Market Demand for a new version of the PSE-style intake adapter?

[jayb]

So I've been giving serious consideration to manufacturing an updated version of the old PSE style intake manifold.  For anyone who is not familiar with this piece, it is designed as a "lower" intake manifold, and includes the valve cover rail, thermostat housing, distributor mounting hole, and valley area of the intake.  It is drilled and tapped so that it will bolt to a wedge FE head with some countersunk allen head bolts, and then a 351C intake will bolt onto the top, to form the "upper" intake manifold.  Here are some photos, from my book, of an original PSE intake manifold base:





This setup offers several advantages.  For one thing, it has a removable center plate that can be accessed once the upper manifold has been removed.  The center plate allows access to the lifter valley for inspection of lifters, without removing the valve covers or distributor, or breaking the water jacket.  It also allows lifter replacement without removing the distributor or breaking the water jacket.  Another advantage is that the 351C intakes currently available have been developed to a pretty high state, so they are excellent manifolds for a strong performance engine.  This was fairly clear in my dyno testing for the book, where even an old Edelbrock Torker intake on the PSE base did very well on most of the engines.  Also, the upper manifold can easily be swapped, again without removing the distributor, valve covers, or breaking the water jacket, so you can bolt on a 351C tunnel ram in about 20 minutes if you are so inclined.

I'd also put a couple of twists on this idea, to make it more versatile than the original PSE style manifold.  To start with, I'd CNC all the ports to fit whatever intake design was going to be used.  I'd also offer a version with straight extensions of the standard FE ports, and also one with no porting at all, for anyone who wanted to use the manifold base as a starting point for their own sheet metal intake.  I would also make the intake available in a high riser or tunnel port version, with an optional machining program.   Finally, I would plan my own FE specific intake manifold as a future project, to hopefully offer the highest performance option, rather than using existing 351C intakes.

I've been getting pricing for the required pattern tooling, and casting quotes for the manifolds themselves, and have everything I need to get going on this.  When I got started I was hoping to be able to sell the manifolds for $295, but with the pricing I've been getting it will need to be $395 for me to be able to build 100 of these things and break even with all the tooling costs and so forth.  I don't know if the market will pay this or not; after all, after spending $395 on the manifold base you would still have to spend another $350-$500 for a 351C intake to go on top.  You can buy an FE Victor for around $550, which would end up being a lot cheaper.  I don't want to do this if I can't sell at least 100 manifolds.

So what do you guys think?

[afret]

That would be great.  I'd get at least a couple of them.

[GJCAT427]

Jay, just a thought, if a front cover could be designed that would`nt need to come off of the engine cam changes would be a breeze. This would complment the manifold. And yes I would be intrested in the manifold if you go into production either way.

[mmason]

I would buy one at that price.

[machoneman]

Great idea and write-up Jay. I had to vote only maybe since I've too heavily invested in SBF's and frankly, as your SOHC adventures have been so inspiring, I'd rather go that way than the traditional FE way.

Methinks though you biggest issue here is purely research marketing, kinda' like Web SEO, plus reach and depth.  Getting this same info into Ford sites like Club Cobra, Vintage Mustang Forum, and other mainstream websites would yield IMHO the go/no go answer you seek.

Perhaps......our fellow posters here can spread the word (copy your text and pics and post them, with your permission of course) to other Ford websites? This would be quickly done, I'm sure!   

[jayb]

Good idea, I had already planned to post a link on the FE Forum, but setting it up on Club Cobra makes a lot of sense...

[ScotiaFE]

If you can hold that price I'd bet you could sell a few hundred.
I looked around for a PSE a while back and the prices were not to realistic.
One guy wanted $5000 for a new never used. I declined.
A lot of what we do is just for eye candy and that is good looking candy.
Beats the hell out of the Victor.
You could put together the whole package for just over 1300 which is not that bad.
Right in line with what it costs to do most 2X4 setups these days.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CMB-03-0189/

[drdano]

I'd buy one.  Gladly pay $400 to not have to go through the nightmare of pulling the intake to swap lifters.  Also opens the door to throwing a tunnel ram in the trunk and at the strip swapping out the upper manifold for some additional fun.  How feasible would a version with an oil fill tube be?  Would there be enough room with the upper intake? 

