Author Topic: Building my own SOHC Rocker Arms  (Read 36551 times)

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jayb

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Building my own SOHC Rocker Arms
« on: November 05, 2011, 12:58:14 AM »
Of all the parts on the SOHC engines, I think the rocker arms have given me the most trouble.  Starting with the Dove and RAS rockers that blew up on my engine during Drag Week 2008, through the first set of T&D rockers where I fought through teething problems with the rocker arm adjusters and the rocker to shaft clearance, I can't think of any other component on the cammer that has caused as much trouble for me as the rockers.  After the initial problems with the T&D rockers were resolved, they became a good reliable component, and I've run them for over 2000 street miles and lots of dyno and drag strip use without any failures.  But as I started making more and more horsepower with the SOHC, other limitations of the stock rocker arm system arose.

Currently in my two SOHC engines, I only have about .015" clearance between the rocker body and the cam lobe as it spins by the big end roller.  Lift at the cam is a pretty healthy .560", but because the SOHC rocker ratio is only about 1.3:1, lift at the valve is only .735" or so with this setup.  Before my big SOHC started acting up last summer, it was making 960 horsepower at 6600 RPM, which is a LOT of power to get from a cam with only .735" lift.  As far as I'm concerned the engine was definitely cam limited.  I really wanted to use the advantages of the SOHC valvetrain to try to get lifts in the .850" range, to improve power production from the engine, but a bigger cam lobe wouldn't fit in the engine with the stock valvetrain arrangement; the lobe would hit the rocker.

A higher ratio rocker arm seemed to be the obvious solution.  If I could increase the rocker ratio from 1.3:1 to 1.5:1, I could increase the valve lift all across the range by about 15%, which would be a big help in terms of power production.  But there wasn't really any way to increase the rocker ratio with the fixed positions of the rocker shaft, valve, and cam.  I thought about moving the location of the roller on the rocker arm, to move it closer to the rocker shaft, but this would change the point where the roller contacted the lobe, and so change the lobe centerline angle required for the cam by a fairly large amount.  This meant custom cams ground from blanks with full round lobes to start with, which are expensive (around $1000 each if I recall correctly).

Outside of changing the basic design of the head, the only way that I could come up with to change the ratio was to move the rocker shaft centerline.  The shafts are around .840" in diameter, and I figured that I could get away with shafts as small as .625" in diameter if necessary.  The concept I came up with for this was to use some special bushings in the rocker shaft bores in the heads, which were .840" OD and .625" ID.  But the ID hole would be offset towards the cam side of the rocker shaft bores.  This would effectively move the centerline of the rocker shaft about .100" towards the cam.  Then, I could design and build new rockers with a 1.5:1 ratio, to fit the .625" diameter rocker shaft, and still leave the cam roller wheel in the same location with respect to the camshaft.

After doing some work with my CAD program and convincing myself this was a feasible approach, I started working on the design last year.  After a few weeks I came up with the rocker arm design shown below:



I designed the rockers to use the roller wheels, needle bearings, and pins from a spare set of T&D rockers that I have, because they have proven themselves to be good parts.  I went with a roller tip also, and got some examples from the standard FE roller rockers that Doug at Precision Oil Pumps sells.  I wanted to get away from the adjuster and just go back to the original SOHC method of using lash caps of various thicknesses to set the lash.  This approach limits the cams that I can use for this high ratio rocker setup, because there's only so far you can go with lash cap thicknesses, and I have quite a few sets of SOHC cams that are ground on smaller than normal base circles and would require really thick lash caps to work.  But I decided that for the engine I was going to test these rockers on, I'd stick with the biggest SOHC cams that Comp offers, so I designed the rockers to work with that cam, and the valve height arrangement in my 585" SOHC.

Last winter I got started on the machine work for one example rocker arm.  I wanted to make the first one out of aluminum to make the machining easier, and to test fit the rocker into a test cylinder head, in case I had to make any adjustments to the design before I started one of the real ones out of steel.  The complex shapes on the rocker made for some fairly complicated CNC programs.  There were some areas where an arc in three dimensions would have been very useful, but my CNC machine can only do an X-Y arc or an X-Z arc.  After programming the rocker for a while, it became clear that some fixtures would be required to hold the semi-machined rocker to get the all the machining operations correct.  I decided to start without these fixtures, and machine one half of the rocker as much as possible.  I got this far last winter:





