I am not worried about them.

[scott foxwell]

Heo - no springs on the T&D rockers.

Ross, the check springs from Comp are about $4, easier than looking around. Just want to avoid buying a size that won't work. I did read the instructions the first time - checking at 15, 10, 5, TDC, and -5, -10.

I have a pressure tester, need to see what it will take to adapt that hose to my air compressor. May need a fitting.

My plan for now is to assume the valves will clear and put the timing cover and oil pan on today and wait for the rains to pass before I install the rocker to test clearance on #1. I will test it before firing. Worst case I have to throw away some gaskets, but in the mean time the engine will stay clean and dry.

Just to reiterate, you do NOT install a rocker to check clearance.  If you do, you run the risk of compressing the lifter and getting a bad reading, not to mention parts hitting if it's wrong

1 - No rockers, bring the engine to 15 BTDC
2 - Measure height of valve retainer to head
3 - Push valve down until it hits piston and hold, measure vale retainer to head
4 - Subtract the two amounts (example #2 measures 1.90 minus #3 measurement 1.20 =.700   
5 - Subtract valve lift from that .700 - .540 = .160 write it down
6 - Repeat at 10 BTDC, 5 BTDC, O, etc until it starts getting bigger, bring numbers here

I would do it with the degree wheel still hooked up, setup will take longer than the measuring

How does that work when there's no where near that much lift at any of those points, and the lift is changing as the valve is opening and closing?
IMO there is no way you can check valve to piston clearance without a rocker.
The only correct way to do this is with checking springs or a solid lifter. It doesn't matter if the lifter is the same height...all you need is the right length pushrod -IF- you're not willing to change springs. If you're going to run a light checking spring then a hyd lifter should be fine. Go through your lifters and check to find one that has oil in it and is "solid" (doesn't squish) and use that one just to make sure.
Honestly, I'm guessing you're way OK with vp clearance and you could just use the clay method to verify. This is getting WAY overcomplicated.

[scott foxwell]

I'm leaning towards doing the check, my reason is it really bothers me that my first measurements before taking it apart indicated the cam was behaving as per the cam card, but when I pulled the gears to advance it and re-measured I had funny numbers until I stopped using the 5 inch extension on the dial and went to using the pushrod. Since that change all my measurements have been repeatable, but it worries me.

Are the checking springs specific to an FE? One other question - do you think this will do to get the springs and retainers off?

https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/wmr-w84001/overview/

Just a heads up on that compressor...it won't work with dual springs which I see you have. It'll compress the outer but not the inner. You can push down on the retainer by hand once the outer is compressed but it's a bit of a PITA. The one shown on ebay looks like a really nice tool.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Valve-Spring-Compressor-Ford-FE-390-427-428-Cobra-Jet-Mach-1-Shelby-/263193719838?hash=item3d4791741e:m:mTOEokGjjrI1HKVObBD73mA

[scott foxwell]

You can button it up and know that you're pretty stinkin close to the card or you can stick it on an a8 keyway and advance it a little more. 

Comet, "straight up" actually means that the ICL equals the LSA.  He isn't straight up right now, he's actually around 2 degrees advanced.  I'm only stating that because a lot of guys call putting the cam in the way it's ground "putting it in straight up" and although that term is thrown around a lot, it's technically incorrect.

"Straight up" to me always meant that the cam is in as the card says it should be.

[My427stang]

You can button it up and know that you're pretty stinkin close to the card or you can stick it on an a8 keyway and advance it a little more. 

Comet, "straight up" actually means that the ICL equals the LSA.  He isn't straight up right now, he's actually around 2 degrees advanced.  I'm only stating that because a lot of guys call putting the cam in the way it's ground "putting it in straight up" and although that term is thrown around a lot, it's technically incorrect.

"Straight up" to me always meant that the cam is in as the card says it should be.

The term comes from how the cam sits in the engine.  If you visualize a line splitting the LSA, the cam sits centered in the engine, or straight up.  LSA=ICL=ECL  Advanced or retarded leans that line and the lobes toward one direction or another.  Installed as designed is just that



Here is a better way to describe it from the web:

Cam Advance - the position of the midpoint between intake and exhaust lobes relative to TDC.  A cam with timing 25-65-65-25 has no advance and is said to be "straight up".  If the same cam is advanced 4 degrees, its timing becomes 29-61-69-21.  The intake and exhaust centerlines are now at 106 ATDC and 114 BTDC respectively.



So 112 LSA cam, installed straight up would have a 112 ECL and 112 ICL.   Although I agree that many people use the term incorrectly, and I found as many incorrect examples as correct ones when I did a search for the term just now,  there can only be one straight up once you visualize what it is saying. It has nothing to do with the advance the cam grinder builds into the cam, it's how the builder chooses to install it relative to the fixed LSA

[scott foxwell]

So who's to say who's right?
One way, the cam is ground "straight up" or not. The other way, the cam is installed "straight up", or not.

[blykins]

You can button it up and know that you're pretty stinkin close to the card or you can stick it on an a8 keyway and advance it a little more. 

Comet, "straight up" actually means that the ICL equals the LSA.  He isn't straight up right now, he's actually around 2 degrees advanced.  I'm only stating that because a lot of guys call putting the cam in the way it's ground "putting it in straight up" and although that term is thrown around a lot, it's technically incorrect.

"Straight up" to me always meant that the cam is in as the card says it should be.

The term comes from how the cam sits in the engine.  If you visualize a line splitting the LSA, the cam sits centered in the engine, or straight up.  LSA=ICL=ECL  Advanced or retarded leans that line and the lobes toward one direction or another.  Installed as designed is just that



Here is a better way to describe it from the web:

Cam Advance - the position of the midpoint between intake and exhaust lobes relative to TDC.  A cam with timing 25-65-65-25 has no advance and is said to be "straight up".  If the same cam is advanced 4 degrees, its timing becomes 29-61-69-21.  The intake and exhaust centerlines are now at 106 ATDC and 114 BTDC respectively.



So 112 LSA cam, installed straight up would have a 112 ECL and 112 ICL.   Although I agree that many people use the term incorrectly, and I found as many incorrect examples as correct ones when I did a search for the term just now,  there can only be one straight up once you visualize what it is saying. It has nothing to do with the advance the cam grinder builds into the cam, it's how the builder chooses to install it relative to the fixed LSA

That is correct. 

[My427stang]

So who's to say who's right?
One way, the cam is ground "straight up" or not. The other way, the cam is installed "straight up", or not.

Well, all I can say is what exactly is "straight" if you install it as ground?

No matter what you do to affect cam timing, offset bushings, different slots in the gear, the 2 dots are always "straight" on the cam gear, and any cam if installed with advance or retarded centerlines is leaning one way or another.  However, only one situation puts everything equidistant, symmetrical, etc, and that is when LSA=ICL=ECL

I wasn't there back in the early days of building, but my hunch is advance and retard, or early or late, were very clear terms, but "not late or early" or "not advanced or retarded" is a lot more words than "straight up"

[Yellow Truck]

I understood that. My only observation is that for someone not familiar with the process you might try to measure the two centre lines and use them to position the cam.

[scott foxwell]

I understood that. My only observation is that for someone not familiar with the process you might try to measure the two centre lines and use them to position the cam.

You only need to measure one. The intake event is really the most critical so that's the one to measure. You can't change the lobe centers when they're both on the same cam. On engines with separate intake and ex cams, you can change the lobe centers.