POP Rocker stands

[galaxiex]

Just my opinion but, if you want the 3x2, I'd do a couple things

1 - Work on the top side, consider the roof of the plenum and port entry to be the short side radius of that first turn.  As much of a nice tailored curve as you can will help, any sharp edge anywhere in the plenum will try to pull fuel out of suspension too

2 - Make some spacers, and not sure how the 3x2 works, never used a Ford one, but you could consider something sorta tall if it fits, and open, to give it a little more plenum volume.  A big inch motor likes a decent size plenum to soften pulses, and the more you can give it the better.  Also, if not trying to keep it stock, the spacers may let you be more bold on the top side of the intake. 

3 - If there are bigger carb options, by all means do it.  Again, I don't know my 3x2s but almost as a rule, more carb the better, especially if you have #1 and #2 done

That being said, my feeling is that it will be down compared to the RPM, and even less effort on the RPM would bring that intake to the next level, but multiple carbs are cool to look at

Thanks!

1. Some work on the top side already done, but based on this I'll work on it some more.
Mentioned this before, but the throttle bores in the manifold are hogged out to 45mm from carb base all the way in to the runners.
Done at my work place on the milling machine.

2. Have 1 inch spacers already, mainly to raise the carbs/throttle bodies so the bottom of the huge oval air cleaner will clear the large cap Duraspark.
These spacers are also bored out to 45mm. They do add to plenum volume somewhat.

3. I have repro original style Holley carbs, and the FITech 3X2 throttle body injection setup. FiTech bores are 45mm.
The Holleys are much smaller. Holley setup rated at approx 725 CFM total.

FI setup is 500 CFM per body, so 1500 CFM potential.

[galaxiex]

HP is not what kills rods is RPM. Longer the stroke and weight hanging off the rod is what matters.  Stock 428 cj with factory rev limiter was what 5,800 rpm? 

Doubt your going turn it more than 6,500 rpm and you probably not making power up there anyways.

As I ask everyone what are your goals? What is needed to meet them?  Shift at 5,500 rpm and is all a non-issue. 

Just bought a 427 SO off a friend a few days ago. He is an old SS racer. He said you know I had a 390 used to race. Made 580hp at 7,500 rpm and had stock rods. Never broke it. 

Just JMHO but sounds like a street cruiser and your getting hung up on a HP number. If you really interested in making the car faster you have to look at the power range not peak hp. As to the rod to me is a non-issue, but whatever makes you happy.

Thanks!

Yes, it will likely never see the high side of 6500, probably limit it to 6000.

Goals are a sorta well mannered but reasonably quick street cruiser.
Brent did tell me this cam will have a noticeable idle.


I'd love it if I could get this big barge of a Galaxie into the 12's.
Be cool if it would do that with the A/C on.  It's not gonna be a race car, but I will go to the 1/4 once in a while.

I'm not hung up on any particular HP number. If it will run even high 12's I'll be happy.
Actually if I'm hung up on a number, its how much torque will it make.
My thinking (for a street car) is that torque is what moves the car.
HP is just a number calculated from torque.
Big torque and throttle response is what excites me.


Interesting about that 427 SO and stock rods.


I'm not rich, but I do have a fairly generous budget for this project.

[galaxiex]

I'm probably in the minority, but if you have a competent shop that you trust, put that thing together with them factory rods and crank and get rolling. There is probably far more FE's out there on the street with factory rods and crack than there is aftermarket. I just don't see this application needing a $1k set of rods.

Yep, I get that.

I'm gonna mull it over for a while.

I do trust Brents advice tho, he has the build and dyno experience,and might have a good idea on how much power this would make,
since he supplied the custom Hyd roller.

Maybe Brent could weigh in on a guesstimate range of what my combo would make? 

If it had another intake on it, I'd say it would make 520-525 hp.  Your intake is the variable and I just don't see it performing well, I could be wrong. 

The issue with the rods is that not only have they been subject to fatigue stress, but factory rods can deform the big end with loading because the strength just isn't there, like a modern rod.  I know this doesn't apply to you, but "back in the day", builders would hone the big ends out of round so that they wouldn't pinch a bearing under load.   If your shop is comfortable with it, knows how to prep them, and knows how to setup the rod bearing clearances correctly, you could potentially take the chance on them.  Remember, these rods were mainly designed for 250-300 hp applications with 4000-4500 rpm operating constraints.  I know that guys obviously subjected them to a lot more than that and still do, but just remember that the instant you hit the key, everything in the bottom end of an engine is trying to get out. 

