Author Topic: Runout on Flywheel  (Read 9285 times)

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JimNolan

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Runout on Flywheel
« on: October 09, 2015, 03:38:17 PM »
I checked the run out of the face of my flywheel after they got through resurfacing it today. Using a plunge indicator located 6 inches from the center of the flywheel, I had a TIR of .010". I'm using a 11" clutch disc. Should the surface of the flywheel be flatter than that. I read .001" per inch from the center was permissible. I'm asking you guys cause you can give me real life experience. Will I experience any problem with it not being perfect. Thanks, Jim

Nightmist66

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Re: Runout on Flywheel
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2015, 06:58:46 PM »
That .010" sounds a bit much to me. When I measured my billet steel Ford Racing unit, I set the indicator at the very edge almost and got a max of .001-.0015" runout. I felt warm and fuzzy with that. With .010", you may have clutch problems. I would think it would chatter pretty good on engagement due to that much runout. May possibly get a vibration in the pedal from the throwout bearing wobbling. Is it possible that a piece of dirt or something is cocking the flywheel on the crank? Do you have another flywheel to quick slap on and find out if the runout is in the flywheel or the crank?

Just thinking out loud, I wonder how much it would throw the balance off with the clutch and pressure plate "wobbling" on there, even though ten thou isn't much.
Jared



66 Fairlane GT 390 - .035" Over 390, Wide Ratio Top Loader, 9" w/spool, 4.86

JimNolan

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Re: Runout on Flywheel
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2015, 08:09:43 PM »
Nightmist66,
Don't want to alarm you but the flywheel I have is a Ford Racing Billet Steel FMS-M-6375-P428. It's got about 20K miles or so on it with a few drag races under it's belt. But, the point is, the guy that did the grinding on the flywheel for me said he took almost .040 off it to get it right again. He even left a portion of the flywheel unground past the pressure plate mounting bolts. The place he left unground was where I set "0" on my indicator and his "high point" opposite "my 0" was .010" too low. So, if nothing else, I know this flywheel was warped .030" anyway. This is a 29LB hunk of steel billet that I didn't think was suppose to fold up like a cheap cardboard box from Ford Racing.

Nightmist66

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Re: Runout on Flywheel
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2015, 09:48:22 PM »
The flywheel I have is part# M-6375-N427. Huh, maybe I should take another peek at mine before it goes to the track. I only have about 150-200mi on it right now.
Jared



66 Fairlane GT 390 - .035" Over 390, Wide Ratio Top Loader, 9" w/spool, 4.86

JimNolan

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Re: Runout on Flywheel
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2015, 05:56:27 AM »
You won't have anything happen to it in 200 mi I don't think. I've got about 30 drag races on mine since new and a bunch of miles though. Mid way through this flywheel I had the transmission out for something and I replaced the clutch disc. It was about 1/2 way worn out. The flywheel was perfect then. My second clutch disc didn't get a lot of miles put on it before I started drag racing it again, and McLeod said they wanted 500 miles of regular driving put on the clutch before you started abusing it. It's got a Kevlar-aluminum flywheel side with an organic pressure plate side. By all means, listen to them. I had very few miles on the 2nd clutch and it eat at the flywheel.
You've not got the problem I do. My flywheel is balanced to the crank. You just don't go down and order a new one and pop it on. I'll never own another externally balanced engine assembly again.

runthatjunk

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Re: Runout on Flywheel
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2015, 03:50:14 PM »
" The place he left unground was where I set "0" on my indicator and his "high point" opposite "my 0" was .010" too low. "

That comment makes me think the machinist screwed up.  Can't say if it will cause problems but sure won't help any
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JimNolan

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Re: Runout on Flywheel
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2015, 04:21:48 PM »
I put the flywheel on a level surface that set on the mounting face of the flywheel only. I spun it and ended up with .007" TIR on an 11" diameter. I then indicated the crank flange and it came out perfect. I called my machinist ( the one that does my engine work ) and he said .007" would be OK and I'd never feel a problem. There were no burn marks on my flywheel and with the amount of material they said they took off it to make it flat I assume when McLeod says to not dump the clutch on their setup until you've got 500 miles of regular driving, they mean it. I'm using the same clutch and pressure plate as I started out with. When I first got the Tremec 5 speed I went through Mike Forte for the kit as he more or less started putting the Tremec's behind FE Ford engine's. That's the clutch he recommended and sent with the kit.
Thanks guys for your comments, I'm back on the road again. A little wiser now.