[jayb]

How feasible would a version with an oil fill tube be?  Would there be enough room with the upper intake?

I think it would depend on the upper intake, but it is certainly possible.  I will have to think about that...

[Joe-jdc]

So how do we order 2 or more?  Definitely want 1.  Joe-JDC.

[66sevets]

I'll buy one! Steve

[Qikbbstang]

Jay personally I have serious doubts that there are 100 or so 351C Tunnel Rams laying around where increased demand would not skyrocket prices.  I'd bet if just 20 guys all went looking for 351C tunnel rams and they all needed them in three months they'd raise the heck out of prices and some would still be empty handed at the end of three months. Unlike StreetMaster's there weren't thousands made over nearly 20 years and the Cleveland was a short lived motor.  There's tons of dirt cheap NASCAR 351W intakes in numerous varried head configurations but they are varried for heads/ports and of course all are only 1-4V.
      I've been wondering why Dove Mfg produced so very few of their cast FE Tunnel Rams in light of it's great results in your book. Seems to me a Knock-Off of that intake or even getting the orig molds from Dove Mfg of their FE Tunnel Ram would be a better gamble for it to pay-off.

[Joe M]

I'm going to start hoarding 351C intakes!  Nice thing is you can still buy them new.  Hope the Summit Racing link works:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/WND-1994/?rtype=10
Figure $400 for the lower from Jay and $420 for this Weiand 1994.  Not too bad!

[jayb]

Jay personally I have serious doubts that there are 100 or so 351C Tunnel Rams laying around where increased demand would not skyrocket prices.

You can still buy them brand new, BB, in fact the one that I tested for my book was one I purchased brand new from Summit.  Pretty reasonably priced, too.

[blueoval67]

Great idea Jay. Would the Yates, CHI and, the other Australian high rise intakes be able to be used?

[faulkdaddy]

sign me up Jay . I would compare it to my sheetmetal intake when Iget the 486 built.
 Bruce Faulkner
SSG U.S. ARMY (RET)

[427Fastback]

I am in....one for sure.Possibly two...........Cory

[AlanCasida]

I would definitely want one also! 

[Qikbbstang]

Wow I'm eating crow big time, I obviously know FE intake pricing which with as through the decades because of weight/size and machining operation have stayed high and don't have a clue about other series motors intakes. The $400 + or - Cleve tunnel ram looks to be a bargain. I'm a Sgt Major dumbell on knowing if the CHI, Funnel Web, Yates-NASCAR bad-ass-sinister intakes could be adapted likewise to a FE?

[jayb]

Great idea Jay. Would the Yates, CHI and, the other Australian high rise intakes be able to be used?

Yes, the idea would be to have the ability to customize the ports and bolt pattern of each intake base to work with whatever 351C intake you wanted to use.

[MC3780]

I'm definitely in (and have a real and present need). 

Thank-you for your FE stewardship Jay!  You are very unselfish with your time and efforts.

>mike c.

[WConley]

Jay - It looks like your poll is a great tool for evaluating the risk of this venture.  Maybe touching base with a couple of bigger engine builders, like Keith Craft and Barry R., would give you another data point.

Cool idea.  I just hope a real business case can be made for it.  I wonder how many units Pro Stock Paul moved back in the day?