Some of the machine work so far is just roughed in, to get the rocker so that it is ready to go on the fixture.  At this point I had to stop on this project, because I was already running out of time on the Drag Week car last winter, and needed to focus on that.  Recently I picked up this project again, in anticipation of finding the problems with my 585" SOHC and getting them resolved, so that I could try out this set of rockers.  So, over the last few weeks I've designed the fixtures I need to hold the rocker in place for further machining, and got them machined over the last couple of weeks.  The first piece, shown below, holds the rocker arm in three different positions:





The second photo shows a stub shaft that slides into the fixture, that the rocker arm will then slide onto.  I can put a bolt through the whole assembly to keep it tight.  The two posts on the left side of the photo are two fixture points for the valve roller end of the rocker.  I can bolt through the valve roller hole into either of these posts to angle the rocker in two different spots, for machining at certain angles.  Same thing for the two holes in the post on the right side of the fixture.  All machining can be done with the rocker in one of three positions, depending on how it is bolted in place.  Here's a photo of the rocker so far, positioned on this fixture:



The angled rib along the top of the rocker is another machining challenge that requires a special fixture.  I would like to machine this flat with a ball end mill, using an arc in the X-Z plane.  In order to do that, I had to be able to fixture the rocker arm so that the rib was along the X axis of the mill table.  In order to do this I built another plate as a fixture, and put some holes in it for pins to align the first fixture.  Here's a photo of the plate with two of the pins installed:



And, with the first fixture installed on the pins:



Moving the pins to different holes allows the first fixture to be rotated on the plate to a certain angle, which will line up the rib on the rocker arm with the X-axis of the mill table:



I'll get back to working on programming the machining operations for finishing this rocker over the next couple of weeks.  I also have to build the rocker shafts and the offset bushings and get these installed in my test head.  My first pass on the rocker shafts, also last winter, ended in failure when they warped fairly dramatically during the heat treating operation.  I figured out what the problem was, and now have a solution, so I'll be starting on a new set of rocker shafts in the next couple of weeks also.  This will be a fairly long running project, and I plan to get the first rocker arm done, mount it on the first shaft in the test head, and then send the whole setup out to Bill Conley to see how it behaves on his spintron machine.  If it looks OK, I'll machine the rest of the rocker arms and make a whole set.  If not, its back to the T&Ds!  I'll update this project when I have some more info, hopefully in 2-3 weeks.






Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

ScotiaFE

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Re: Building my own SOHC Rocker Arms
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2011, 08:11:36 AM »
That is some Very Kool whittling.
The .625" shaft centerless ground hardened should be an off the shelf item I would think.
Of coruse you would need to drill the holes to your specs.

jayb

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Re: Building my own SOHC Rocker Arms
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2011, 09:52:16 AM »
Drilling the holes is the big issue Howie, specifically the oiling hole down through the middle of the shaft.  That has to be gun drilled, and as far as I know trying to gun drill a hardened shaft leads to problems.  I also have had problems in the past machining hardened materials, even with carbide tooling, and of course these shafts have to have oil holes and alignment pin holes drilled in them.  After talking to some other people who build their own custom rockershafts, the process that I'm following is to cut the shafts to length and clean up the ends on the lathe, get the shafts gun drilled, finish the remaining machining operations for the oil holes and slots, alignment pin holes, pipe threads on the ends of the shaft, etc., then have them heat treated, and finally centerless ground.  I went through this whole process once before, starting with 4140 material.  Unfortunately, at heat treat the 4140 shafts warped by about .020", and one of them broke when they were trying to straighten it.  The heat treat place suggested I use 8620 material instead, because they said it would not warp as easily during the heat treat.  So, I have new 8620 material now, and will start the shafts again soon...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

ScotiaFE

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I sometimes
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2011, 11:28:44 AM »
forget how much work it is to actually drill a hole since I retired. lol
I have not really machined anything for a while.
My new full time hobby. Burning wood.
Well cutting and splitting and stacking. What was I thinking moving out to the woods.  ::)

Mario428

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Re: Building my own SOHC Rocker Arms
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2011, 07:03:35 PM »
This may tick you off more than help you but you have to move up your cad software.
I have been working on and off on a rocker arm redesign. I know you do not get true dynamic testing but for geometry purposes using a rough approx of a cam lobe is certainly doable.
I do understand the appeal of making stuff though, little jaded with that myself GRIN so I prefer to test on the computer

Simulation of my valve train, ignore the missing parts, you get the idea.