HolmanMoodyStroppeGang

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Re: Runout on Flywheel
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2015, 05:02:34 PM »
Hello Jim

It is not fun to pay good money for machine work that is way off

Now, people run all kind of parts and combos and so on and this run out is going to work, but there is no way I would run it in any race car, or really, on a hot street set up, unless, you have to make some cruise or deadline or so on, and can fix it later

Granted, as the disc seats,it will point load and try to knock down the high spot slowly, but it will elevate the friction and wear on the egged portion that contacts the high spot first


The chatter will happen, and you may feel it, I have felt chatter with less run out

The cost that concerns me it pulsing the cranks thrust bearing unnecessarily

And the chatter, will try to wiggle the crank forward and back for no good reason, and the same pulses will try to wiggle or distort the pilot bushing or bearing

This same run out will wear the front bearing in the trans a little faster too

Here is what I suspect

The machinist simply set your flywheel on a big belt sanding style surfacer, not, a true flywheel surfacer. There is a universal surfacer in use out there that is really not famous for precision results. If this shop has a belt sander, with a belt about 3 feet wide, and the working area is about 4 feet long, that is your problem.

I have seen guys take a wheel to a few shops, that use the wide belt sander, and those things mess up a lot of parts.   I have seen 'finished' heads, warped, intakes and so on, tapered, and flywheels re surfaced to actually have a wedge ground in to them.

It has to do with how you set the part on the belt, or, pull it off. Also, there is no uniform down feed in case the part has hard and soft spots. Flywheels, used, have MANY hard and soft spots. 

I suspect that whatever machine was used, took much more off of the soft areas while dressing the hard areas slower, thus less

I have never seen a real Blanchard grinder, or overhead surface grinder do this

I usually have the guys take our flywheels to McCleod because they are close by, or, 2 other places

What works for us, is the machine that holds the flywheel by clamping, or a magnetic table, then slowly spins it.

Above, is a hardened fine grinding stone, that has coolant fed down, so the flywheel turns as the grinder traverses the part evenly

If the flange is true, the wheel will run out less than 001

Now this has happened in the past

Check the flange not just for run out, but burrs

My crank guys are good, they take a truing pass on the flange, just kiss it and listen

But if it runs out 000, check this

Take a flat stone, like an Ozark Stone, or, a fine knife sharpening stone.....

I use a flat stone that never gets used for a knife or scissors, because that use makes them a lot less flat.   So, spray the flange with WD40 or equivalent, then patiently and evenly stone your way around the crank flange

Look and feel the stone and look for any burrs that become shiny and bright around the threads

Depending on who did what on prior disassembly/assembly, handling,,,,,a small burr on the flange can actually kick the wheel, to run out 3,4,5 thou

I have stoned a crank, not done by us or off of a racer or project, unknown origin stuff, and fixed this a little

I recall having to stone a flange 3 or 4 times to get it true years back

If you feel no burrs, see no burrs, I'd bring the wheel to a shop that has a true or good surfacer

A worn machine in any machine shop can yield bad tolerances too

Seen very pretty, shiny, well painted machines give poor tolerances due to worn ways, a bad bushing and so on

Really sorry you have to deal with this but it is not your fault

If it is worth doing, it is worth doing right

017 is a lot of run out

Personally and with all due respect, no offense intended at all, and in kindness , I don't like it

Most big machine shops, including those for Diesel trucks, have the correct machine

And for the new guys

Places like McCleod and others do another cool thing on a used wheel

They press off that starter ring for you

Old school was to reverse it, press it back on and wear the fresh teeth like the older ones