[plovett]

I would buy one.  Maybe not right when it's released, but I'd get one eventually if it was still available.  I don't have a specific need for one right now, buuuut it's so freakin' cool that I would find a way to use it eventually.

paulie

[coops427]

Jay, I think for any serious FE engine build that this would be the best option. It opens up so many possibilities. It would also make constructing a sheet metal intake a lot easier. I would be very interested in two of them. Garry- coops427

[e philpott]

I'm with Paulie , I would definetly buy one but it might be a year from now ..... tunnel wedge is also on my list of "must have's" and I have yet to run my med 2x4 yet , so I'm a little slow on getting stuff done , I need some trunk monkey's for neighbors , just don't have any

[Kerry j]

Another buyer here Jay. I don't have a project that needs it right now, but it's so cool, I would have to have one.

[jayb]

Thanks for all the responses, guys, it looks like the market demand is there.  My schedule is to have the design and CAD work done by the end of June, have castings sometime in August, and then have the first machined prototypes in the September-October time frame.  I will post updates when I hit some of the milestones along the way.

[ToddK]

Although it's not in the immediate plans for my high riser race engine, I think it would be a worthwhile adapter to have, so count me in. Especially if the ports can be matched to the BT HR ports.

[jayb]

Well, since I have a set of BT high risers myself, it kind of behooves me to make the manifold fit those heads 

[Mistral_427TP]

Jay
Not in my immediate plan, but I would be in interested buying 1 for my TP.
Ken

[Heo]

I was about to mill down a streetmaster
i had almost finnished the fixtures
and found this.Well then i wait for this
to be ready for the market
I will try to build a efi with 8 individual
runners and this way i can run a carb
if i fail with the efi

[machoneman]

Something else to ponder:  a split 351C intake ala' the NASCAR circuit could be a real winner with the adapter.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/FORD-351c-FUSION-SERIES-EASY-PORT-INTAKE-MANIFOLD-3500-8500-RPM-9-2-DECK-/170815469978?_trksid=m7&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D3%26po%3DLVI%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D8345620978243190228#ht_1628wt_928

[jayb]

Excellent idea, Bob...

[chris_r]

hey Jay love your book and  Swartz Racing Manifolds.com and Blair Patrick are selling PSE style adapter intake just want to let you know be for you send alot of money and time and then you find out that one is all ready out

[jayb]

Thanks for the info, but I know about the Swartz manifold.  They sell for over $2000 each, so they are not really a competitor for what I am trying to manufacture.

[lovehamr]

Just saw this.  I'll be in for one!

[pharder]

I am new to this (and any other) forum, so if I am replying incorrectly please let me know. I have been looking for one of these for some time. I would definitely commit to 1, possibility 2 with the second one without the intake ports milled thru. In my early years I was running a 351C with a dual tunnel ram, however the engine developed an oil leak into the water jacket that I could not locate. The Cleveland was replaced with a stock 68 GT 390. The car has been sitting in the garage since 83, and I am working on getting it on the road again. The adapter for the 351C manifold would be a welcome mod. I will keep an eye on the forum for progress.

Thanks.

[drdano]

Since Trick Flow makes a 351C EFI manifold, could one theoretically piece together an EFI FE with 351W EFI aftermarket goodies?  Would be nice to cut the pain out of EFI using existing stuff if it was possible.  Jays lower intake, an EFI upper could definitely open this door but I know next to squat about the small block EFI stuff. 

[machoneman]

That's the beauty of the old PSE unit and Jay's work to bring a newer and better version to the marketplace. 

No theory but a fact that the TFS upper/lower would allow an easy EFI system for any FE.  Keep in mind that the lower would bolt up to Jay's PSE-like adaptor and the upper would bolt to that.  Underhood height may/would be an issue with say a Mustang/Torino/Falcon  but I'd bet that a truck or full size ride (re: Galaxie) could use the new adaptor and the 351C EFI unit and fit same under the OEM hood.

[482supersnake]

Jay, would there be enough room for injector bungs to be cast into the manifold? If so would that be a realistic option? Thanks Scott

[jayb]

I looked at that from a design perspective, and it really doesn't appear workable with the standard injectors that most people use.  However, there might be room for those newer mini-injectors.  I will leave enough material in the casting to at least try to machine injector bungs in one of them as a test.  If I can make it work, I will offer that as an option.

