FE Power Cylinder Heads on the Dyno, Round 2

[fastf67]

I also believe the cam is not a good match and needing a little less duration @ .050 with more split keeping more air/fuel mix in the cylinder to make power. Flow should not be a problem at all. 13-1 static compression and thinking the dynamic compression is way lower due to mix bleeding back out valves. Yes it is a guess with out knowing the actual degreed timing events but can explain why it liked the new headers so much by them helping to get air/fuel back in the cylinder. A full 10 hp difference from your regular dyno headers that your 585ci drag week engine ran on? Your work is outstanding!!! One sure fire way to know is to pull a jon kaase if you can find a finger to sacrifice. LOL I always laugh at that cuz it looks like something in a cartoon but proves a good point.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Iq1B-2paCs

[jayb]

Intake manifold flow by itself is almost meaningless.
What happens when intake AND cylinder head are mated is what matters.
There are several BBC intake manifolds that have a lousy port angle into the cylinder head. This doesn't show up testing what the manifold flows. It does show up when the manifold is attached to the cylinder head.
TFS head flows 330 without intake - what does it flow with TFS intake attached? Less than 330.

Just my 2cents.

Intake flow is certainly NOT almost meaningless.  You can't always flow the intake and head together, and in that case having intake flow data is very valuable.  Even if you have the lousy port angle that you mention, an intake that flows better will let the combination with the head flow better.  When I've tested unported vs. ported intakes on the same engine, the ported intakes make more power.  Your comment shows a lack of practical experience.

[1968galaxie]

MY direct quote: "Intake manifold flow by itself is almost meaningless"

Your quote: "Intake flow is certainly NOT almost meaningless"

I did NOT say intake manifold flow was meaningless.

The intake manifold is part of the intake tract.
Yes, in a few cases where one cannot test both intake and cylinder head together, one has to make do and take a guess.

Taking any intake (I am not talking yours jay) and porting it to flow a certain number is folly.
Fuel distribution, plenum size, port taper, port plenum entrance shaping - has plenty to do with intake porting/improvement.

Let us take a single plane intake manifold as an example. Make the individual ports bigger and it will flow more on the bench!
Will it make more power? Perhaps more than it was cast?

[DubyaTF]

  Just out of curiosity, what fuel are you running on the dyno and have you thought about an injection setup in the future?

[jayb]

The intake manifold is part of the intake tract.
Yes, in a few cases where one cannot test both intake and cylinder head together, one has to make do and take a guess.

Folks almost never flow the intake and head together.  Not just a few cases, in nearly all cases.

Taking any intake (I am not talking yours jay) and porting it to flow a certain number is folly.

I disagree.  If you know the head flow numbers, shooting for 125% of the head flow in the intake has been shown to practically remove the intake as a bottleneck to flow.  Joe's comments that my runners flow a little too much at 130% indicate that the velocity in the runners could be higher if they were smaller, without restricting flow into the head.

Fuel distribution, plenum size, port taper, port plenum entrance shaping - has plenty to do with intake porting/improvement.

Of course flow isn't everything, but it is probably the best measurement we have available when modifying a manifold. 

Let us take a single plane intake manifold as an example. Make the individual ports bigger and it will flow more on the bench!
Will it make more power? Perhaps more than it was cast?

It depends on the heads, but it probably will, at least based on my dyno test results.  What do your dyno test results say?

[jayb]

  Just out of curiosity, what fuel are you running on the dyno and have you thought about an injection setup in the future?

I'm currently running Q-16 fuel, but I may have to switch to C-16 soon due to local availability.  Also, after I run the 4V and 8V intake on the SE heads, I'll be taking a few days to set up the crossram injection system so I can test that.

[Joe-JDC]

MY direct quote: "Intake manifold flow by itself is almost meaningless"

Your quote: "Intake flow is certainly NOT almost meaningless"

I did NOT say intake manifold flow was meaningless.

The intake manifold is part of the intake tract.
Yes, in a few cases where one cannot test both intake and cylinder head together, one has to make do and take a guess.

Taking any intake (I am not talking yours jay) and porting it to flow a certain number is folly.

