Hi Pal
I tried to read a lot of these posts and it has been kind of fun. I am happy for you, and want this engine to be awesome.
Now, I could say general things, or specific things, we raced these guys and won a lot with Ford, and later. Many guys who read this stuff did too, and I see that they are trying to lend a hand. That just makes me smile.
I hope that a lot of guys give you input, and it always makes me smile even more, when a new SOHC comes back 'on line',,,to put the hurt on those 'other' guys..
I have some questions, and I will try to get back as well, and email me if you like, but it takes some time for me to get back when busy.
OK, how many engines have you built before ? What kind, for what style use.? I ask, because you list tools that you needed, so maybe this is a first engine?
I applaud you,,,because many guys had to build and build, to graduate up, to this level of race engine. But you be patient, you can do a good job. Take your time please.
And do you have access to a machine shop? Do you know how to turn and mill for example? Have a pal close by to help there? This can be a big help. Many guys here know how a true,,,machine shop engine, often has an edge.
We pre assembled many things, in a big mahine shop, to modify or confirm dimensions, then, it got re cleaned, and went back, to the clean engine rooms. So take the time,,,,turn that bushing, surface grind this or that, fit it as well as you can.
Now I had other questions, so I kind of roughed out an essay. I want to encourage you. So all I write, is positive, and constructive, to stimulate your thinking, and maybe suggest how it is done in a professional race engine shop, or, in a basic at home build too.
Many race winning, and even record setting Hot Rods, used to come from a nice, well tolled garage made into a shop of sorts. Who helps you, and who your vendors and resources are can be key..
Also,,to give you a time and skil estimate
I'd say, out West, to get a cammer built, by a race engine shop, and few are real real hip on a SOHC,,,the going fee begines at 5,000...and goes up to over 10,000, all day
I can send a 390 to get overhauled,,,,the assembly labor may be 500....get it?
The reason is, in part, to do it 'nice', you may mock the engine up a few times, to finesse many dimensions, and also to select fit (often swap them from place to place for the best over all fit)..on the pistons, bearings and so on.
In your case, you may be sending the parts out, for further machining,,,you know once you check it all.
Used parts can help,, for example, mock up main or rod bearings, so you save the brand new parts, for the final assembly...used head gaskets can be handy for example, when the heads go on and off to do the steps. Use the new ones, last.
So, I'd think about that big fee, to get it pro built,,,because to me, it says, a lot of time, and patience, and details, adds up. And the level of skill, time, and tools required,,,justifies that fee. For you, a lot of time, and trial, will be the work by which you save this fee. And you can say you did it,,,with pals helping,,,sounds fun..
So be slow, check and double check. Acquire and borrow more tools...you can do it !
Don't get scared,,but it is true....some pass on a SOHC,,,for a first time build, because they race or do a lot of Chevies, or Dodges, and know there are a lot of little tricks to a SOHC, that may 'bite' a guy who is used to fast and dirty small block Chevy assembly
You will do fine, be patient.
And on the other end,,,some builders let you build it, hurt it, then come back to them, to pay up, and not question them. I have seen this a few times too. They get silent, let a guy do it wrong. You are very lucky, to have the web and a lot of good guys to ask stuff of....like a car club,,,how neat.
Ok, just a general impression...for reference maybe,,to ponder...
I guess I'd next say...are you going to built it,,,in one of 3 ways. Maybe set a goal.
On a street car, cleanliness, and precision can yield durabilty. The pay off can be,,,a thrown together FE,,,can suffer low oil pressure some times,,,,a precise one, will have solid, good oil pressure,,,,for example. Both will run, one will live better and be harder to hurt. The other, may die too soon. BUT,,,if you just cruise a bit,,,and dont race,,,you can get away with a lot of things,,too,,,so that is nice.
When we raced these for FORD,,,the discipline was an ever increasing level of tricks, to finely coax out every possible ponie, and to do very exacting, precise work....so to win, and live,,,that discipline, given an unlimited budget,,,is beyond what you need maybe.
You are fortunate,,,we had to make a lot of what you can now buy,,,so cool...
Shucks, I would measure 5,6,7 sets of rod bearings, mark them all, then swap in and out the best set, to get every rod clearance, perfectly the same....to the tenth,,,0001....on the thoery, the oil bleed rate would be more uniform,,,I could go on and on about building it, super fussy.