[Carnut427]

Save one for me Jay.

Dan

[KMcCullah]

Absolutely I'll take one!
I'm curious Jay. Have you done any more dyno tests with the PSE base since completing your book? Just wondering if other 351C manifolds would perform better than the ones you tested. Hey... how about a mini book featuring the pse base?
Kevin

[jayb]

Haven't done any more testing yet on the manifold base setup, but I plan to when I introduce the parts for sale.  I would certainly expect that the modern 351C intakes, like the Edelbrock 2865 or 2991, would be better than the old Torker I tested.

[Mike Anderson]

I would be interested in buying one since I have access to a couple of different 351C intakes (an old Scorpion and Torker)

[LargeRickhead66]

Hi; New to the forum. I joined so I could reply to this "marketing demand" post. Since you have discovered that production costs will exceed your earlier projected price, I just wanted you to know that I will buy at least one at $395. Seems like a bargain still....
  Rick Wanner   

[funsummer]

i would be very interested.
Being a aussie id be keen to run a CHI intake..
They seem to be very popular down here.

[My427stang]

Well that would be interesting, a Chi intaked FE?

[jayb]

I need to buy one of those CHI intakes and see about making it fit.  I have actually picked up a couple of Edelbrock single planes for the Yates style Cleveland heads, and they aren't close to fitting the normal 351C pattern.  However, my intake adapter has enough meat so that if necessary it could be specially machined to fit a manifold like that, if that is the direction that someone wanted to go.  So, no reason the CHI intakes couldn't work the same way.

[RICK LAKE]

JayB. Jay how are the manifolds coming. Also would be interested in buying one. Rick L.

[jayb]

Progess has stalled since the Drag Week thrash began, but the CAD work is essentially complete.  Next step is to get the patterns made, and then have the castings poured.  That should be happening in the October -November time frame.

[TorinoBP88]

I am very interested in a PSE intake base. I think this is a strong option for me rathern then a "normal 2x4" upgrade set up for my galaxie.  While a 2x4 is cool liking, I really like the 351C intake option...  If i spent a little more on this intake, i would get a neat set-up and would not have to fuss with tuning two carburetors which is not the simplest for a novice like me.  I would really like one of these on my 428 i want to re-build.

[Marx427]

Hi all,  This is my first post........I signed up so I could put my 2 cents worth in on this intake idea.  I was saving up my pennies back in the early 80' to buy a PSE intake for my GT-A Mustang when I had to sell the car for quick cash.
  I thought  it was a great idea back the and still do.......only now instead of just 351C intakes only........why not Weber adapters? or Hilbourn injectors? Cross Ram side draft Webers.....and,  since that old Edelbrock F68 intake performed so well in the Great Intake Comparo why not a six carb log manifold for Hot Rod guys?.......The PSE  intake base is  kind of a blank canvas.........MP

[Scott66gta]

Hi Jay...

Noob here...  I think this manifold is a great idea... Not to be a downer, but are there patents on the PSE made intake? If so, I hope all is taken care of. This adapter is a good example if "If you build it, they will buy" product. 

PSE still supports a website, and the date is fresh..
 http://testsite0.sharepoint.com/Pages/PSEEngines.aspx

I would imagine yours would be different application of an old good idea. I wouldn't mind seeing an adapter intake that would accept 351W manifolds, as well as the NASCAR Yates intake, etc.. A Blower adapter might be neat, too

Can't wait to see your product!!

[jayb]

Thanks for the info on that web site, I had no idea that they were still around.  FYI patents expire after 17 years, and that manifold has been around for a lot longer than that.  So I don't think there are any patent issues to worry about.  I've also done a patent search and found nothing current.