Thanks Brent!

The stock rods are as prepped as much as they are gonna be.
I won't sink any more money into them.

I do understand about cycle and fatigue stress on rods, which is why I ordered the (now cancelled) Molnar rods.
I can wait for them to come back into stock/production, unless you happen to have a set? 

[galaxiex]

Here's a thread from Barry R. on the 3X2 making decent power with a limitation of poor carbs. 706 CFM.


https://www.fordfe.com/dyno-days-one-of-many-tri-power-the-hard-way-t91027.html


I'm certainly NOT in the same league as JDC when it comes to porting, but I did take some cues from him in that thread.

[frnkeore]

Since your manifold bores, are already 45mm, don't forget about the 500 cfm Holley 2v carb. They are almost 43mm throttle bores and don't forget that the cfm rating of 2v carbs, is 1.41 more than a 4v. The 2v are rated for 3 hg, as opposed to 4v @ 1,5 hg.

If you swap out the bowls on the 4412 (500 cfm) Holley's that would get 1500 2v cfm or 1070 4v cfm. You'd have to hook up a vacuum gauge and run at WOT to see of the manifold might be a restriction to the carbs but, that's part of the fun.

[galaxiex]

Sine your manifold bores, are already 45mm, don't forget about the 500 cfm Holley 2v arb. They are almost 43mm throttle bores and don't forget that the cfm rating of 2v carbs, is 1.41 more than a 4v. The 2v are rated for 3 hg, as opposed to 4v @ 1,5 hg.

If you swap out the bowls on the 4412 (500 cfm) Holley's that would get 1500 2v cfm or 1070 4v cfm. You'd have to hook up a vacuum gauge and run at WOT to see of the manifold might be a restriction to the carbs but, that's part of the fun.

Thanks!

I'm aware of the hg rating differences for 2bbl and 4bbl.

The stock Ford 2bbl's are rated at 320 center and 350 X 2 for the outboard carbs.

So 1020 CFM at the 2 bbl rating = 721 CFM at the 4bbl rating.

The FITech 3X2 says they can support up to 600 HP and each throttle body is 500 CFM.
I'm not sure which flow rating they are using, but I "assume" it's the 4bbl at 1.5hg.

[frnkeore]

So 1020 CFM at the 2 bbl rating = 721 CFM at the 4bbl rating.

Yes.

I would check with the mfg of the FI 500's to see if they're rated at 1.5 hg. The Holley 6425, 650 cfm 2v, with it's 44.45 throttles, would be 470 cfm so, it certainly could be rated at 1.5.

A quick and cheaper option, would be to replace only the center, with a 4412, giving 1200 @ 3hg or 849 @ 1.5hg. Good reason for that option, is that the center carb, is in the middle of 4 runners, while the end carbs are closest to just 2 runners.

[My427stang]

Given the spacers, some careful rubbing and the FITech TBs, I'd go for it.  It'll run.  Not sure I'd mess with any carb if I had the 3x2 EFI setup

Like some others, I am not a big fan of the stock rods if you are going to make some power.  They are pretty strong, unless they aren't, and it's hard to judge from the outside.  If they have new bolts, resized, and small end is good or rebushed, assuming a mag when it was done and a good balance, you will likely be fine. 

It's just sort of like cylinder heads nowadays, by the time you do all that, you have a relatively expensive but carefully checked 50 year old part, but you can't see it all.  Of course you can't see in a new part either, but it hasn't been trying to throw 2 1/2 lbs through the head for the better part of 50 years

Now, I have certainly used stock rods, the last 397 I did used resized, new bolts, and magged stockers, so I wouldn't lose sleep over it, but for anything making big power, I'd likely wait, or rebalance and use the strong but HEAVY SCAT pieces

[galaxiex]

Given the spacers, some careful rubbing and the FITech TBs, I'd go for it.  It'll run.  Not sure I'd mess with any carb if I had the 3x2 EFI setup

Like some others, I am not a big fan of the stock rods if you are going to make some power.  They are pretty strong, unless they aren't, and it's hard to judge from the outside.  If they have new bolts, resized, and small end is good or rebushed, assuming a mag when it was done and a good balance, you will likely be fine. 

