FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: DuckRyder on February 20, 2024, 07:45:44 AM
-
Bb/Fe Ford Roller Lifter problems to be aware of (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjK4ZSGGL24)
Interesting, I think we covered this before but a visual. Never heard of one of the lifter brands.
Anyhow.
Edit: OPPS wrong you tube
-
Never heard of those lifters. I wince when I see a mechanic use one of those abrasive wheels on or around an engine. Those things spit the abrasive media everywhere as a very fine grit.
-
Never heard of those lifters. I wince when I see a mechanic use one of those abrasive wheels on or around an engine. Those things spit the abrasive media everywhere as a very fine grit.
You could literally see crap being slung everywhere, not to mention the fine grit that you couldn't see. I stopped watching at that point. No way in he!! you would be able to get that stuff out. I wouldn't let that guy work on my grandsons bicycle.
-
OPPs - sorry wrong you tube.
Fixed link in first post.
-
I've seen this happen on extremely rare occasions when a factory block has a big, deep chamfer at the top of the lifter bore. I use mainly Morel lifters and just don't see many issues on a large sample size.
I really wish I could get everyone in the habit of priming the oil pump with the intake manifold off, just to see where the oil is going. 95% of issues would be caught, but lots of guys like to put the entire engine together, stick it in the car, then prime the pump.
-
Brent
I never thought of priming with the intake off. I was taught the other way but will try it on my new build in a couple of months.
Greg
-
Brent
I never thought of priming with the intake off. I was taught the other way but will try it on my new build in a couple of months.
Greg
You don't know how many issues I've caught over the years from priming with the intake off. Issues that would have required me to pull the intake completely off, ruin intake gaskets, etc. I also put the pushrods and rockers on so I can make sure I'm getting the correct amount of oil up top and I can check the amount of lifter preload I have while I'm doing that.
1. Check oil flow/amount of flow. Easy to adjust lifter restrictions, if used.
2. Verify lifter preload (mostly important with non-adjustable rocker arms).
3. Check lifter function (easy to grab a rocker arm and try to push the lifter down while/after priming). If you were to catch a bad one, it's really easy to swap it out.
-
Brent
A while back there were discussions on several forums as to Morel lifters ( turned into a brawl )
IIRC, the answer was the correct weight oil was not being used
Can you give some insight into your experience with Morel lifters ( hydraulic and solid )
I am selling my storage collection of stuff and concentrating on one mill this time
Ricky.
-
Brent
A while back there were discussions on several forums as to Morel lifters ( turned into a brawl )
IIRC, the answer was the correct weight oil was not being used
Can you give some insight into your experience with Morel lifters ( hydraulic and solid )
I am selling my storage collection of stuff and concentrating on one mill this time
Ricky.
Morel hydraulic lifters are setup with tighter operating clearances than most. They are pretty picky on oil viscosity.
Oil viscosities around 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30, etc. will usually be happy. I'm looking for my kinematic viscosity information that they work with, but haven't found it yet and I'm not confident enough to rely on memory.
I usually use a Valvoline VR1 10W30 or a Lucas 5W20.
-
You don't know how many issues I've caught over the years from priming with the intake off. Issues that would have required me to pull the intake completely off, ruin intake gaskets, etc. I also put the pushrods and rockers on so I can make sure I'm getting the correct amount of oil up top and I can check the amount of lifter preload I have while I'm doing that.
I just received some kind assistance from Brent on lifter oiling issues and wanted to say "same" - I never, ever put the intake on a motor until I have run a lot of prime through the engine and see oil everywhere it needs to go. Every set - so far - of Howards (Morel) solid rollers have required a "nick" between the oil passage relief and the oil feed hole to get oil up top to the rockers on my 351Cs. The lifters are nice and snug in the bores. I do a lot of rotations checking clearance, lifter motion, spring action, retainer to seal double check and such. How the engine rotates with all the spring load on the cam - no hang ups and such.
LOL - wish I had the link to the "wrong" video. To nick my lifters I use some diamond wheels for Dremel I found at Harbor Freight. They are only .020 thick. A regular fiberglass Dremel cutoff disk is about .047. I get the wheel spinning on high, line it up and just "touch" a quick hit.
-
LOL - wish I had the link to the "wrong" video. T
LOL
https://youtu.be/2B3DPykr2C0
Which was posted in response to a topic about a dealer shop using roloc disk on an oil pan repair.