Cooler yet is to press a brand new one on.  Fair price there is low, 30 or so bucks around here, for a good guy deal

Again, I am sure guys have run more, maybe a lot more, it just depends how long you want to run it and well you want it to perform and live

If we had to make the next round at the drags, and this popped up? Slam it all back together and make the next round, fix it after the race

best of luck

Sorry but I just don't accept specs that far out of tolerance

Too easy to fix or do right to begin with

McCleod and others will do a nice surface job by mail too

PS  I was very reluctant to write this, not being a negatron or fussy,,,just never run more than about 001 to 0015, and many are just dead nuts,,,,,,000       0

Now last thought   make dead sure the crank end play it not throwing your number off?

Load the crank forward or back and re check maybe



« Last Edit: October 11, 2015, 05:07:56 PM by HolmanMoodyStroppeGang »

JimNolan

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Re: Runout on Flywheel
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2015, 07:54:36 PM »
HolmanMoodyStroppeGang,
I know this took you time to write and I'm really appreciate you doing it for me. I will call around tomorrow to Ft. Wayne and South Bend and ask if they have the machines to do the job right. I had the engine out to replace a leaky Cam Plug and while I was there lifted the crank to replace the rear main oil seal also. The main bearings looked good. I'll get the flywheel re-surfaced just to make sure I keep it that way. Thanks again.

KMcCullah

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Re: Runout on Flywheel
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2015, 09:10:04 PM »
Have you indicated the flange on the crank? A little run out there will make a lot of run out on the outer edge of the flywheel. Look for burrs, gunk etc. too.
Kevin McCullah


JimNolan

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Re: Runout on Flywheel
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2015, 08:15:54 AM »
KMcCullah,
Yes I did, it came out .000". That was the first thing I thought of because I'd heard that people had trouble with Eagle Cranks. I could kick myself in the ass every time I think I could have had an internally balanced Scat crank from Barry's shop. I'm debating even putting the engine back in my 57. I drive that car all the time, go all over the country in it and drag race it maybe 4 weekends in a year with an occasional street encounter. The guys that put a belt sander to my flywheel said they took out almost .040" to get it flat. If that's the case, why would I want the damn thing back in my car if I'm afraid to drag race it every now and then.

HolmanMoodyStroppeGang

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Re: Runout on Flywheel
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2015, 01:02:24 PM »
Thanks Jim

Please call me Tom, friends do.

I had another thought because this bugged me and I felt bad for you.

If the guy DID use a rotating grinder....you know, a darned burr, on the BACK of our paprt could also be a fly in the ointment, you know?

I would set that wheel on a bench, under good light, spray the back with CRC or WD40, and slowly flat stone it

look close. see and feel for a raised burr or defect.   You can hear them and feel them.

I bet you may find a darned burr on the back, that cocked the front, as she got a massage...LOL   you know,  cleaned up, surfaced,,,haha?    If a burr causes the part to not register dead flat, this too could be a cause.

It is something odd and I feel bad for you

Also, for the record, when I respond it is a general, catch all manner and with total respect to everybody's level of gear headed ness.....sorry     Saying skill bugged me

I never know here who knows what.

I learned over my 2 years on and off these blogs that all questions are not the same.  I am only trying to say thanks to FORD and HMS by being on a forum.  Just trying to help , never harm.

Simply thinking out loud as if the issue is on our shop floor.

But I just want to be clear, when sharing some stuff online......I never know who is who, and who has what machinery.  Never know how well tooled their shop is either. Never know how deep their tool chests are.

I get the nicest emails, like, thanks a lot, then,,, my closest machine shop is in,,,XX  city.  That is  250 miles away. I called them and they are not sure if they can help, or, they do not have the tool or tooling, etc.

OR,  more often.....who should I send it too?   These forums are great there,,,,,   It seems some nice person will chime in and say, go see Fred in DesMoines or whatever.  You know?