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v660/Mario428/?action=view&current=FERockermockup.mp4

or

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v660/Mario428/?action=view&current=FERockermockup.mp4

BTW no machine I know of will do 3 axis radius's, my Fanuc will do helical, 2 axis radius with 3rd axis straight line.
Cam programs do it by making very small straight line moves in 3 axis.
The CNC file for my front cover base is 2 megabytes, yes a 2 meg ascII file, IE Notepad.

AS always you are doing a heck of a job, enjoy seeing what a real workaholic can get done.

jayb

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Re: Building my own SOHC Rocker Arms
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2011, 08:36:13 PM »
Pretty cool videos; I have to agree regarding the CAD software.  Never have been comfortable with the 3D versions, but I guess I just have to get to it.  How much is SolidWorks?

Cranking away on a new project tonight; I'll post another new project thread that is machining related tomorrow...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

machoneman

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Re: Building my own SOHC Rocker Arms
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2011, 08:41:22 AM »
I've had a lot of experience in the past in buying multiple 'seats' of Solidworks software, training, etc. for a manufacturing firm I headed up some years ago...to the tune of well over $25,000 in initial purchases! No engineer here but later, my engineers and drafters all said it was the best thing they ever got (Christmas for engineers?) and it was much better than AutoCad's offerings. That said, I do believe today's versions in 'onesy' purchases run about $4,500 for the initial purchase, training included. But, there is also an annual fee of about $1,300 for updates, new releases, etc. that is mandatory.

Btw, the training, be it hands-on classroom or by 'Net tutorial, was top-notch and technical help always a call or e-mail away.

I do have a suggestion: any of the SolidWorks resellers could get you into a free introductory class to get the feel for the package. Heck, you can give it a whirl too via the 'Net as I think they still offer free, limited program access for users to try out the software.

Love the work rocker work here too. As a senior manufacturing exec, I always looked at these kind of projects with a hard nose: what does it do, how much will it cost, how long, etc. Gotta tell you Jay, Ford must have had a ton of engineers working on the rocker, shaft and upper valvetrain system alone years ago and here you're doing it all by yourself! So, the financial/accounting method goes out the window when one is working on a labor of love since nobody has more Ford blue in their blood than you..hah!     

 


   
Bob Maag

427Fastback

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Re: Building my own SOHC Rocker Arms
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2011, 11:15:48 PM »
Interesting stuff....You should be able to find/buy.....4140 precision ground HTSR (heat treated stress relieved) shaft.We use it all the time at work.We also gun drill it ...
Option/thought...you could use 4340 and hard chrome it..

Cory
1968 Mustang Fastback...427 MR 5spd (owned since 1977)
1967 Mustang coupe...Trans Am replica
1936 Diamond T 212BD
1990 Grizzly pick-up

jayb

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Re: Building my own SOHC Rocker Arms
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2011, 10:35:47 AM »
Do you happen to know where your company gets the HTSR 4140?  I need .625" diameter, and haven't been able to find it anywhere.  Thanks, Jay
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

babybolt

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Re: Building my own SOHC Rocker Arms
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2011, 12:22:28 PM »
At the Practical Machinist forums on Cad/Cam there are always discussions about which software to start out with:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/cad-cam/

jayb

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Re: Building my own SOHC Rocker Arms
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2011, 03:08:07 PM »
Thanks Doug, that's a very informative site that I didn't know about...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

427Fastback

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Re: Building my own SOHC Rocker Arms
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2011, 11:17:22 PM »
Jay....I will check into the HTSR shaft tomorrow (read..I will have the chief engineer do it for me)If i get a minute i will see if we have some in stock....Cory
1968 Mustang Fastback...427 MR 5spd (owned since 1977)
1967 Mustang coupe...Trans Am replica
1936 Diamond T 212BD
1990 Grizzly pick-up

WConley

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Re: Building my own SOHC Rocker Arms
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2011, 11:23:21 AM »
Good stuff Jay!

I'll keep an eye on your progress...

I'm currently buttoning up a SOHC for a friend's ERA Cobra.  Ford aluminum heads and 14:1 compression.  What a beast!

- Bill
A careful study of failure will yield the ingredients for success.

jayb

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Re: Building my own SOHC Rocker Arms
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2011, 01:17:30 PM »
Mario has jumped in to give me a hand on this project.  So far he has taken my 2D drawings and converted them to 3D using SolidWorks.  Pretty cool to actually be able to visualize what the rocker is going to look like:





Hopefully Mario will be able to use this drawing to automatically generate a G-code file that I can just plug into my CNC machine to build these parts.  Thanks again for the help Mario!
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

babybolt

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Re: Building my own SOHC Rocker Arms
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2011, 05:52:07 PM »
It would be interesting to do an FEA on the rocker.  There looks to be an abrupt cross section transition at the inside of each roller saddle. 

