Author Topic: New carb help  (Read 3224 times)

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BigBlueIron

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New carb help
« on: December 21, 2016, 10:38:47 AM »
Vehicle, 77 F-350 dually, 4.10 rear np435 trans, 400 .03 over unknown cam assuming small rv type, fresh double roller timing set. Duraspark dizzy and ign box with Accel super coil 10* initial. Pulls steady 17" vac @ idle.

 I drive this truck a lot. Last year replaced one head with a good used one due to burned valves and added Edelbrock performer 400 threw BG 625 Jr. on at the time. Had this carb for ever never have liked it, ran that for a year with moderate success.

Last month I bought a factory Holley reman 600 VS with electric choke. stock 6.5 PV. Over all better but I have been struggling with a stumble at part throttle. If I step into it super slow no problem, super fast not bad but under normal acceleration and shifting it will fall all over itself. And even if I just hold it at that throttle position, stop just before or just after its much better. Eventually it will catch itself and go. I have played with the pump shot without much change, tried different base timing with and without vac advance hooked up.

Idles great cruising at 55 is great WOT is great. Just a horrible dead area at 1/4 throttle Seems super lean. This is a mild low compression engine but it does run very strong.

Looking for ideas, maybe a power valve change?  I didn't want to buy an Edelbrock but maybe for an everyday I should have...

thatdarncat

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Re: New carb help
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2016, 11:32:02 AM »
First step is to tell us EXACTLY which Holley 600 you have by posting the "LIST" number stamped on the airhorn. Holley literally made dozens of different 600 vacuum secondary carbs and many were designed more for emission considerations than for performance, some have reverse idle systems and so on. The LIST 1850 is the most popular 600 VS, but there are others. People will be able to give you better advice with all the info.
Kevin Rolph

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BigBlueIron

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Re: New carb help
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2016, 11:45:58 AM »
Sorry I meant to include that in the original post. 0-80457SA

thatdarncat

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Re: New carb help
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2016, 02:43:02 PM »
I haven't worked with that particular carb, but I looked up the basic specs and info in the Holley catalog. It's classified as a "non-emissions" carb, so that is good - I've found the "emissions" carbs can tend to be tricky to tune, and looks to be a decent carb for your applicaton. One difference I saw between your #80457 and the basic #1850 is the #80457 comes with the "black" secondary spring, which is the heaviest, and the #1850 comes with the "plain" spring which is right in the middle. Normally a heavy spring would be what you would want with a heavy vehicle ( like a 1 ton truck ), but in your case with a slightly warmed over engine you may want to consider trying a spring change eventually - but FIRST - have you done anything with the ignition curve in your distributor? That is where I would start my tuning. I've found ignition and carb tuning go hand in hand. Those '70's distributors were set up with the factory emissions systems ( egr valves, air pumps, etc. ) in mind and focused on passing emissions testing regulations and gas mileage, and not what we would consider performance. If your distributor is original, or even a parts store replacement, I would start there. Check what your total timing is, not just the initial timing. Peek through the little window in the distributor plate and look if you can see what advance slot it is set on, there should be two slots, one being used with a small tab visible in the slot and one not used. There will also be a number stamped near the slot, something like "18L" for example  ( there are multiple possibilities ). With the distributor installed on the motor you may have to turn it over slowly by hand until you can view the advance slot. There are also springs in the distributor advance mechanism that control the "curve" that come in different calibrations. To make the best tuning decisions you need all the info on your baseline you can find.
Kevin Rolph

1967 Cougar Drag Car ( under constuction )
1966 7 litre Galaxie
1966 Country Squire 390
1966 Cyclone GT 390
1968 Torino GT 390
1972 Gran Torino wagon
1978 Lincoln Mk V

Drew Pojedinec

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Re: New carb help
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2016, 05:03:31 PM »
Seems like 17inches is on the low end for an rv cam.  Just a thought.

BigBlueIron

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Re: New carb help
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2016, 05:32:07 PM »
Distributor is a parts store reman, from probably 10 years ago. I have not fully mapped my ign curve but I do plan on it, springs ordered on Monday also plan on swapping a adjustable vac advance in that I have laying around.

As of now with 10* initial mechanical pulls in about another 20* at 3200rpm. I need a better timing light anybody recommend one? looking at the MSD one but kinda pricey. needs to work with aftermarket boxes as well.

NIsaacs

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Re: New carb help
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2016, 06:12:01 PM »
Are you using a carb spacer? If yes, what is it?

Nick
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BigBlueIron

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Re: New carb help
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2016, 09:34:53 AM »
no spacer as of yet, plan on using one of those thick heat insulating gaskets in the near future , only 1/4 thick

My427stang

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Re: New carb help
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2016, 03:14:40 PM »
This is pretty common with Street Avengers and other late model Holleys

The only real fix I have seen is modifying an early metering plate to the dimensions (PVCR and IFR) of the current metering plate then using the current jets and power valve

That being said, you have quite a bit of vacuum, you may want to try an 8.5 PV, if it doesn't change anything, then you sorta know it's the transition circuit.

Sometimes a bit higher float level can get the mains on line sooner, and if you just want to mask it, switch to a blue accel pump cam, they seem to hit hard and long, which hides it a bit.

Basically, what I usually see on these carbs, the main is delayed (or the transition circuit peters out) and it falls on it's face.  The early metering blocks seem to do real well to fix it

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Ross
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BigBlueIron

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Re: New carb help
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2016, 11:52:32 AM »
Kind of what I have gathered on the interwebs this is a common issue with these carbs. Why would Holley purposefully do that? ONLY advise they have is more pump shot. Maybe true to a point but doesn't directly address the issue.

I do have the old BG road demon Jr. that I would have no problem scavenging for parts if they would be any better or even work idk. It does have downleg boosters in the secondaries I thought about swapping in, not sure if they would be any benefit. Also an old 3310- 780cfm version but i hate steal from it plan on sending it somewhere for a professional restoration for an unknown future project.

Of the same mind I ordered an assortment of PV's to try out this weekend. I think a 7.5 or 8.5 would help regardless.

Initial plug reading to me showed rich idle lean cruise. Soot on plug base snow white porcelain. Should be better now, these carbs also do not have a choke pull off and the relief notch in the choke plate was not large enough causing momentary dead rich condition until choke plate would start to open.

Plan for the weekend is new air filter assembly 14"x3" raised base, new thick base gasket, and PV swap. See what that does and go from there.

BigBlueIron

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Re: New carb help
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2017, 12:14:54 PM »
Update: Finally got a few minutes in the shop to work on my own stuff. I hate semi's in the winter.

Pulled metering block out and inspected, all looked good blew all passages out with compressed air installed 9.5PV. New 14"x3" raised base air cleaner assembly. Moroso brand, I really like it, well made. New cheapo Mr.Gasket valve cover breather since new air cleaner did not have provisions for breather. Just easier and less hassle then adding a nipple and hose. Also a small adjustment made to pump shot spring.

Did not replace base gasket with thick version as planned, no time and didn't want to change to many things at once, thinking of adding a spacer of sorts with the thick gasket, recommendations? Edel performer 400 dual plane intake.

Results are driveablity is 100% improved, when to op temp I can smash the pedal in all gears from an coasting idle with no hiccup or stumble. Part throttle cruise stumble is almost completely gone but a tiny hiccup every now and then. I believe there is room for improvement in other areas now that may help this.

My gut feeling is it would like a larger carb or at least more fuel all over. Secondaries seem a little slow but no plans to change since I tow with it. Further tuning and plug reading will tell me this.