-
In a mild street build with a pressure fed block, where is the line drawn between hydraulic roller and solid roller? I don’t mind the noise or the inconvenience of rocker adjustments. And then what is the opinions of roller bearing lifter or bushing roller?
-
In a mild street build with a pressure fed block, where is the line drawn between hydraulic roller and solid roller? I don’t mind the noise or the inconvenience of rocker adjustments. And then what is the opinions of roller bearing lifter or bushing roller?
It's all in the definition of a mild street build. If your mild street build is meant to turn past 6500-7000, then I'd use a solid roller.
Just know that a hydraulic roller lifter can last for a hundred thousand miles or more. A solid roller is exposed to extra spring loads and valve lash, which essentially pound the bearings/bushing over time and they will need to be rebuilt.
-
Can a hydraulic roller be reliable in the 6500-7000 range. ? Existing combo wants to run to 6500 with a flat tappet and want to duplicate that without fear of cam failure. I really don’t mind a solid flat tappet if it can be made reliable with today’s offerings
-
Brent has run several SFT cams in FE's.
Careful selection of cam and lifters as well as break in spring pressures checked.
Less than 300lbs open and ~ 100 lbs closed is a good start for SFT break-in.
-
Can a hydraulic roller be reliable in the 6500-7000 range. ? Existing combo wants to run to 6500 with a flat tappet and want to duplicate that without fear of cam failure. I really don’t mind a solid flat tappet if it can be made reliable with today’s offerings
Yes. I have many hydraulic roller engines out there in that rpm range.
Towd56, a member here, has one of my 390's with a hydraulic roller in his Galaxie wagon. Has made over 250 passes and has put 4000-5000 miles on it. Launches at around 5000 rpm, shifts at 7000. Factory non-adjustable rockers.
Solid flat tappets can certainly be reliable. Pretty easy with a good lifter, such as a Crower EDM lifter.
-
I am still mainly a solid, flat tappet guy, but my 347 SB Ford has Morel "Hi Rev" hydraulic roller lifters, and I drop the clutch at 6600, shift it as 7000 RPM, and hit 7200 at the finish line. So the right hydraulic lifters, and the correct valve train and oil will let them hit the higher RPM range. My Morel lifters came with instructions specifying what oil grades to be using, so I have been running 5-30 in my 347.They were quite addemant about not using thicker oils with these lifters.
-
LOL - wish I had the link to the "wrong" video. T
LOL
https://youtu.be/2B3DPykr2C0
Which was posted in response to a topic about a dealer shop using roloc disk on an oil pan repair.
!@#$#! Well - that's a fail!
-
One very interesting video he did was on flat tappet grinding. His findings made me rethink flat tappet problems. I would have posted the video but couldn't figure out how, hopefully the builders on here find it and give some feedback on their thoughts.
-
One very interesting video he did was on flat tappet grinding. His findings made me rethink flat tappet problems. I would have posted the video but couldn't figure out how, hopefully the builders on here find it and give some feedback on their thoughts.
The biggest flat tappet cam failure cause is valve spring loads. I'm not saying that there aren't other causes, but IMO, that's the biggest one. Cylinder head manufacturers sell all kinds of heads that are "for flat tappet cams" and the valve spring loads are stupidly high. Nobody needs 140 lbs seat for a hydraulic flat tappet.
Combining that with the fact that most guys working out of their garage don't check the spring loads, or even know that they need a LOT less than what they have for break-in. So instead of pulling the inner springs or swapping valve springs, they're bolting heads on and letting it eat.
-
I second the motion from the gentleman from KY.
Lots of build failures that blame cam and lifters when they are the effect you see, not the cause
-
He covered that he also went through Rockwell test on failed lobes and lifters he covered cam cores where they come from. I wouldn't argue with anyone on this site I am a mechanic not engine builder or machinist. I will say it's the closest to an answer I've seen for DIY mass KIT failures. The crown is so off center their is no way for the lifter to spin in my opinion.
-
The short travel Morel hydro rollers I got from Brent for my 482 help with making peak power @6500. Engine will go to 7100 before nosing over. The oil specs from Morel call for 5-30. VR-1 Racing oil doesn’t come in that weight so I have been using their 10-30 for several years.