Rarely, a guy will gripe, I been workin on cars 30 years, and know most of what you wrote....

problem is,,,,,this was not stated in the question or obvious by the way the question was asked....

So I just do what I can, so that any new guy, or old guy trying new methods, or techniques might get it done or maybe simply ponder.

Then at times, I feel bad because where we are, we have a lot of vendors and specialty vendors within a close drive.  Known many 40-50 years.  We can trust them.   It dawned on me such is not the case on these boards, so, I want to say A plus plus plus to the guys making all of this patient extra effort to take the time to do nice work, by long distance, mail, and by tooling their own race car shop of sorts.

In your case, shucks, you take all this time to do a great job blueprinting an engine

The goal of blueprinting is what? in part..... Making the specs a lot tighter, more even, more correct, and/or more efficient?    So to blueprint a sub assembly, and know the OEM spec is little to no run out, and get a mess of slop despite doing a patient, real nice job,,,that makes ya upset

You will get her, I'd get my coins back from Mr Wobble Shaft.   Ask Mr Runout for a refund or something.

'Better luck next time' I'd wish you sir....

A plus plus for attention to detail and precision

That is great

Nice work Ford man

You''ll get 'er....    And when you slowly release the clutch pedal and she feels smooth as silk, you'll feel better

No doubt you will extend the clutch life too
« Last Edit: October 12, 2015, 03:34:34 PM by HolmanMoodyStroppeGang »

JimNolan

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Re: Runout on Flywheel
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2015, 03:53:01 PM »
Well, I checked my old 390 flywheel to see what it was like. It measured .0005" TIR.  I loaded up everything ( both flywheels) and took it 55 miles to Ft. Wayne to a place that does my driveshaft work. They've been in business since 1966. They guy let me come back and watch it being ground on a Blanchard machine with all the coolant being poured on the surface while it was grinding. Sure enough, he was taking metal off in one spot for a while. Really looked good after he got through. Then he ground the 390 flywheel and it too was touching on one side for awhile. But, these guys knew what they were doing.
Took the flywheel back to the hanger and put it on my level block and spun the flywheel around checking every 90 degrees at a 12" diameter. I had .004" TIR. I never checked the 390 flywheel, don't want to check it.
I threw everything down, turned the lights out and when home and had a sandwich. Don't know if I'll go back out there this week.

427Fastback

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Re: Runout on Flywheel
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2015, 04:45:20 PM »
" The place he left unground was where I set "0" on my indicator and his "high point" opposite "my 0" was .010" too low. "

That comment makes me think the machinist screwed up.  Can't say if it will cause problems but sure won't help any

He probably left in unground for a reason..It is called a witness mark.It is used as a reference mark to show the customer you took off as little as needed.The customer would have no idea usually how much you machined off if there is no witness mark.It is common practice and quite often requested...
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JimNolan

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Re: Runout on Flywheel
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2015, 05:10:02 PM »
Russ,
I'm so tired of trying to do the right thing and ending up with less than I pay for I can't hardly stand it. I just wish I had a machine shop. I built my own 215 mph all metal airplane and rebuilt the IO-320 Lycoming engine that went in it. I put all the IFR avionics in it and flew that airplane trouble free for 1400 hrs. and 14 years. It really pisses me off knowing I can learn and do anything and I have to trust other people in a field I'm not that familiar with. I feel like I'm stuck out here in the boonies with tractor mechanics. I'll probably wish I hadn't said that but I'm a little disgusted right now.

KMcCullah

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Re: Runout on Flywheel
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2015, 05:17:26 PM »
Took the flywheel back to the hanger and put it on my level block and spun the flywheel around checking every 90 degrees at a 12" diameter. I had .004" TIR.