On the shafts, if I remember right, hollow rocker arm shafts are made by buying the material as a tube not drilling the length of a solid bar.

jayb

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Re: Building my own SOHC Rocker Arms
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2011, 07:03:52 PM »
I agree it would be interesting to do that analysis.  On the rocker shafts, I'm not aware of any tube that is available that meets my requirements.  Because the shafts are only going to be about .625" diameter, I need a very small hole down the middle to maximize the wall thickness of the shaft.  I've settled on 0.187" for the hole diameter, and can get it drilled locally.  If you or anyone else know of a source for tubing with .625" OD and .187" ID, please let me know.  It would save me the $30 bucks it costs to get each shaft drilled...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Mario428

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Re: Building my own SOHC Rocker Arms
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2011, 07:40:00 PM »
  It would save me the $30 bucks it costs to get each shaft drilled...

$30.00 I laughed when I saw that, where I live has a long history of farming and fishing but no industrial activity, too remote. I only know of 1 gun drill and I would owe many favors to get some parts on it, $30.00 each would be a steal. LOL

babybolt

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Re: Building my own SOHC Rocker Arms
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2011, 09:20:22 PM »
Jay, try this company:

http://www.teamtube.com/mechanical_tubing.htm

or

http://www.steelforge.com/alloysteels.htm

I just goggled HTSR 4140 tubing.

Somewhere it will be out there.

Since the SOHC rocker arm shafts are so well supported, strength isn't a super big issue.  If you really want to get trick, a DLC surface treatment will keep it from wearing out.

jayb

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Re: Building my own SOHC Rocker Arms
« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2011, 10:03:48 PM »
  It would save me the $30 bucks it costs to get each shaft drilled...

$30.00 I laughed when I saw that, where I live has a long history of farming and fishing but no industrial activity, too remote. I only know of 1 gun drill and I would owe many favors to get some parts on it, $30.00 each would be a steal. LOL

As luck would have it, there is a company fairly close to me called American Gun Drilling.  That's all they do, and they have a national client base, so obviously I'm getting the benefit of their volumes of work...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

jayb

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Re: Building my own SOHC Rocker Arms
« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2011, 10:05:47 PM »
Jay, try this company:

http://www.teamtube.com/mechanical_tubing.htm

or

http://www.steelforge.com/alloysteels.htm

I just goggled HTSR 4140 tubing.

Somewhere it will be out there.

Since the SOHC rocker arm shafts are so well supported, strength isn't a super big issue.  If you really want to get trick, a DLC surface treatment will keep it from wearing out.

Thanks Doug, I will check those places out...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

WConley

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Re: Building my own SOHC Rocker Arms
« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2011, 02:24:23 PM »
Let me know when you're ready to do an FEA  ;)
A careful study of failure will yield the ingredients for success.

Cyclone Joe

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Re: Building my own SOHC Rocker Arms
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2011, 10:10:13 PM »
Hello Jay,

What strength/hardness are you attempting to achieve with the 4140?  Normally you order it to a specific hardness or strength range defined by the material specification.  If you know what your minimum strength values need to be, I can look up the spec and turn you to a couple of material suppliers.

Take care, and if you need material support on the rockers themselves dont be afraid to ask!

'Cyclone Joe' Burnett


jayb

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Re: Building my own SOHC Rocker Arms
« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2011, 12:22:08 AM »
Nice to see you here, Joe!  What I really wanted to use for a material was the same material T&D uses, which is 4130 steel heat treated to "Condition B".  I was unable to find that material in the size that I wanted, which is 1 1/2" square bar.  Several places on the internet listed it, but nobody could deliver it.  So, I ended up settling on 4140 because it was readily available from McMaster Carr; see the link to the material here:

http://www.mcmaster.com/#9116k413/=extteg

If I could find the 4130 Condition B material, I would definitely use that instead.  Know where I can get a 3 foot bar of that stuff?
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Mario428

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Re: Building my own SOHC Rocker Arms
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2011, 07:48:44 AM »
I did some tinkering with Cosmos in Solidworks and did some stress analysis on the rocker arm.

Using 4340 at 108,000 PSI and a 1000LB spring load (spring load itself and some acceleration forces = wild ass guess LOL)  the original design has some issues.
I did a rev B which took the rib, widened it to .19 from .13 and centered it on the roller at the valve stem, things look much better.

