Author Topic: New flywheel and pistons  (Read 839 times)

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Urgefor

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New flywheel and pistons
« on: August 10, 2023, 10:22:58 PM »
As noted in the subject, I purchased a lightweight flywheel and new set of pistons and sent the rotating assembly (crank, flywheel and bolts, rods, rod bearings, rings, pistons, and damper) to be balanced again.  I can see that the flywheel was bolted to the crankshaft at some point and I think small amounts of filing might have been performed on the pistons.  The part I'm a bit confused by is the rod bearings still being shrink wrapped in their original packaging.  I'm re-using the rings from the previous set of pistons, so I have no way of knowing if their weight was factored in since they were just tied together as a set from each cylinder and were not packaged like the rod bearings. I don't see any markings on the pistons in relation to the connecting rods either (i.e., #1 piston to be used on #1 connecting rod).

It has literally been decades since I had this assembly balanced the first time so I don't remember all of the particulars, but I think I recall particular pistons being paired with particular rods. The other note of interest is that after the machine shop had the assembly for a month (with no contact of any sort), I called to inquire about the progress and had the rotating assembly back in my shop 2 days later. Either my timing is impeccable, or the job was being ignored until an inquiry was made and then fast tracked to completion. The last experience I had with a machine shop doing work on this engine (different one from the shop doing the current work) resulted in missing oil gallery plugs and the rear cam plug being installed backwards. In short, I have no faith in the local shops (all of the veterans have retired) but figured balancing the rotating assembly should be fairly straight forward.

So my question is, should I be concerned about the rotating assembly being balanced properly?  I am inclined to think the answer is yes.

Tunnelwedge

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Re: New flywheel and pistons
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2023, 05:24:10 AM »
Normally a shop will provide a work sheet for the balance job.
To eek out every last spec of tolerance the balance should be exact.
But engines will run fine using what ever fits.
Ford used the Detroit balance on every FE.
The guy selling parts and service will insist on spending money on everything.
The guy in his backyard will cheap out on everything.
I'm the guy in the backyard. ;)
« Last Edit: August 11, 2023, 05:28:17 AM by Tunnelwedge »

blykins

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Re: New flywheel and pistons
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2023, 06:07:25 AM »
Most of the time, we know what a pair of rod bearings will weigh, so we don't bother to open up a new package.  But to answer your question, leaving a pair of rod bearings out of the bobweight could cause some issues, that's 30-35g that's part of the equation on the rotating side. 

What you can do is figure up the bobweight based off of the parts that you have, then just have a shop spin it up real quick to check things.  You don't need to take the balancer, as every FE balancer is 0-balance.  It shouldn't cost you very much at all to do that and it would give you piece of mind. 


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pbf777

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Re: New flywheel and pistons
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2023, 11:35:05 AM »
I think small amounts of filing might have been performed on the pistons.

    Except in rare instances the sum of variation in weight of a typical piston set will fall in the range of 1.5 gr. (a good set) 2.5 gr. (typical) 3+ gr. (not so happy, but not that unusual a set) and even if only needing the lesser sum of material removal for balancing, as it would present, with observation, as notable.   ;)

Quote
I don't see any markings on the pistons in relation to the connecting rods either (i.e., #1 piston to be used on #1 connecting rod).  I don't remember all of the particulars, but I think I recall particular pistons being paired with particular rods.

     In relation to the balancing effort, the reason for matching a particular rod with a particular piston would be because the small end of the rod in weight and the the piston weight are offsetting (i.e. the rod pin-end is light, so one matches it with a piston that is heavy, or vise-a-versa), this theoretically reducing the sum of correction required to bring this reciprocating sum of the overall "bob-weight" value into line.  This is sometimes practiced as a compromise as if the componentry in hand doesn't lend itself (structurally) to the sum of correction required otherwise.  Or unfortunately often, the operator is just trying to reduce the effort in correction required otherwise in the balancing process!    :(

Quote
The part I'm a bit confused by is the rod bearings still being shrink wrapped in their original packaging, so I have no way of knowing if their weight was factored in? 
So my question is, should I be concerned about the rotating assembly being balanced properly? 