You may want to go to this level, to know more about that fine of a build,,,to acquire a discipline,,,but, you do not have to at all,,,,on a pump gas FE,,,for fun..
If you see a future, in assembling race engines,,,and want it to maybe become a career, then you do that,,,you try to do top shelf, exacting, wanna be perfect work. For this goal, to cruise, it is your call.
If you want to try to go 60s-70s Drag Style,,,I'd say...
On all of the blown SOHCs we did, or raced on Nitro,,,,once the short block is blueprinted,,,you know, valve to piston, cam timing, clearances, and so on, the block is known to be sqaure,,,crank is tru, indexed, etc.....you can just feed it bearings, pistons and rings, and more, gaskets, whatever,,,,and the tight, ultra precise clearances, can be less vital, since you run 60 or 70 straight weight oil, barely warm the thing, then nail it for 8,7,6 seconds,,,,as built then. This style of maintenance, falls back a lot, on the precise, original work in many ways.
The 60-70s Pro Stock SOHC's,,,the fast ones, that I was around, helped, worked on,,,,,they were generally, very precisely built, and very refined, and very dialed in, and very well tuned, round by round. You even adjusted the cam tension between rounds some time,,to move the cams...for a tiny edge, if the track and weather was there,,,and if you needed it...to pick up a tick. Dyno Don, and Dan Nowak, were really good at these tricks, both were close pals...who I worked with. Such guys had so many passes with these cars, as did master like Earl Wade,,,they learned a lot, and knew a whole lot. Earl, was the man boy,,he was a Cammer genius,,,and he sure should have done a book. His SOHC,,,'special tools' alone, might fill a book...just to build and service these mills. Very precisely.
So maybe precise, and clean, and well checked, is fine. You say your goal is to cruise..OK. That makes me happy,,,you have a big safety margin.
To just cruise? Shucks...you will be baby-ing it maybe,,,so,,,some of the hair splitting may never amount to a bunch for ya....you are not trying to win a race, championship, set a record,,,so,,that is nice kind of...you may stress less...and have more fun.
Now for an essay from a lunch break,,,for fun. You have 100 good engine men here to help, the typing is the drag,,,,haha. I hope they share a bunch too.....I think you will do well.
######## OK, this is a draft bud,,,,spit out some topics,,,quickly, just for fun...
Hello....
I believe we met on the other Forum, concerning a timing chain issue?
In any event....
Welcome to the Cammer club,,,we raced these engines for a long time and honed on them a lot to try to win for Ford,,,little step by step, tricks that helped, tricks that were no help,,,,but for a fun engine,,, you are going to have fun.
This engine was the class of the field,,,,and is still a great way to make power...
They can still push a heavy car into the 8s.....set up to scream....
Nice job collecting it all too.
I read a lot of your thread, so, here are some ideas,
I may have missed your replies in a few places,,,from memory...
Be patient, and test fit and mock it up a little. Don't rush. If she needs to get pre test assembled a few times, that is fun,,,and can help yield a better result,
Now for a reply to many question you pose....
And most kindly, I would suggest,,,,don't go to the web to determine the deck height,,,measure it, Don't let the net confuse you at all...you...confirm every dimension, and spec, so that you, personally, own it. And know it, cold hard fact wise.
You do this, in case an irregularity came through on this, specific, part. The only way you really know a dimension, is to personally see it.
Parts do vary, because they are machined to 'tolerances'. Tolerances...vary. And slight imperfections do happen....so,,,,check it all. All that it takes, is a few chips, under a part, in a fixture, to throw a dimension off. All it takes, is a assembly machinist, to forget to bottom tap every hole, maybe he goes on break,,,gets a call,,,,so you check it, and sometimes find a woop see daisy....
A good engine man just eyes and stares at every little detail on every part,,,combing for errors, and flaws. If you are new,,,and not trained to look at this or that,,,look closer, and more patiently, and ask.
Controlling that variation,,,is an art kind of...so here are some ideas
Just general things,,,we did for the factory backed racers, and since.
You should thoroughly clean the block, after you patiently de burr it. We, check every thread with a tap, tapered then bottoming, you want to confirm, that you staked the sleeves too.