I am going to send you a couples of E-Drawing files you can take a look at Jay. If someone who knows a lot more about stresses than I do wants to take a look email me at mario.vanwiechen@marandeng.com, I will send the files and a link to a viewer for the files. Viewer allows spinning the 3-D model with the stresses shown

jayb

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Re: Building my own SOHC Rocker Arms
« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2011, 04:26:47 PM »
This thread is really starting to get engineering oriented, as I hoped it would; this is pretty cool stuff if you ask me LOL!  Both Mario and Bill Conley have done some analysis work on the rocker arm design.  This is FEA (Finite Element Analysis) stuff, and shows where you can get stress loading on the rocker arm.  Red on the analysis indicates high stress, and blue indicates low.  Mario felt that the rib on the rocker arm needed to be thicker based on the stress analysis, so he modified the rocker arm drawing to increase the thickness by .060".  Here are his two stress analysis results, with the original rocker design and the modified design with the thicker rib:





Bill did a dynamic analysis on the rocker, and sent me a couple of videos showing an exaggerated view of how the rocker deforms, at zero lift and also at peak lift, with a 1000 pound spring load.  Links to these videos are below:

http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/BillC1.wmv

http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/BillC2.wmv

Bill's comment was that the rocker design looked acceptable as is, especially given the use of the rocker.  Bill also thinks that the zero lift stress analysis is more important than the full lift analysis, because at zero lift the rocker arm has to start the valve and spring package moving, while at full lift the inertia of the valve and spring take some of the load off.  Bill's analysis showed a very slight twist in the roller end of the rocker when the load is applied, but nothing too substantial.  The deflection of the arm at 1000 pounds is 0.017", which is a little higher than the T&D arm (0.010"), but is probably the result of the smaller diameter rocker shaft, and the resulting smaller diameter of the body of the rocker arm.

It is interesting that the results of the FEA work is not quite the same, and points to differences between how the two analyses were set up.

In any case, either as is or with minor modifications it looks like the rocker will work out as intended.  I actually kind of like Mario's modification to make the rib thicker, because I'm going to have to drill a hole through that rib in order to oil the valve tip roller.  Making the rib thicker will make drilling or EDM-ing the hole easier.  That hole is also not part of the analysis, because it isn't drawn into the arm yet.  My plan on this was to wait until I had an aluminum rocker machined, test fit it on the head, and make any required adjustments to the design, and then worry about the oil holes.  So we will see how that works out...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Cyclone Joe

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Re: Building my own SOHC Rocker Arms
« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2011, 10:47:10 PM »
Hi Jay,

Here are a couple of sources I would suggest.  Tri-Tech Metals has ALWAYS found what I needed - from steel, titanium, niobium and everything in between.
http://www.tri-techmetals.com/  Ask for Sam.

I've also had good luck with these folks recently. 
http://rmat.com/

As for the material defined as 'condition B', this means that the material strength is a result of the 'as rolled' condition.  It will be stronger than annealed, but weaker than QT (quenched and tempered) N (normalized) or NT (normalized & tempered).  The as-rolled condition doesn't normally define a minimum yield or Ultimate strength (modulus remains unchanged however) or minimum hardness specifically.  I will look in MIL-HDBK-5 (the metal properties bible) and see if I can find any additional information.

You might ask T&D if they have a minimum hardness on their material as well as it being 'condition B'.  The hardness will allow us to calculate the yield and ultimate strength.  Otherwise, if you're open to it, I can suggest a couple of tempers that are easy to machine and would be stronger than the factory style rocker, and have a higher yield than 108 ksi.


Joe
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 10:52:09 PM by Cyclone Joe »

jayb

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Re: Building my own SOHC Rocker Arms
« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2011, 11:45:59 PM »
Joe, thanks for the info.  I will try those sources.  Regarding the steel alloy itself, I picked 4140  pretty much because it was readily available.  I'm not stuck on the idea of using 4130 condition B, I just figured it would work well because that's what T&D is using.  Assuming I could get any alloy, which would you suggest?  I want to be able to machine it with minimal difficulty, and I don't want to go through any heat treat step after the machining process.  And of course I'd like to have the rocker arm as strong as possible.  Thanks - Jay
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Mario428

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Re: Building my own SOHC Rocker Arms
« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2011, 07:14:44 AM »
Just to throw up a couple of pics of my own and get my $.02 in. GRIN


This view shows the displacement or flex that the rocker goes thru with a 1000 lb load. Note this is the Rev B rocker with a .190 rib centered on the valve end slot.
While it looks like it is twisted to hell LOL, note the scale shown on the pic and the number shown on the scale, scale is 28.7 to 1 and max displacement is 3.093e-001 mm or .012. Most of the displacement takes place around the hole and my beleif is the pin pressed in the hole will help support the hole.