Since the 351W intakes have a water jacket passage, I doubt that they would fit on the adapter.  Just getting all the various 351C intakes to fit will be a challenge; with all the high port versions of the 351C heads out there, many of the adapters will have to be custom machined  to fit a specific intake.  This limits the 351C manifold interchangeability, of course, which is one appeal of the intake adapter.  Some of the advantages will remain, of course...

[Scott66gta]

kewl...

On that website, there is an FE in his showroom with those neat-o clear valve covers, and sporting the intake adapter.. 

While searching, I found an obit from 2007 of a daughter of a Paul Bedioan that was killed by a car. I don't know if it is the same Paul. If it is, My condolences go out to him.    It also shows an inactive business registration from that same area..

I purchased some pushrods and guideplate from him back in 1983 for a 429cj I was working on. Ordered them by snail-mail, talked to him on the phone, too.

[jayb]

That is cool stuff, but its a really old photo; I doubt that the location where it was taken still exists.  They aren't showing those items as products they have available on the web site.

[jayb]

While searching, I found an obit from 2007 of a daughter of a Paul Bedioan that was killed by a car. I don't know if it is the same Paul. If it is, My condolences go out to him.    It also shows an inactive business registration from that same area..

I purchased some pushrods and guideplate from him back in 1983 for a 429cj I was working on. Ordered them by snail-mail, talked to him on the phone, too.

Yes, that was Paul's daughter.  A very tragic event.

[pharder]

Jay,
     Just curious on the status of the PSE-style intake adapter project. Also there may not be enough room, but have you looked at the possibility of "port inserts" that could be changed when switching between 4V & 2V Cleveland intakes without changing the adapter and breaking the water jacket when using the same heads? Just a thought, but probably more trouble than it's worth.
Thanks, Pat.

[jayb]

I'll be posting updates on this project under a Member Projects thread, here:

http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=683.0

As of right now, I still can't say that the design is finished.  I have a meeting with the designer next Tuesday that I hope will wrap things up for good, and then it is off to the pattern shop.

Also, to answer your original question, I have not considered using port inserts, and would agree that this would probably be more trouble than its worth.

[pharder]

Jay,
         I just purchased a copy of your FE intake compro book and find it extremely interesting. There is a lot of good information that will be a big time saver when rebuilding the FE. One thing I noticed in the photos for the PSE adapter is that the intakes bolted on top of the adapter did not have a valley section. I have a 4V Weiand tunnel ram with the valley section cast into the manifold. It may not be an issue, however it appears from the photos the left front water passage of the adapter may interfere with the manifold base. On your design does the manifold valley section need to be removed, or will it fit above the water passage? Please let me know when you get a chance.

Thanks, and once again, great book.  Pat

[jayb]

Pat, on my Weiand tunnel ram a small corner of the intake flange had to be removed, and if I recall correctly the valley flange had to be trimmed a little to fit over the water passage.  FYI just about any 351C intake will require at least some modification to fit.  I will be offering manifold modification services along with the intake adapters themselves in case people don't want to do that part themselves.  But if you've got a hacksaw and a die grinder, most of the manifolds can be modified without too much trouble.

[billballinger]

The only fly in the ointment is the turn, I think I would aid the angle by rounding it to fit a 351C intake but maybe round the entry to match the turn in the heads.  The front 4 angle forward and the back four angle baclk.  It would take a little modeling and testing, but a bias turn in the intake like your sheelt metal intake was a work of art in that it ket everything a straight shot.  The entries would have to turn slighly around for the port angles to match.  I would think the turn would start immediately at the intake attachment to allow a smooth transition to th already short port and short side.

JMO.  But I have been screaming for this for years, you could service roller lifters, use a mirror to watch pushrod sweep and contact areas.  I also like the fact that it is a dry top, you can have a 1X4 for the street and a 2X4 for the strip, or have an EFI top with injectors, rails, throttle body and a plug in for a Fast setup.  The possibilities are 20th to 22nd century !

Your handmade sheet metal intake for the BT HRs is a work of art!