It's just sort of like cylinder heads nowadays, by the time you do all that, you have a relatively expensive but carefully checked 50 year old part, but you can't see it all.  Of course you can't see in a new part either, but it hasn't been trying to throw 2 1/2 lbs through the head for the better part of 50 years

Now, I have certainly used stock rods, the last 397 I did used resized, new bolts, and magged stockers, so I wouldn't lose sleep over it, but for anything making big power, I'd likely wait, or rebalance and use the strong but HEAVY SCAT pieces

Well, I don't know if this qualifies as "big power" but I'd feel a lot better having the Molnar's in there.

I think I'll wait.
I've come this far, and this project has been on a very slow burn for quite a few years, so a little longer won't hurt.

The chassis is ready but the body still needs some attention.
The sheet metal welding etc is all done, but needs assembled, wiring and paint yet.

[My427stang]

SCAT makes a 6.49 H beam too, they are porky but strong and likely available

[galaxiex]

Scat rods not in stock at Summit.

[frnkeore]

While I liked the Tri Power, alot, when it first came out on the 390 & 406, I liked the 8v 427's much better so, I never had the urge to get one.

After talking about your 6v, I looked it up in Jay's intake book. It is really not a bad intake for strokers. It didn't do well on the 428 (down just a few tq/hp) but, it kinda shines on his 390 stroker eng. It came out almost dead even with the Holley Dominator and was close to the Edel Victor also, it was only behind 2 ft/lb and 2 hp on the Interceptor manifold.

Average TQ/HP, 3k - 6k rpm

Tri Power
468.1/398.7

Dominator
465.9/398.1

Victor
474.8/406.2

Interceptor
470.7/400.6

I was concerned that the internal volume, might not be large enough but, after looking those up, I think it's fine. Now I'd be very interested in what a 500 cfm, center carb might do for those numbers.

[blykins]

Scat rods not in stock at Summit.

I have 2 sets of Scat FE rods, but I would urge you to wait on the Molnars.  They are a better rod all the way around.

[67xr7cat]

Scat rods not in stock at Summit.

I have 2 sets of Scat FE rods, but I would urge you to wait on the Molnars.  They are a better rod all the way around.

And a Carrillo rod is a better all around rod then the Molnar.  Both the Molnar and the Carrillo are not needed.  You tell him his rods will likely fail and then say don't use a rod (scat) that in reality is plenty stronger for the application then what he will subject it to. If he turns it up in the future unless he goes power adder, the path will be a stoker in which case he will need a different rod anyway. 

Is sad guy has a perfectly good short block and now tear it all apart, delay everything and spend $900 in rods and rebalance.  Still has a 50 year old 428 crank which could break too.  Metal fatigue happens to cranks too and guys have them fail, some on here won't use them at all. Still has that heavy, outdated piston with tractor rings.

Then there is metal fatigue.  These stock rod debates been going on as long as all the cheap aftermarket rods have been around. In 1990 everyone used stock unless it was a big buck racer. Shops knew how to assess the condition of a connecting rod. I know as I was taught this back then.  There are rods that go 200,000, 300,000 miles and do not break. There are reasons and if you look at how a bolt has to be pre-tensioned you will start to understand the failure mode. The fatigue resistance of the FE forged rods is about 1/3 better than a powdered metal rod which most OEM's use in engines today and rod breakage is not an issue. In the old days the stock FE rods were considered one of the better rods, now you would think they are only fit for a trailer queen.

Most rod failures are caused by something other than the rod. If it was mine I'd run what you have.  If you are going to spend a bunch of money buy a stoker as said before. The benefits are many. After you sell off your current rotating assembly to someone not scared of it the money you will have into it will not be all that much more than what you will spend on a set of Molnar rods and a re-balance.

[67xr7cat]

One other thing I'd be more concerned with then the rods is what your CR is.  With that Speed-pro piston if you have a stock 10.170" deck it is .020" in the hole and your CR is 10.26 with the TFS heads and a .040" gasket. If the block has been cut and they are at zero deck then you are at 10.72 CR.  I'd rather be at 10:1 or a little less then pushing it. All it takes is get some bad gas and detonate the thing.