Author Topic: Long day and tired, could use a little help  (Read 4475 times)

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Mbowling

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Re: Long day and tired, could use a little help
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2021, 06:45:23 AM »
If you haven’t tore it apart yet. Start it up and seal off all of the oil caps, pcv holes except one.  Start it up and put your hand over the remaining oil cap  hole. If it’s sucked an intake gasket you will feel vacuum in the crankcase
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AmerigoHauler

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Re: Long day and tired, could use a little help
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2021, 10:22:16 AM »
If you haven’t tore it apart yet. Start it up and seal off all of the oil caps, pcv holes except one.  Start it up and put your hand over the remaining oil cap  hole. If it’s sucked an intake gasket you will feel vacuum in the crankcase
After you mentioned this I remembered when I was working at a rental store in the 70's that we had a Ford F-600 that did this. Took us a while to figure that one out.

So, this morning I put the carb back on, refilled the coolant and tried it. No vacuum at the oil fill on the left cover with the PCV hole plugged on the other cover. Nothing at all. I let it run until it was warmed up and i noticed that I wasn't getting any smoke or "wind" out of the only opening. I would think if I had a piston or blowby problem I would see smoke with that being the only opening to the crank case. Oh well, I'm letting it cool off now and I will pull the intake.

Thanks, Erich
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allrightmike

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Re: Long day and tired, could use a little help
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2021, 11:28:34 AM »
A friend of mine had a smoking condition on a brand X and tried two or three sets of intake gaskets, no change. The culprit turned out to be a crack in one of the intake ports in the head. Something to check for.

gt350hr

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Re: Long day and tired, could use a little help
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2021, 01:04:38 PM »
  At least you have narrowed it down to a specific cylinder ( and only one!). Could be valve stem seal /lack of / valve guide too. That eliminates the PCV valve.
    Randy

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Re: Long day and tired, could use a little help
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2021, 01:34:07 PM »
Just curious if you used the Felpro Print-O-Seal intake gaskets? They are prone to tearing at the O ring around the ports and allowing oil to be sucked into the ports, and they tend to start separating on the end cylinders first. Certainly wouldn't be the first, or even the hundredth time that has happened.
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AlanCasida

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Re: Long day and tired, could use a little help
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2021, 03:55:02 PM »
I had something similar happen to the 428 I had in my Galaxie. It used so much oil there was oil residue in the tail pipes at the back of the car. I ultimately decided it was sucking oil through my PCV valve. I was running a hi volume oil pump with stock rocker arms and no restrictors. I think it was getting too much oil to the top of the motor. I ended up replacing the the high volume oil pump with a standard unit and the problem went away. I may have changed the intake gaskets too, not sure. It was a long time ago. 

AmerigoHauler

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Re: Long day and tired, could use a little help
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2021, 07:59:05 PM »
Just curious if you used the Felpro Print-O-Seal intake gaskets? They are prone to tearing at the O ring around the ports and allowing oil to be sucked into the ports, and they tend to start separating on the end cylinders first. Certainly wouldn't be the first, or even the hundredth time that has happened.
The Intake gaskets are Edelbrock 7224. I have read some negatives on these.

Ok, on with the teardown. I found the 2 right rear bolts where not as tight as the rest. These would be the ones by my problem cylinder. They where not loose but they where very easy to start turning out. The rest where much harder to break loose.

The Edelbrock gasket seems to be some sort of multilayer gasket. Some of it stuck to the heads and some to the manifold. It didn't look as bad as I was hoping ;D but the gasket around #4 was wet with oil and was definitely passing oil thru.  I just kinda figured the gasket would look a lot worse with the crazy oil consumption I have going on. Although, vacuum is a powerful force.

I was happy that I found no other issues with the engine while tearing it down to this point.

I will start with clean up and reassembling tomorrow.

I do have 2 questions.

I have a set of Felpro MS 90145 intake gaskets on hand. Are these considered good?

Also I was thinking of doing a leak down test. Does the piston have to be at TDC or does it not matter since the rockers are off and all valves are closed.

Thanks again for all the input, Erich
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frnkeore

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Re: Long day and tired, could use a little help
« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2021, 01:04:54 AM »
If you have a compression gauge handy, I would do that before going any further. It's a easy, quick check and if it was me, it would ease my mind, before bolting the intake back on.

« Last Edit: July 10, 2021, 11:20:32 AM by frnkeore »
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blykins

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Re: Long day and tired, could use a little help
« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2021, 05:39:40 AM »
Before you bolt that intake on, make sure that:

1.  The flanges are at the right angle and the flanges are straight/flat.
2.  No head gasket tabs are sticking up high enough to hit the intake and keep it from sitting down all the way.
3.  Use a sealant on *both* sides of the intake gasket.  I use a very thin layer of Dow Corning 732 silicone on each side. 
4.  The MS90145 gasket will work.  It's not my favorite, but it hasn't ever given me problems.  I prefer a Mr. Gasket 202A for a MR and a 206G for a LR.
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NIsaacs

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Re: Long day and tired, could use a little help
« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2021, 06:54:46 AM »
I would not reassemble anything without checking the bad hole. Generally, it is wishful thinking, for something simple, with that much oil use. Almost always a piston, especially if it is cast aluminum. They don't stand up to pre-ignition, something the FE's are subject to, over several years of use.
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1964Fastback

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Re: Long day and tired, could use a little help
« Reply #25 on: July 10, 2021, 08:18:19 AM »
The compression test could be done with the intake still off, right?  Just put the pushrods and rockers back on and take the plugs out?