Rev A rocker with .12 rib not centered on the slot

Scale is 19 to 1 for this one, displacement is 4.643e-001mm or .018
My concern would be the way the outside edge of the slot is twisted up

cammerfe

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Re: Building my own SOHC Rocker Arms
« Reply #28 on: November 20, 2011, 02:07:13 PM »
I have several thoughts.

First, it's obvious that we are now getting into the real cutting-edge of SOHC development. And, Jay, you're leading the charge.
Second, your stuff's so pretty you need to make some out of gold. They'd be just right nestled into the decolletage of a really first class blonde or redhead! ;D ;)
Third, wouldn't it make sense to look at EDM to create oil-holes.
Fourth, spacing 'donuts' along a piece of tubing and having them brazed into place in some 'alley' shop would seem to be a way of fabricating cam blanks. There're surely little shops here in the Detroit area that would be 'up' for such a job.

And all the above comments apply to those who're chiming in on this project. This is first-class stuff!!!

KS
« Last Edit: November 20, 2011, 02:17:01 PM by cammerfe »

Mario428

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Re: Building my own SOHC Rocker Arms
« Reply #29 on: November 21, 2011, 07:56:45 AM »
Had a flurry of emails with Jay & Bill late last week and my stress analysis was flawed.
Bill Conley has does a bunch of this kinda stuff and his model did a much better job of the analysis.
The decision was though to center the rib, will be interesting, looking forward to seeing one in metal.

WConley

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Re: Building my own SOHC Rocker Arms
« Reply #30 on: November 23, 2011, 09:15:30 AM »
^^^^  Naw, I think you contributed quite a bit Mario.  The discussion resulted in some good improvements to the design.

I'm really looking forward to seeing a real one of these as well!
A careful study of failure will yield the ingredients for success.

Cyclone Joe

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Re: Building my own SOHC Rocker Arms
« Reply #31 on: December 03, 2011, 11:46:48 AM »
Hello Jay,

Sorry for the delay in getting you a material specification.  Here is a rundown of two easy to purchase & easier to machine materials:

Alloy: 4340
Specification: MIL-S-5000 (also AMS-S-5000) CONDITION F
Min Yield Strength: 130 ksi
Min Ultimate Strength: 150 ksi (equivalent hardness 34 Rockwell C scale)

Alloy: 4130
Specification: AMS-6758 CONDITION F
Min Yield Strength: 100 ksi
Min Ultimate Strength: 125 ksi (equivalent hardness 25 Rockwell C scale)

The machinists I know prefer 4340 over 4130 given the choice because that little bit of extra carbon helps.  How?  The extra carbon causes the material chip, whereas the 4130 wold want to smear more or push.  Also at these hardness levels you shouldn't have too great of difficulty in machining either alloy.

Now, I looked up what the material properties of 4130 in a  hot rolled condition (condition B) would be no greater than 229 HB hardness.  Converted, the material would have a maximum ultimate tensile strength no greater than 111 ksi.  Either option above would be a strength improvement and a more controlled material than getting it in the condition B as the only requirement is that the condition B cannot be stronger than 111 ksi, but says nothing about how weak it could be. 

Maybe the vendor has an internal specification of a hardness range for accepting the material?  Were you able to find out what the hardness was of the material?

Thanks
Joe

jayb

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Re: Building my own SOHC Rocker Arms
« Reply #32 on: December 03, 2011, 12:00:09 PM »
Joe, thanks for the information.  Sounds like 4340 is the way to go on this.  I will get in contact with the people you suggested and try to get some if I can't find it locally.  Also, the guy I talked to at T&D didn't know if there was a minimum hardness spec on the 4130 that they use in their SOHC rockers; he just said he orders the steel from a certain source and has had good luck with it.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Cyclone Joe

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Re: Building my own SOHC Rocker Arms
« Reply #33 on: December 03, 2011, 12:15:02 PM »
Jay,

If interested, and if you have a T&D rocker, I can have the hardness tested in a low stress location.  If you send it out this week, I'll test it myself on the 9th.  If you cant tell, I'm interested!  :)

Joe

jayb

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Re: Building my own SOHC Rocker Arms
« Reply #34 on: December 03, 2011, 07:00:15 PM »
OK Joe, I'll send one out to you on Monday.  Send me an email with your address; I'm not sure if I still have it.  I'm kind of curious about this myself...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Barry_R