Most of the time, we know what a pair of rod bearings will weigh, so we don't bother to open up a new package.  But to answer your question, leaving a pair of rod bearings out of the bobweight could cause some issues, that's 30-35g that's part of the equation on the rotating side. 


     As stated, most shops with any history generally already have the more common bearing weight applications recorded; but do note that the bearings increase in weight in instances were the crankshafts have been turned to an under-size (and the crankshaft throw got lighter!  ???), and if utilizing a "narrowed" or "chamfered" bearing, it gets lighter (but with the increased radii the crankshaft throw, it gets heavier!  ;)); and then also one must realize that an FE crankshaft might be utilizing an FE bearing, or a BBC bearing, maybe Chrysler "Hemi" bearing, even SBC!   :o  So all of this needs to be considered if the shop is falling back on that recorded information vs. just weighing the actually intended bearing, which really probably is the wiser practice when possible.   ;)

     Oh, and just to aid in clarifying things: yes, 30-35gr. is a reasonable range for a single set of FE rod bearings to weigh, but remember that in the standard balancing practice here, there are two bearing sets attached to the singular throw that are included in the typical calculation of the "bob-Weight", so that's a sum of 60-70gr. in the total bob-weight value up for consideration!   :o

     And there is no "quicky-fix" here; you either accept that which you currently have, or choose to have the "revolving" and "reciprocating" assembly re-balanced (yeah I know, hopfully, properly!  ::))!

     Scott.


« Last Edit: August 11, 2023, 11:38:43 AM by pbf777 »

Urgefor

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Re: New flywheel and pistons
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2023, 07:36:55 PM »
I was able to get the bob weight record from the shop.  Also, one of the two packages for the bearings had been opened but placed in the bottom of the package. I didn't see that until I took all of the bearings out of the box, so those did get weighed. I did some quick checks with a scale that will measure down to 2 grams. Unfortunately, the scale starts to deviate an appreciable amount as the weight of the object increases.  I was able to verify, after testing with some calibration weights, it was spot on at 100g and under, .

I checked rings, rod bearings and locks against the record the shop supplied.  Rings were exact. The locks I couldn't really check since my scale goes by 2 gram increments, but weighing multiple locks at a time appeared to be coming in around 3g as recorded. The interesting part was the rod bearings. They recorded 90 for 4 halves, I came up with 80. So I took a trip to the post office with my calibration weights and rod bearings. Their scale was good across the board (unlike mine showing deviation as weight increased) and showed 2.8oz (79.3787g) for the rod bearings as well. 10 gram difference.  Hmmmm......

At this point I'm not going to chase it any further since this won't be a high rpm monster of any sort.  I will say though that providing the customer with information beyond an invoice certainly helps.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2023, 07:26:47 PM by Urgefor »

Heo

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Re: New flywheel and pistons
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2023, 05:48:42 AM »
I was able to get the bob weight record from the shop.  Also, one of the two packages for the bearings had been opened but placed in the bottom of the package. I didn't see that until I took all of the bearings out of the box, so those did get weighed. I did some quick checks with a scale that will measure down to 2 grams. Unfortunately, the scale starts to deviate an appreciable amount as the weight of the object increases.  I was able to verify, after testing with some calibration weights, it was spot on at 100g and under, .

I checked rings, rod bearings and locks against the record the shop supplied.  Rings were exact. The locks I couldn't really check since my scale goes by 2 gram increments, but weighing multiple locks at a time appeared to be coming in around 3g as recorded. The interesting part was the rod bearings. They recorded 90 for 4 halves, I came up with 80. So I took a trip to the post office with my calibration weights and rod bearings. Their scale was good across the board (unlike mine showing deviation as weight increased) and showed 2.8oz (79.3787g) for the rod bearings as well. 10 gram difference.  Hmmmm......

At this point I'm not going to chase it any further since this won't be a high rpm monster of any sort.  I will say though that providing the customer with information beyond an invoice certainly helps.

Maybe they added 10g for the wheight of the oil in the bearing/crankpin when engine running



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Urgefor

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Re: New flywheel and pistons
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2023, 09:21:35 PM »
A possibility for sure.  Wouldn't be surprising to see machinists handle factoring in the oil in different ways. To me it would make sense to add that in the "oil" section of the record though.