-
He covered that he also went through Rockwell test on failed lobes and lifters he covered cam cores where they come from. I wouldn't argue with anyone on this site I am a mechanic not engine builder or machinist. I will say it's the closest to an answer I've seen for DIY mass KIT failures. The crown is so off center their is no way for the lifter to spin in my opinion.
I appreciate you sharing. My issue with his evaluation is that the crown is really only one area that affects rotation to allow burnishing of the cam and lifter contact points. The cam lobe is offset and has taper, which really is driving dynamic force for spinning, and although some crown may help that, I can't swallow that crown differences are the cause of what people report.
What I have seen in a wide variety of failures that have occurred with customers that went on their own, no particular order
1 - Poor prelube with the drippy red stuff or equiv
2 - Excessive turning without oil pressure
3 - Binding anywhere from lifter bore through valve guide
4 - Lifters sticking in bores at assembly
5 - Failure to prelube an engine, or prelubing with starter
6 - Spring pressures not checked or incorrect
7 - Bad start practices - timing off, carb not ready resulting in excessive crank, or immediate shut down after start
8 - Wrong oil
9 - Not following break in procedures
Now I can't argue with the guy finding lifter differences, in fact I applaud him for his time an research, but I haven't seen a single engine that didn't break in nicely and last a long time if each of the things above were addressed, and the ones that came in almost always had one or multiple issues above, so it's hard for me to blame the lifter.
That being said, having good quality parts is hard to argue with.
-
Agree with all your points Ross but one sticks out to me. Sticky lifter bores. Having done long ago a number of in-car cam swaps, we noticed that the removed lifters had deposits on the lower (cam side) ends. Taking out the lifters showed similar crud inside the bores, hard to remove even with determined cleaning. We noted that some of the new lifters had trouble spinning in the bores. We went back in with lacquer thinner, acetone and even gasoline until the lifters spun easily.
Yes, if they can't spin, the lobes will go flat in a hurry.
-
Agree with all your points Ross but one sticks out to me. Sticky lifter bores. Having done long ago a number of in-car cam swaps, we noticed that the removed lifters had deposits on the lower (cam side) ends. Taking out the lifters showed similar crud inside the bores, hard to remove even with determined cleaning. We noted that some of the new lifters had trouble spinning in the bores. We went back in with lacquer thinner, acetone and even gasoline until the lifters spun easily.
Yes, if they can't spin, the lobes will go flat in a hurry.
Amen, and so easy to diagnose, if they don't slide in nicely, stop LOL
-
...
Amen, and so easy to diagnose, if they don't slide in nicely, stop LOL
I would regard the disassembly to be the tell tale. If the lifters don't come out easily with just finger pressure, you know you have something you need to address. Certainly assembly is where attention to detail pays off and a lifter fit problem better be identified and fixed.
-
Lifters tending to swage in the block bores is not uncommon; this particularly with replacement lifters presenting a different external barrel shape (particularly the location and width of an oil belt-line or weight reduction relief band, and/or with camshaft lobes of different base circles and/or lobe lifts, all of which positions the lifters load surfaces on territory within the bores not as previously utilized. Therefore with engine block prep work we always lightly hone (no, not a "ball-hone", with a proper honing mandrel) the lifter bores to remove deposits, knock down steps and burs, and if only to make more visual, imperfections that might be concerning; then measure (generally not having removed more than a tenth or two at the most from the bores' original diameter), and I even keep test lifter examples that I can drop through the bores at the time of this work just as a quick fitment double check before completion. :)
Scott.
-
I just set up a set of solid rollers on an hydro roller cam, using Brent's recommendation of .005 lash hot. I should have the car at the strip in a couple of weeks and will let everyone know how it ran. Two things so far - 1) it's dang hard to work with a .005 piece of floppy steel and 2) when set it kinda has that "Singer Sewing Machine" sound to it LOL. Note - Hot vs cold lash on this iron/iron 351C is the same.
-
Note - Hot vs cold lash on this iron/iron 351C is the same.
That's the way it is on FE's too. I've never seen lash change between cold/hot on an iron/iron combo.
-
Note - Hot vs cold lash on this iron/iron 351C is the same.
That's the way it is on FE's too. I've never seen lash change between cold/hot on an iron/iron combo.
I have. But it's not a lot. Maybe .003-.004 max.
-
With iron block and heads, I have seen next to no change in valve lash, when using stock type iron adjustable rocker arms, but with aluminum roller rockers, I have seen a difference of .002".