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Re: Building my own SOHC Rocker Arms
« Reply #35 on: December 10, 2011, 10:28:17 AM »
I have some wounded T&D cammer rockers if you want to do a destructive inspection.

jayb

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Re: Building my own SOHC Rocker Arms
« Reply #36 on: December 18, 2011, 10:23:39 PM »
Previously I'd sent off a T&D SOHC rocker to Joe Burnett for hardness testing.  Joe tested it and returned it to me; it measured 25 on the Rockwell C scale, which Joe says translates to 122K psi for tensile strength.  So it sounds like if I go with 4340 steel for the rocker material, it should be at least as strong as the material used in the T&D rockers.

Mario has also been working on creating the G-code from the drawing, and has sent me the first two operations for the rocker arm.  I set this up in my machine today, and after some screwing around with the code and making my machine work with it, I finally got through the process.  Here's a couple of photos of the rocker arm as it is right now:





I'm not totally happy with the machining on this, for a couple of reasons.  One is that I think the aggressive nature of the toolpaths in Mario's code are moving the zeros around on my machine.  I'm sure they would work fine on a new larger CNC machine, but my machine is old and is a smaller machine, so I generally have to take it easy with the toolpaths to avoid having the table shake and causing accuracy problems.  Also the machining done by the ball mill left stripes on the top surface of one side of the part; again probably a machine issue.  I think I'm going to try re-running another test rocker, but slowing the feeds way down to try to avoid this issue.

In any case, though, progress is being made, and I'm looking forward to continuing the machining on the test rocker arm.  This week I expect to finish machining the rocker shafts, and get them sent out for heat treating.  Then, all that is left is the centerless grinding, and the shafts will be finished.  I still have to work on getting the remaining parts designed and machined (offset bushings for the rocker shafts and spacers for the rocker arms), but those shouldn't take too long.  I'm still hoping to be able to deliver a steel test rocker to Bill sometime in January for the spintron work.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Mario428

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Re: Building my own SOHC Rocker Arms
« Reply #37 on: December 19, 2011, 08:19:13 AM »
I had way more trouble generating that code than I ever thought I would, have not done a lot of CAM work like this. The parts we do every day are a lot simpler than this.
But if the toolpaths are too aggressive in alum they will never cut steel without killing tools constantly.
Will have to rethink the process and add more tools with lighter cuts.

WConley

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Re: Building my own SOHC Rocker Arms
« Reply #38 on: December 19, 2011, 09:59:02 AM »
To finish 3-D profiled areas out, you can "pencil trace" all of the radii with the proper ball end mill.  This cleans up the corners beautifully.

Yes, 4340 will require some lights cuts to maintain accuracy.  At the very least do a couple of light finishing passes to sneak up on the final dimension.  When I do my final pass, I reduce the stepover to just a few percent of the tool diameter if I'm looking for a good surface finish.  It takes time, but for a part this small it won't be too bad.
A careful study of failure will yield the ingredients for success.

jayb

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Re: Building my own SOHC Rocker Arms
« Reply #39 on: December 19, 2011, 12:30:34 PM »
I had way more trouble generating that code than I ever thought I would, have not done a lot of CAM work like this. The parts we do every day are a lot simpler than this.
But if the toolpaths are too aggressive in alum they will never cut steel without killing tools constantly.
Will have to rethink the process and add more tools with lighter cuts.

One thing I like about your approach, as compared to the original way I was going to do this, is hanging the part off the end of the bar stock to get most of the machining done.  That makes a lot more sense than my original approach, which relied on the fixture to get the back side of the part machined.  I'm tempted to take another stab at manually programming the part, using this approach.  I know this is a lot of work for you Mario, and I didn't mean to rope you into a big project.  If you continue to have issues getting the code to work let me know, and I'll go back to the manual approach.  It is indeed a complex project...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Cyclone Joe

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Re: Building my own SOHC Rocker Arms
« Reply #40 on: December 19, 2011, 10:54:45 PM »
Jay,
I'm not sure who you're getting end-mills from, but the end mills and cutters from Robbjack have produced the best results in my experience.  When I was involved working on a project that needed to have zero cutting mistakes, or any other issues really, we went with Robbjack.  They were helpful in setting proper feeds and speeds with their cutters, plus they have helpful videos.  This may help with your rockers once you start making the steel ones. 