I totally resent and disagree with this statement.    Some of the best minds in the racing world always need to know what their heads and intake manifolds flow.  To say otherwise is ignorance.  I have 48 years of porting experience, and I have been using flow benches since 1988 to determine flow of heads and intake manifolds, both separate and together.  I am one of the few persons in the whole US that has the capability to actually flow an intake manifold and certify what a port flows.  Very few people actually spend the time to know what their work flows.  There are physical laws at work in airflow that can be quantified, and to say otherwise shows ignorance.  There are dozens of books available that detail flow characteristics and needs for a particular power level.  If you don't know what your equipment is doing, you are just guessing at what is possible.  Talking with Jon Kaase is something that is eye opening, but he has years of experience with a flow bench, and knows what works, so he doesn't rely on flow figures now because of his years of experience.  I can port a head or intake manifold without my flow bench, too, and come mighty close to the optimum port work for that head or intake the first time because of my experience.  I use the flow bench to verify my work.  Some of my customers always want a before and after, which I always try to furnish in print.  Not many folks left who will hand port an iron head or intake, much less give flow numbers on either. 

Fuel distribution, plenum size, port taper, port plenum entrance shaping - has plenty to do with intake porting/improvement.

You must think we are ignorant if we haven't already done this.

Let us take a single plane intake manifold as an example. Make the individual ports bigger and it will flow more on the bench!
Will it make more power? Perhaps more than it was cast?
You ask a question without any proof of your theory, only a "perhaps".  Where is your proof, your flow figures for both the heads and intakes?

[Joe-JDC]

Jay, and everyone else:  After your heads are CNC'd, the flow will come up several cfm, hopefully to the 450-460 cfm range, and then your intake manifolds will be back at ~120%, which will be nearly perfect.  That is why I didn't worry about the flow being a bit much at this point.  If your heads can be improved just 10% with the CNC, then they will be the absolute best FE inline head made.  Joe-JDC

[JERICOGTX]

  If your heads can be improved just 10% with the CNC, then they will be the absolute best FE inline head made.  Joe-JDC

What inline FE head comes even close to the flow numbers of Jay's heads?

As for Flow numbers, an engine is just an air pump, no matter the brand. Flow numbers most definitely are important.

[Dumpling]

Is the flow just ramming in and out? What do the chambers of the heads look like? Too much swirl? Not enough swirl? A straight-shot intake tract may not help with fuel distribution, though at high rpms, probably not desired?  Impressive accomplishments.

[jayb]

You can get a look at the chambers in the thread on page 2 of the Vendor Classifieds, about getting on the list for the head package.  They are a modern chamber, but I have no way of quantifying swirl, so I really don't know about that.  One thing about the chamber in the RE head that I think needs to change is the plug location; it is biased too far towards the exhaust side of the chamber, based on the burn pattern in the chamber and on the pistons.  Fortunately that's a simple fix in the machining programs.  It could be that moving the plug by itself will pick up some power; I guess I'll see at some point...

[Royce]

Another comment on Intake porting:
Most of the time the objective is not to hog out the runners to gain flow. Contouring and smoothing the carb and runner transition areas, smoothing sharp edges, blending and equalizing flow for the runners, and port matching covers most of what is done.. These modifications will almost always pick up air flow without increasing the CSA of the runners.  The manifold then becomes more efficient and provides a smoother flow from carb to head..Almost any manifold can show improved performance with this treatment

[FERoadster]

Not having any input to this idea but curious. How do you find swirl pattern in a head?
 Do you introduce some type of chemical that will deposit on the piston or head? I so is that done on a flow bench or a low RPM running engine on a dyno?
Just wonder. And how did Ford determine the swirl? Of course kind of unlimited engineering resources.
Richard >>> FERoadster

[Katz427]

I saw a demo , from LaVision, a few years ago. Basically you seed the air with tracer particles, and use a pulsed laser, along with a sophisticated computer program. Something the oems use.
This gives you a plot, with tumble and swirl.  Not inexpensive, but if one needs that type of data, and has the resources, it's the cat's meow.

[WConley]

I was able to view and photograph vorticity (swirl) around jet engine afterburner fuel spray bars using smoke.  That was only at low speed.  I think you can do it with reflective particles as well.  Nowadays everybody uses CFD (Computational Fluid Dynamics) software. 

The software has gotten really good at modeling compressible intake flow, even with fuel droplets present.  It's also REALLY expensive and demands lots of computing power to run.  I know Ricardo sells one of the best packages for engine flow analysis.

https://software.ricardo.com/product-families/fluid-dynamics