Who staked the sleeves? I just wondered, you didn't say anything
So i read, you got the block from the machinist, mounted it, then added plugs. None of use begin to assemble anything from a machine shop, unless they finish cleaned it perfect. Even then, I'd re clean it, especially, since you have stuff to mess with for a while.
To be clear, did you brush all of it, de burr it,,,and chase all the threads? I just did one, those 3 operations took about 4 hours.
I am not clear,,,so I had to ask.
Also....
Did you stake the sleeves? It is wise, to 'set' the sleeves on a new block, rather than over tax the head gaskets,,,to try to set them. Look into that. I use a special driver, and have a press fixture.
A sleeve recedes down,,,,,into a brand new aluminum block. Then, they settle and move less. A new block has to stabilze, in some respects.
That bottom sealing ring, does more work then some imagine.
On the deburr part, this is really a trained machinist skill, so that would take an essay alone. I use about 20 tools, to do that maybe....chamfering bits, inside a bare drill chuck, a burr knife, a rout a burr,,,jewelers files, I re tap every thread,,,tapered tap first, bottoming tap next (You can catch errors there,,,that can break a casting sometimes) , I use a trigle mill file, a mill bastard, an air grinder and rotary carbide cutters, also abrasive cartridge rolls, sometimes a flap wheel, a mini sander, a small diameter right angle air grinder, and more. Every shar edge can help a stress riser form, or cut a gasket, or cut you, or break off, and make chips. So, doing this prep work,yields professional looking results.
Then,,,,before you add any plugs,,,,pressure wash that block, then run oil galley brushes, I have hard plastic brushes,,,on long metal stems, that are twisted for rigidity,,,,,to brush away, any cutting oil, chips, or grit,,,,,from the oil sytem,,,all of it.. You can get, purpose built engine cleaning kits, mine had about 50 brushes.
Then I have a solvent spray gun. You set a siphon tube in your solvent,,,,or cleaning fluid,,,,re blast it all,,,with around a 100 psi,,,,to clean the entire block,,,,,more.
Then, hot, soapy water,,,and I have a big, cylinder bore brush,,,5 inches, by around 6 inches deep,,,,on a long metal handle,,you are wise to thoroughly, remove all of the honing grit, inside the cross hatches of the bore, or, that grit, can skuff your pistons,
I never really likes using a rifle, metal bristle kit, because those fine metal brushes can fall out. If unluck, it ends up in an oil annulus, around a cam bearing, or in a hidden nook. We always used plastic. Get the correct size for the crank oil holes too.
Back to the block
Then, use a light oil, and clean, lint free rags, and scrub the bores, along the lines of the honing,,,at both angles, until all of the dark color is gone,,,,then I re blast
Then light oil. A wipe, with a white, rag, should show no coler if the bores are clean. Some hones, get old, and recede faster, due to wear. They can leave a gunk in the cross hatch, that may take 10 cleanings, to remove, just take your time, and rub hard, into the lines, I use lint free rags,,
Mist her with WD 40, or similar. You can use lacquer thinner later, to clean any oiled surface for a gasket if concerned.
Be careful with brake clean,,,,it can be corrosive in some settings, like if stored.
Then,,slide her into a very clean engine room area,,,,keep the doors get closed,,,,no air born dust is invited into this area, and slide clean trash bags over it when not working on her..... Get the extra big ones.
At Ford Racing,,,they were so very very high end,,,,a talented engine man,,,got fired,,,for leaving the door to the engine room,,,open a little too long,,,,on a windy day where dust was 'up' just a bit....now that is hard core,,,huh?
For a giggle,,,,in the old days,,,,when you built a Top Fuel hemi,,,you would pick the laundry soap to clean the block, like Lemon scented whatever....and you know what?
The first time you fired it up on fuel, blown, for just a few seconds, you'd smell that lemon smell,,,,how fun,,,huh....thats an old school trick,,,,Fuel Altered style
On the super sano engine rooms,,guys let go for a dust issue,,,LOL
This is how hard and fussy the top teams got,,,,trying very very hard to win,,,,
Engine rooms,,,were kind of scientific clean rooms in several shops out here,,,,because they reflected FORD, or the team,,,,so it was a good setting to learn stuff...
Now, I also, do the ring file fitting, BEFORE,,,the final cleaning, and after the last trial assembly of the entire bottom end. If you file fit, then final clean,,,,the grit, from slowly test fitting the rings, ends up in the bore,,,,so it will also be cleaned away.