Jim- I don't understand how your measuring the run out of your flywheels. Maybe a granite surface plate is what your describing?  The only way I've ever checked the face run out of a flywheel is by having it installed on the crank that it was going to be running on. Before you shoot the grinder I would suggest bolting it on the crank that it's going to be running on and checking the run out that way. 
« Last Edit: October 12, 2015, 05:19:29 PM by KMcCullah »
Kevin McCullah


JimNolan

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Re: Runout on Flywheel
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2015, 05:44:35 PM »
KMcCullah,
I've done that, comes out the same. My crank is good. This is the way I check it. I've got a 4" X 4" steel block that I machined smooth when I was working. I place the center of the flywheel on that and draw a circle inside the flywheel flange onto that chunk of steel to keep the flywheel centered as I rotate it. I place a 1" plunge indicator with magnetic base on a plate of steel beside the flywheel with the indicator on the flywheel. I rotate the flywheel to different degrees getting my results. It's foolproof and the results are duplicated no matter how many revolutions I make with the flywheel. That part of checking it isn't rocket science.
BTW: The second guy that ground it said it had been ground on a Blanchard also. He could tell by the marks. One thing I did notice about the two grindings, the first guy put a super smooth finish on the flywheel, the second guy left it somewhat more rough.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2015, 05:48:42 PM by JimNolan »

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Re: Runout on Flywheel
« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2015, 09:10:14 PM »
My concern would also be with balance because a flywheel is suppose to be neutral balanced and now you may have .010 + on one side. I would think it should be pretty much parallel front and back face running true with the make up mounting face.  I'd have it checked and maybe recorded by them before you take that long drive again.  Somebody messed up; Good catch

HolmanMoodyStroppeGang

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Mic it
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2015, 11:06:29 PM »
Had another thought for you Jim, for when the radiator cools down....I get that one

It wouldn't hurt to mic around the flywheel, to check the actual height or thickness, width, you know.

I'd use this as a double check to look for clues. Just measure from the machined face to the back of the wheel, maybe do it every inch or 2 to start

A nice tenth indicating micrometer, not calipers is what I would try. 

We have a guy who can also regrind the register area

Again, no way that you are getting crank shaft end play wandering in and out?

Wedge the wheel against  the bellhousing ears on the block with a tapered hardwood block maybe , creat a slight drag as you turn the wheel,,,push the crank back, or at least deflect the assembly consistently as you measure with a big screwdriver, etc.


Now you measured the crank flange run out, did you use a big faced tenth indicating indicator?

I'd look close there, and stone the areas I discussed

One good burr can kick a flywheel out of true, no doubt

Nice work

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Re: Runout on Flywheel
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2015, 12:04:16 AM »
Before I made that 50 mile drive over there I checked my 390 cast internally balance flywheel the same way. I came out with .0005" TIR run out using same procedure. It had been laying around a few years and the face was discolored so I thought I'd get it resurfaced also. After the guy resurfaced the 410 flywheel he washed the table and his spacer that he put under the flywheel real good, mounted the flywheel, tapped it around until it turned concentric, locked it down and started grinding. I heard a chirp-chirp-chirp as the wheel began grinding and my heart sank. I knew then his Blanchard was off or I was off on the flatness I'd found on that flywheel. Sure enough, this morning I found out it when I measured it showed .002" TIR.
I've decided to put the 390 back in the 57 Fairlane  and I'll be using the cast flywheel the way it is. It would be nice if it had come out perfect but unless someone decides to drive my car and let the clutch out to where it only engages .001" into the flywheel I can't see trying to make it any better than what it is. And, if someone could ride the clutch that close on my flywheel I'd jerk them out of the car and beat them over the head with a feather duster anyway.
In all seriousness, I'm tired of messing with it and I don't care what it looks like on the crank. They don't resurface it on the crank. I did the best I could, the guy resurfacing did the best he could and I can't see driving all over the country having it reground until it has the thickness of cigarette paper trying to get it perfect.
If I ever use the 410 again or sell it I'll make sure to get the flywheel sent to another state to get it resurfaced.
Thaks guys, I'm just tired of dealing with it. The flywheel I'm using at .002" TIR at 12" diameter isn't going to kill me and McLeod said if I'd use the 500 miles they recommend driving it instead of racing it as soon as the new clutch is installed,  the flywheel wouldn't get eat up to begin with.