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machoneman

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Re: Long day and tired, could use a little help
« Reply #26 on: July 10, 2021, 08:35:56 AM »
The compression test could be done with the intake still off, right?  Just put the pushrods and rockers back on and take the plugs out?

Pat

Yes it can be done as you stated.
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Re: Long day and tired, could use a little help
« Reply #27 on: July 10, 2021, 11:40:15 AM »
Also I was thinking of doing a leak down test. Does the piston have to be at TDC or does it not matter since the rockers are off and all valves are closed.


     I would just skip the task of the required reassembly of the valve train in order to do a compression test and just follow your original instinct of doing the leak-down test, as it will generally provide greater evidence of any problems. 

     Generally, one would want the piston at the top of the bore as this is where the greatest sum of wear to the block bore will be evident and provide the most accurate insight as to the overall condition, though this is a little more challenging as one will need to place the piston pretty darn close to T.D.C. each time, otherwise the air pressure applied will push the piston down the bore, sometimes quite abruptly (don't leave the turning wrench on the crank shout!  :o )!  But if one where chasing just piston and ring component issues (i.g. broken rings and/or piston ring lands) it won't make any difference.   

     It is actually easier to do the leak-down test with the valve train disconnected, as one wants to be sure both valves are closed anyway; and if one detects evidence of leakage thru a valve, then one can more easily, with say a soft-metal drift and hammer, rap on the valve tip to attempt to upset any particulate material (i.g. carbon) that may if only be temporarily be not permitting the valve to fully seat.      ;)

     Also, not so much with broken rings but rather with failed piston ring lands, the sealing capability may vary depending on the luck-of-the-draw as to the ability of the segmented land section to perhaps if intermittently to provide support to the ring(s), so sometimes in suspect instances we have found that double testing at both top and bottom travel positions may reveal something askew, or just more confidence in the observation.    8)

     Scott.


AmerigoHauler

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Re: Long day and tired, could use a little help
« Reply #28 on: July 10, 2021, 11:55:21 AM »
This morning I saw the posts about the compression test. I didn't have time to throw the rockers back on but I figured I had time to do a leak down test.

I ended up with:
Cyl #1-17%
Cyl #2-16%
Cyl #3-16%
Cyl #4-15%
Cyl #5-16%
Cyl #6-15%
Cyl #7-16%
Cyl #8-28%

The last one, #8, didn't surprise me because it read lower when I put the new heads on the used engine. That was 5 or 6 years ago.

That's all I had time for this morning. Maybe get more done tonight.

Still want to check the manifold surface for straightness.



Also I was thinking of doing a leak down test. Does the piston have to be at TDC or does it not matter since the rockers are off and all valves are closed.


     I would just skip the task of the required reassembly of the valve train in order to do a compression test and just follow your original instinct of doing the leak-down test, as it will generally provide greater evidence of any problems. 

     Generally, one would want the piston at the top of the bore as this is where the greatest sum of wear to the block bore will be evident and provide the most accurate insight as to the overall condition, though this is a little more challenging as one will need to place the piston pretty darn close to T.D.C. each time, otherwise the air pressure applied will push the piston down the bore, sometimes quite abruptly (don't leave the turning wrench on the crank shout!  :o )!  But if one where chasing just piston and ring component issues (i.g. broken rings and/or piston ring lands) it won't make any difference.   

     It is actually easier to do the leak-down test with the valve train disconnected, as one wants to be sure both valves are closed anyway; and if one detects evidence of leakage thru a valve, then one can more easily, with say a soft-metal drift and hammer, rap on the valve tip to attempt to upset any particulate material (i.g. carbon) that may if only be temporarily be not permitting the valve to fully seat.      ;)

     Also, not so much with broken rings but rather with failed piston ring lands, the sealing capability may vary depending on the luck-of-the-draw as to the ability of the segmented land section to perhaps if intermittently to provide support to the ring(s), so sometimes in suspect instances we have found that double testing at both top and bottom travel positions may reveal something askew, or just more confidence in the observation.    8)

     Scott.



I see this posted while I was typing my reply. Perfect timing :)

Thanks again all, Erich

Erich Weber
1974 F350 Super Camper Special
2004 Mercury Marauder

pbf777

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Re: Long day and tired, could use a little help
« Reply #29 on: July 10, 2021, 08:10:16 PM »

Cyl #8-28%



     And was the bulk of the leakage determined to be thru the intake valve, the exhaust valve, or into the crankcase?    ???

     Scott.