IF you clean then file,,,you will likely lose filing in the once clean block....you don't need any debris finding the soft over plate of your bearings.
So when you said, mounted the block,,,ready to go, I wanted to suggest some sequence things.
Without getting very very detailed, let me suggest a few more methods we used at Ford Racing, at HMS. And that many do, since, for fun....not lecturing one little bit,,,you all do whatever is fun.
Before continuing,,,maybe
Assemble the bearings, numbered,clean and torqued,,,,and the rods,,,using a rod vise,,,,,did you get one? Use the blot stretch gage,,number that all, then,,,measure the inside of each bearing bore, and be careful, the inexpensive dial bore gages,,,can cut into the bearing
The good, high end bore gages, have a wide tip, and a big radius...they dig into the bearing less, the cheap ones,,,well ....just go slow. Look for gouging, use magnification,,well we do,,,especially me, I am super fussy on such things
Set it to not, turn a full rev to read too,,,that is just adding tension we don't need,,,adjust the shims,,....If you fuss and adjust it to just open, they can exert less force and yiled better readings.
Then mic it...write it all down
Mic every position onthe crank,,,check for variation,,,and taper, take your time
Make notes. If close,,,and with a subtle,,,light, or moderate drag,,,mic it,,,,then set the bore gage, then see what you have,,,,in every position,,,one by one.
What I prefer,,,,is,,,finish the block and rods,,,,install the shells,,,,measure them,,,compare them,,,,then,,,,tell the crank grinder,,,what sizes you need
That leaves no guess work. You set the specs, not fate.
Also,,,we, many of us,actually measure the pistons,,,then, finish hone the block. This way,,,you can control all of your clearance,,,to the 0001 ,,,or,,,to the tenth.
Maybe just think on it for next time, for now, let's see where you are at. We all, have re line honed to move main clearances maybe, or changed the rod boig end size, to change a clearance.
Depends on how close you like it.
Also,,,,it takes a lot of practice,,,and experience,,,,and time,,,for many many guys, to do repeatable mic work. 3 guys can hand you 3 sizes,,,ha ha. No joke.
And old test, for who got hired in a top machine shop, was to have the applicants, mic a few things. And the Foreman, mine had this huge resume, and rep, taught us this. I saw it elsewhere too. The applicants, would get hired, and get a try out, only, if they knew how to mic a part, with that correct 'feel'...that yileds repeatable dimensions, and specs.
So patiently learn that feel,,,,and have a pro, double check your measurements maybe.
Sadly, some guys, just do not have the finesse to gently, and carefully, provide you a consistent set of measurements. We sent them to welding and fabrication,, ha ha
To learn, you often, do an apprenticeship, under a Master Machinist,,,who checks you out in many ways,,,to see if you have that touch,
Top engine shops, use 2 and 3 axis, digital measuring centers, set on a granite surface plate...to maintain tenth tolerances. Ed Pink, has 2 rooms, just for this task..and they do a computer print out too. You will be fine, with less precision.
Many will be fine with mics..,,,,but as a first timer,,,,maybe double check..to learn
ALso,,,pick a constant temperature time maybe....if you set your clearances, on a very very hot day, in a hot shop,,,,and re check the following Winter,,,the can surprise you !
Some guys mic,,,very very light,,,others, just drag that anvil, thimble and so on,,,and are too heavy handed, you end up with dimensions all over the place in both cases
If the goal,,,is a tenth tolerance race engine,,,,the error or lack of it,,,is key. We all had to maintain this discipline, and this justifies the cost, to have an engine professionally built,
Next tip. You give us crank dimensions,,,,,in one essay,,,,but they are only in thousandths...dot 1,2,3
I worried,,,you want to explain,,,,like,,,,I measured...rod throws at,,1.999
Please go farther....1.999.......with a 1? 2? 3? See? That ten thousandth,,,,all 10 tenths,,,is where the actual clearance game lives,,,,see ? To check the tenths, maybe get a friction thimble mic,,,and re check, on your standards.
Trying to help pal not an ounce of criticism here,,,
You want to tell us,,,,in tenths, so let us know,,,the size,,,,with 4 significant figures
Then, we can shoot for the clearances, to the tenth,,,,like,,,,we had 0028 on the mains, and 0025 on the rods
usually we make them,,all just about exactly the same,,
What we would do,,,,is actually ball mic the rod and main bearing shells too.....because sometimes, you can make the similarity, or each clearance, closer, by swapping the bearing shells from location, to location,
Often, we mix and match,,,2,3,4 sets of bearings that way,,,,and pick the best fitting ones,,,sometimes,,,,
This is a well known race engine practice, called,,,,select fitting,,,your bearings
It helps on an endurance engine, or a very precise engine,,,,,and on a drag engine, it is less worrisome,,,,,on a blown fueler, a bit less worrisome,,,,because we change the bearings a lot, and run very thick oil
On the main bores,,,,they do not come finished on a Pond or Shelby unless you specify and pay for the finals hone, I think your machinist did that,,,so good.
For me, and our guys, and some pals these days....we run the main bore size, BELOW,,,the low limit, depending on the engine design, and task.
Say at 1000 HP...you might, if spinning it hard...003-0004 under the low limit.
In that way, as the engine runs, races, breaks in, and moves, that dimension, can grow bigger, yet maintain good crush, over a season or whatever. TO race.
You sould like you are going pump gas, for a fun car, so, your size there,,,around the low limit, is OK,,,,but to make big power, next time it you bump up the compression,,,I'd look into putting more crush on the mains
On the OEM cams,,,,we are all different,,,,,,but I'd say.....I would be careful,,,using a race cam, and over 2 full points less compression,
A key trick back when, and since, big time, is adding, not subtracting compression to a cammer.
It didnt take a year, for the A/FX teams, and the subequent Pro Stock SOHC teams, to try this and win.
My pal, Dyno Don pushed that envelope,,,as hard as the gas, and ignition, from this era, would allow, and, you were, well, rewarded,,,,for figuring how and when to bleed off cylinder pressure with better, race purposed cams,
Knowing how to mix gas, was a trick too. Stroppe made special gas called,,,Fast Gas. He had the patent.
Crane Crower, Isky Engle, Holman Mooody, Stroppe, Howard and eventually, General Kinetics, and others,,,Ford,,,,tried hundreds of cam combos, I have talked about how we mixed and matched some
I read you say, you cams, are NOS lift,,,,with shorter ramps, and shorter advertised duration, and less duration at 050. I am glad, if you are modernizing these, to help restore some pop, since you reduced the squeaze
Personally,,,and a lot of us kind of think this,,,,,and please please dont get offended,,,
A SOHC,,,,just sounds like a SOHC,,,,,when you run it, hammer it, and rev it,,,with the race gas compression, that Ford gave us these engines with, and they sound even more angry, and like they raced at Drag strips all over the nation,,,with at least 12.5 to 1,,,,,then more,,,,but you need open headers and a lot of ignition advance, to get that old school, big power sound.
On pump gas,,,,well,,,that is fine,,,,,but the exhaust note,,,and power,,,,and how it feels when you goose it,,,,well,,,just know,,,and tell your guests, etc,,,,,that this is a race engine,,,,,and a purpose buiult race engine,,,,,that was redesigned, and de tuned,,,to run ordinary, pump gas
A stock SOHC,,,with the pistons slab milled, to gibe you 10-1...it just, to me,,sounds wrong. It sounds,,,dull, and constrained, and tamed, but guys do it, thats fine. They rev slower, accelerate slower, and sound pretty tame out the tail pipe. To a racer maybe, to me,for sure, and to all my amigos.
Out West,,,,guys have kind of got hip to this,,,because a single 4, 10 to 1 SOHC,,,,is not going to smoke the tires through 3rd gear in a COBRA,,,,or blow the doors of some of the cars your buddies may challenge you with
Stock, they pulled 600 HP easy....with all that cylinder pressure removed, you may be at 450 to 500....so,,these engine are heavier than some too, so I'd like to add above the 600 HP,,,thats all we every want, is more more.
So, we have, and you see, a lot of SOHC guys just mixing race gas, or running race gas,,,to keep Mr SOHC popping,,,,at at least 13 to 1.
If not, the modern street cams are a big help. Save the race cams, for a race engine.
OK, I gotta go,,,,i will check later,,,,you are doing well,,,be patient...have fun...and smoke them hard for Henry
Just like Jay !!
Nice build,,,sounds fun
Now the other engine mmen here can add or help next,,,,a lot of good engine guys are here,,,so they can be a huge help
LEts end,,,fast...
To cruise,,,I think the modern cams, and you should move them several times in the car, under timed trials, or , do some dyno dialing in.....or, just have fun
I am totally happy for you young man,,,,kudos for achieving a dream, and for all the hard work
So,,,,clean the block like a pro maybe
test assemble it
Select fit the rods and mains, or let us know where you are
File fit, de burr, tap, chase every thread,,,,
Brush the oil galleries
Consider some compression
OH,,,,,and we mock an FE up first,,,then order the pistons,,,,that way,,,to can call out, or specify the compression height,,,,,no guessing needed
A good machine shop can mic that,,,and tell you. We have the test stuff,,,9-10 and 10-11 inch micrometers,,,depth gages, etc
To also bootstrap,,,,,when you test assemble the bottom end,,,,before you pull it apart to adjust, re clean, etc,,,oil,,,,,you can,,,,,just take rod and piston 1,,,,,,and then install it,,,,after measuring the down,,,or deck height,,,,say down, or minus 005 , for example,,,,,then,,never hurts,,,to install that rod, that bearing, that piston,,,no rings,,,,,torque her up in hole 4, then 5, then 8. Then you know for sure,,,how square the block came out,,,,and how even your piston down will end up
I hope this helps, it sounds real fun. And the under hood appeal, when done, is second to none
The above is to stimulate your thinking on this build, and hopefully help you have a very sound build. And be patient,,,another suggestion, we would mock up and test assemble a race FE,,,2,3,4 times if need be, for that edge you may need, to win
We grew up surrounded by blown nitro SOHCs at the Drags,,,,that was a golden era
Your engine just stunned a lot of guys who would see how fast and well they competed. SO welcome to that club
And as for FORD tough,,,,,my old friend,,,won so many nitro races with a CAMMER,,,,that these engine ,,,well,,,if you knew what you were doing,,,,you could race a blown cammer,,,on Nitro,,,,and race 2 or 3 match races a week,,,,at over 200 MPH,,,,,and after the run,,,,you drained the water,,,,let it cool down,,,,then you did a leak down test,,,,,,drained the oil,,,,checked or changed the plugs,,,new oil, new water,,,,and send it right back to the line. Ya,,,,you often even have to pull the valve covers,,,,,
Tommy Grove,,,,who won 85 consecutive rounds with a Nitro SOHC,,,,,and he is legend,,,,a true SOHC Champion,,,,he had one SOHC,,,,live,,,,heads never came off,,,,for 6 full months of racing,,,,,6 months,,,,,with a FORD iron block,,,,and FORD Iron, then aluminum heads,,,
I'd say,,,,the FOrd Drag Team, the Drag Council, and the AFX Dragster,and Funny Car guys from then,,well,,were on to a good thing,,,,,
Non adjustable rockers too,,,,,,the lash caps rev, and live sometimes,,,,,
There are maybe 20 or more tricks to that
But you have an engine, with a proud, and storied history
I am real happy for you
WHile the Chryslers,,,,were in there pits,,,pulling off the heads between rounds,,,and pulling off the pan,,,,changing bearings,,,bending pushrods, dropping valves and so on,,,,they were pulling around 7000
And the FORD cammer was winning and winning,,,,,,and revving up to 8500
Also, i just wondered,,,this is a street car, right? Why the solid motor mounts ? I guess I'd ask, why not use the stock style, and pin them? Just wondered.
Welcome to the club FORD man
Also,,,in case I forget,,,,get the original Ford SOHC manual......it is a help too
Of on the stub cam,,,if you are not running super stiff springs, we did a lot as designed, but on blown, we just added a second key,,,,you just broach the sprocket,,,we had a broacher, or just send it out, to a broach shop,,,not expensive,,,then, use a woodruff cutter, in a mill, and add a second key, 180' away from the original key. One pal, went about 100,000 miles on the street that way.
We also, later, added a back up dowel .... just press on one end, reamed to slide on the other. This does not affect the temper or heat treat.
I would also, read a few,,,How to Build a Race Engine books maybe....especially the older ones, that had a lot of FE's in them,,,for fun, and for more techniques maybe...reference
Best
Tom