Here is their homepage and a few videos.  Interesting tidbit, if your feeds and speeds are set right with hard steel, you can get away without using coolant!  I had a tool and die maker make a fool out of me.

http://www.robbjack.com/html/tech.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JATjRSzXgjw&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FimDQPwCqn0&feature=related

And no, I dont get a kick back  :)

Joe

Mario428

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Re: Building my own SOHC Rocker Arms
« Reply #41 on: December 20, 2011, 07:52:39 AM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JATjRSzXgjw&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FimDQPwCqn0&feature=related


Very cool videos and not intending to criticize but it takes a serious machine to do that, especially the one in steel.
I have a lightly used 8 year old machine that would not do that, even with the Fanuc hardware it is just not stiff enough. Unfortunately Jay's machine is a lot less stiff. Never thought the speeds and feeds I used would be a problem.

Got your email on my home computer Jay and will reply this evening.

Cyclone Joe

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Re: Building my own SOHC Rocker Arms
« Reply #42 on: December 22, 2011, 10:47:41 AM »
Hi Mario, no criticism taken.  Where I used to work, we used to do this type of tool path machining using well-worn HAAS and mid 1980's Okuma Howa's but for roughing passes only.  Then everything would slow down to a crawl, change cutters and flood with coolant for the final passes.  The last video was more 'for show' than anything since I believe it would be tough to martian any type of accuracy with that much machine movement unless it was a Hermle or a Mori.

Is the machining a result of the tool set up, or tool path selection?

And out of curiosity, what kind of machine does Jay have anyways?

Thanks again
Joe

jayb

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Re: Building my own SOHC Rocker Arms
« Reply #43 on: December 22, 2011, 03:42:28 PM »
Joe, I have a Milltronics Partner 1 CNC machine, circa 1991.  5 HP, 26 X 16 X 20 travels, etc.  Bought it used, of course.  I like Milltronics because the company is local to the Minneapolis area, so if I need parts or service it is only a phone call away.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Mario428

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Re: Building my own SOHC Rocker Arms
« Reply #44 on: December 23, 2011, 07:55:18 AM »
Hi Mario, no criticism taken.  Where I used to work, we used to do this type of tool path machining using well-worn HAAS and mid 1980's Okuma Howa's but for roughing passes only.  Then everything would slow down to a crawl, change cutters and flood with coolant for the final passes.  The last video was more 'for show' than anything since I believe it would be tough to martian any type of accuracy with that much machine movement unless it was a Hermle or a Mori.

Is the machining a result of the tool set up, or tool path selection?

And out of curiosity, what kind of machine does Jay have anyways?

Thanks again
Joe

Everything comes into play when trying to cut parts. I handcoded all my programs for many years. Did a couple of parts where I had 60+ hours sitting at a computer with a CAD program and a text editor going (2 machines in the DOS days LOL) and I do like that control over the toolpaths. Not enough experience with the CAM software on parts like this so some of the fault lays with the setup in the CAM setup. Some of the fault lies with the CAM software and the decisions it is programmed to make, it assumes a stiff good working machine.
Machine does make a difference, hi feed rates need good servo's with the power not to overshoot and keep the cutter engaged the way it should be

Just had a thought, the code would work fine on my machine I should try it and see how it works.


jayb

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Re: Building my own SOHC Rocker Arms
« Reply #45 on: December 23, 2011, 03:58:42 PM »
Mario, that would really be interesting!  It would be a good comparison showing a new machine compared to an older one.

FYI I talked yesterday to my local friend who runs a CNC shop filled with Milltronics machines, and he suggested I measure the backlash on the three axes.  X axis was .0023", Y was .0021", and Z was zero backlash as far as I could tell.  So the backlash is not the primary issue with this machine; the ballscrews appear to be reasonably good.  I think it is the shock of the table vibrating when the cuts are aggressive that is causing the problem; I'll bet the encoders are skipping steps, or double counting pulses or something when this is going on.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Cyclone Joe

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Re: Building my own SOHC Rocker Arms
« Reply #46 on: February 17, 2012, 04:32:42 PM »
Hi Jay,

I wanted to check in and see if you've been able to secure any of the alloy bar stock you were looking for?  Are the rocker arms on the back-burner for now?

Cheers
Joe

jayb

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Re: Building my own SOHC Rocker Arms
« Reply #47 on: February 17, 2012, 06:02:09 PM »
Yes, they have been put on the back burner again; I'm trying to get done with my sheet metal intake manifold for my high riser project, and also get going on building my smaller SOHC.  I should be back on the rocker arm project sometime towards the end of March.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC