Nostalgia Superstock 67 Fairlane

[BH107]

Beautiful work.

Interesting to see the power differences between your engine and the 462 that ToddK built for his 63 Galaxie. I'm hoping to build one in the spring and land somewhere between the two.

http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=1498.0

[fe66comet]

Velocity is measured in HG or pressure at a certain CFM . As velocity increases so does flow but at a cost in static friction and turbulence. With increased velocity you actually can loose density in relation to your potential charge by heat gain but also give it less time to loose atomization by not pooling fuel. I usually leave a semi polished surface on the intake side to help with tumble in the mixture and polish the exhaust to speed exit with the least amount of resistance.

[blykins]

You can measure port velocity with the probe on the flow bench.  It gives you air speed (distance/time like a pitot tube on an airplane)....you want high velocity of course.

To be honest, I've been looking at your build and wondering if you had a conservative flow bench or a liberal dyno...LOL  The ports on your heads look pretty large, but I can't figure out how that much work only netted 309 cfm....which is pretty standard for a very mild port on an Edelbrock, or a pair of BBM heads out of the box, a pair of Barry's heads out of the box, etc.  A normal Edelbrock FE port with a lot of port work will hit the 320's-330's and a CNC port will get you up to the 360-370 mark. 

However, all the other build specs look to be in check.....you don't have an abnormally high torque/displacement number.....and you are running 13.5:1 with a pretty big cam, so I think your flow bench is on the tight-lipped side. 

I asked about the port velocity measurement as a round-about way of sneaking up on figuring out how good the heads actually were.

Nice piece though, good power, and very nice looking. 

[cjetmech]

Any pics of the car?

[KeiserMustang]

Had a very disappointing day yesterday as we wrapped up my dyno work.  The -.050" locks only yielded an additional .015" compression on the installed height of the spring. Unfortunately, I can't explain this and my friend, the shop owner, wasn't too interested in trying to work through the issue.  We did look for some valve spring shims but he didn't have any that would fit over the pilot on the spring cups.

At the end of the day the only thing I could get him to agree to do was make a couple more pulls through a higher RPM range.  My hope was to see a little more clearly what the HP and TRQ curves were doing after the engine started to lay over.

Here are the two pulls graphed together...



Unfortunately, there's nothing else I can do at this point short of pulling the motor off the dyno and taking it to another shop to continue testing.  The shop owner has been in the process of phasing into retirement for the last several years.  My engine is the first one that's been run there in over two years.  He is insistent on the fact that there is nothing wrong with my engine and there is no sense in working on it any more.  His recommendation is to put a 7000 rpm limit in the ignition box and shift it at 6700.

At this point, I'm terribly frustrated.  This project has been a LONG time coming for me and I hate the thought of just leaving it the way it is if there is indeed something not quite right (I thought that's what dyno testing was for).

So, I respect the expert opinions of the folks on this forum...should I move this engine to another shop and keep working on it, or leave it as is?

[My427stang]

I don't have as much solid roller experience as the other guys here, but I think you are a little light on spring pressure.

Mathematically, you started out at 240 installed / 568 open, certainly in the ballpark but seems like you are having control problems
With your keeper change, you should be at 247/576, not enough to make a difference IMHO, and the dyno showed it
You still have room for shims, at 1.36 (lash subtracted) open, you could go as much as .040 in shim, with .035 under there you'd end up at around 265 closed / 594 open, which seems like it would help keep the roller on the cam at high RPM.

Did you ever check the springs and see what they really were?

The other question is, do you redyno it?   Can't beg the buddy for one more set of pulls?  Maybe a case of beer and a nap first and he'll get remotivated.  Needless to say, if adding 30 lbs on the nose doesn't help, it probably is something else

[KeiserMustang]

I don't have as much solid roller experience as the other guys here, but I think you are a little light on spring pressure.

Mathematically, you started out at 240 installed / 568 open, certainly in the ballpark but seems like you are having control problems
With your keeper change, you should be at 247/576, not enough to make a difference IMHO, and the dyno showed it
You still have room for shims, at 1.36 (lash subtracted) open, you could go as much as .040 in shim, with .035 under there you'd end up at around 265 closed / 594 open, which seems like it would help keep the roller on the cam at high RPM.

Did you ever check the springs and see what they really were?

The other question is, do you redyno it?   Can't beg the buddy for one more set of pulls?  Maybe a case of beer and a nap first and he'll get remotivated.  Needless to say, if adding 30 lbs on the nose doesn't help, it probably is something else

We didn't actually change the locks.  Once we saw it only yielded .015" on the installed height, he said it was a waist of time and it turned into an argument.  Hate to say this, but I'm fighting a losing battle with my "buddy".  He's done machine work for me for years but he's 68 now, grumpy about everything, he's only ever worked on GM stuff, and wants to retire but can't.  I'm still a dumb kid (even though I'm 40 now) and he's not interested in messing with my stuff anymore.  He made it clear that he's only doing this dyno work as a personal favor...even though I'm a paying customer 

[blykins]

You need different springs.  Which Comp lobes are you using?  Hollow stem valves?

I'd like to see it at 275-300 seat with at least 650 open.  That's what I would put on it if it were here. 

Swap out the springs, take it somewhere else and dyno it.  You've got a strong piece and I wouldn't leave it alone.  By the looks of the curves, you are losing control of the valvetrain and if that continues to happen, you can really end up tearing some stuff up. 

[KeiserMustang]

Brent, thanks for the feedback on the engine! 

At this point, I'm looking for someone to help me make the changes to the engine and re-dyno.  Everyone on this forum has been super helpful, so I'd love to keep the business here...

Brent, where is your shop?

I'm in east-central Indiana.

[blykins]

I'm near Louisville, KY, but don't have my own dyno.....I gotta roll about an hour and half south of me when it's time to make noise. 

You are pretty close to Barry though, he's in Detroit....

[Barry_R]

Thanks for the lead-in...

My shop is in the northwest suburbs of Detroit, and we have an in-house DTS8800.
Not the coolest dyno around, but a pretty darn nice installation and we can handle your engine if you decide to do so.

I would be tempted to look at a couple things on the existing package before making any big changes, but do have to agree with the idea that something might not be "right".  Pull a rocker and look for a "butterfly" shaped pattern on the valve tip - a clear indication of float.  Sometimes its not just the pure pressure numbers - but the effective rate or harmonic range of the spring that'll get you into trouble - a similar spring with different wire diameters might fix it.  Stuff we can't learn without a spintron, but that can be quickly tried for modest cost.

[blykins]

It would be nice to get a baseline on another dyno, just for the sake of comparison.

Keiser, if Barry turns out to be too far away for you, or the time frame doesn't line up, I can make arrangements to meet you at the dyno that I use.   Great bunch of guys (owner builds roundy-round and straight-line race engines) and I can be there for some FE experience/help.  Shop is in Buffalo, KY, which is about 15 minutes east of Elizabethtown, KY.

Performance Engineering is in Ross, OH as well....he's got a DTS and I've dyno'd FE's there too.

[cjetmech]

Wow Brent thats pretty cool, trying to send Barry some biz. You don't see that often. kudo's

[blykins]

Barry's got 2 more kids to feed than I do....