Nostalgia Superstock 67 Fairlane

[KeiserMustang]

Thought I'd start a post on my NSS 67 Fairlane project.  It's been underway for quite awhile, but I finally ran the engine on the dyno yesterday.  I'll post some catch up pictures later...





688 HP @ 6700 rpm
580 ft-lbs @ 5300 rpm

[machoneman]

Nice! We need engine specs too........

[My427stang]

That should haul the mail!

[jayb]

Nice numbers, and a great looking engine.  I'm looking at the kink in the HP curve up top; the discontinuity indicates that you are losing control of the valvetrain at that point.  I've run across that problem quite a few times; in the link below you can see the same issue with an engine I built several years ago with a solid roller cam.

http://www.fepower.net/Dyno%20Results/dyno_results_8.html

If you are going to run the engine that high in the RPM range I'd be looking at stiffer valvesprings...

[ScotiaFE]

Which cam was that Jay?

Nice looking wedge there.

[jayb]

It was a Comp Solid roller, one of their Extreme Energy series.  Lift was around .710, duration 272@.050".

[philminotti]

Nice water pump adapters!

[KeiserMustang]

Jay, thanks for the feedback on the valve springs.  Here's some more info on the cam and the springs.

Here's the cam specs:


Valve springs are Comp Cams 955's...1.550" o.d., 240 lbs @ 2.000" installed height, 526 lb/in rate, 608 lbs open @ 1.300"

Thoughts on a better spring?

[Barry_R]

I agree on the valvetrain issue.  A hard drop like that indicates float.  If you are truly at 2.00" installed height you only have 570ish open.  Do you have titanium or tool steel retainers?  They help a lot.  I run a lot of Manley Nextec 221443 springs for oval track stuff.  It gives about 235 seat at 1.960 and 610ish open with a .750 max lift and goes cleanly over 7000 with TI or tool steel retainers.

[KeiserMustang]

Titanium retainers...

[KeiserMustang]

Engine is a 462 that started with a 428 block.  I did all the port work on the heads and intake.  Comp solid roller, T&D rockers, Diamond pistons, SCAT rotating assembly.

The goal was to make around 600 HP...   It made 688 with only timing adjustments. Not sure it won't make 700 with the valve spring swap. 

I saw the same thing on a buddy's engine a few years ago.  HP and TRQ dropped sporadically at the top of the RPM range.  A valve spring swap smoothed it out and it picked up about 20 HP.

Realistically the HP is not what I'm after, but stabilizing the valve train and keeping the engine alive is more important.

[jayb]

I'm kind of surprised that those springs won't handle that cam, especially with titanium retainers.  I think I'd try shimming them, maybe go to a 1.95" installed height using -.050" locks, assuming you have the room over the valve seal.  Alternatively, maybe a Pacalloy spring that's a step up...

[BH107]

Awesome!

What did the heads flow when you were done with them?

[mlcraven]

The alternator bracket set-up..your own design/fabrication or sourced through a vendor?

[KeiserMustang]

Heads flowed 309 on the intake up to .650" then flow went away.  This was on a 4.155" bore.  Exhaust flowed 270+ and kept going up to .700"

[KeiserMustang]

The alternator bracket set-up..your own design/fabrication or sourced through a vendor?

I designed the alternator mounts and made them when I still worked in the machine shop.

[KeiserMustang]

I'm kind of surprised that those springs won't handle that cam, especially with titanium retainers.  I think I'd try shimming them, maybe go to a 1.95" installed height using -.050" locks, assuming you have the room over the valve seal.  Alternatively, maybe a Pacalloy spring that's a step up...

My machinist and dyno operator is not convinced the springs are the problem either.  He seems to thing the motor is just running out of power up top and the sudden drop at the end of the pull is just a result of where we have the dyno set to brake.  It's a Superflow 901.  I don't honestly know how that works, but I thought we made a pull up to 7200 rpm and it still hit a ceiling at 6700 and dropped suddenly.

The valves are still 3/8" stem, maybe heavy?

The Comp 955 springs are Pacalloy.

Went ahead and ordered a set of -.050" locks.

[jayb]

Well, I can guarantee you that no motor runs out of power and drops off that suddenly.  A dyno curve should look smooth, not discontinuous like yours does.  Something is happening at that point in the RPM range.  Also, if the dyno settings were off the motor would not behave that way either.  I have a Superflow 901, and it is possible to squeeze off the power of the engine at the top end if you have the valving at the absorber set wrong, but it would have to be set WAY wrong, and it wouldn't cause a sharp drop in power like the one shown in your chart. 

One other possible cause might be an ignition issue.  Is that possible?

If you install those -.050" locks, will you take it back to the dyno to run it again?  It would be interesting to see if increasing the spring pressure helps the problem...

[blykins]

Compression ratio?

[fe66comet]

What heads are those? Just wondering for comparison, I upgraded my heads to 11/32 undercut stems and bigger valves. I am going to stay lower in the RPM range though and have smaller cubes.

[KeiserMustang]

Well, I can guarantee you that no motor runs out of power and drops off that suddenly.  A dyno curve should look smooth, not discontinuous like yours does.  Something is happening at that point in the RPM range.  Also, if the dyno settings were off the motor would not behave that way either.  I have a Superflow 901, and it is possible to squeeze off the power of the engine at the top end if you have the valving at the absorber set wrong, but it would have to be set WAY wrong, and it wouldn't cause a sharp drop in power like the one shown in your chart. 

One other possible cause might be an ignition issue.  Is that possible?

If you install those -.050" locks, will you take it back to the dyno to run it again?  It would be interesting to see if increasing the spring pressure helps the problem...

Absolutely, the engine is still on the dyno now, so as soon as I get the locks changed, we'll run it again.  I'd also like to run it up about another 500 rpm or maybe around 7300 to see if the HP curve rolls over smoothly like I think it should.

Ignition on the dyno is a very old 7AL.  Probably worth looking at.  Also, the MSD distributor in the motor is at least 14 years old.  We thought about changing the pickup as well, but I don't know if that's something that could cause a high RPM problem, or if bad is just bad and it won't run?

I'll be sure and post the results.  Hopefully on Saturday.

[KeiserMustang]

Compression ratio?

Somewhere around 13.5:1

[KeiserMustang]

What heads are those? Just wondering for comparison, I upgraded my heads to 11/32 undercut stems and bigger valves. I am going to stay lower in the RPM range though and have smaller cubes.

Edelbrock heads...

[fe66comet]

I thought so but was not sure, I have the RPM heads also. I am surprised you got that much power out of them but with 13:1 that explains a lot. I am shooting for 11.5:1 myself. Very interesting build for mostly off the shelf stuff and not a lot of fancy goodies. Can't wait to see how it pans out for you.

[KeiserMustang]

I thought so but was not sure, I have the RPM heads also. I am surprised you got that much power out of them but with 13:1 that explains a lot. I am shooting for 11.5:1 myself. Very interesting build for mostly off the shelf stuff and not a lot of fancy goodies. Can't wait to see how it pans out for you.

Hmmm...I sure wouldn't consider anything on this engine "off the shelf"...LOL 
There's not a single part that hasn't been cut, ground, machined, ported, polished, whittled, worked over, fitted, pulled apart, reworked, re-fitted and reassembled! 

Custom pistons, custom cam grind, custom pushrods, untold hours in the heads for bigger valves, intake ports "moved", chambers massaged, machined for T&D competition rocker system, intake reworked...

[fe66comet]

Port work excluded of course, I have the same rocker system. I went with the T&D race myself as it seemed the nicest system to me and I like the through rod oiling. The port work on my heads still need to be completed, along with chamber reshaping and I am looking for someone to port my intake right now.  I would do the intake lower myself but i am shooting for somewhere between 340-350 CFM intake wise @.700 lift.  The intake manifold will be the big question at this point as to how much I can squeeze out of it. I wonder how much you could have gained with a valve change and undercut stems? It looks like you lopped a lot out of the intake manifold so that certainly helped feed the beast , what was you final port size on the intake manifold? I suppose if all else fails for my plan I could do some welding to make my port work? Welding aluminum is not my forte so I would have to farm that out LOL.

[ScotiaFE]

Now the big
                 

How many pedals?

[KeiserMustang]

Now the big
                 

How many pedals?

Just two for now...
Adding the third pedal is REALLY expensive 
But it is part of the plan...someday.

[blykins]

Did you measure port velocity? 

[KeiserMustang]

Did you measure port velocity?

We did measure the flow numbers on the flow bench, but to be honest I'm not sure I've heard of measuring port velocity.  How is that done and what does it tell you in comparison to flow?

[BH107]

Beautiful work.

Interesting to see the power differences between your engine and the 462 that ToddK built for his 63 Galaxie. I'm hoping to build one in the spring and land somewhere between the two.

http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=1498.0

[fe66comet]

Velocity is measured in HG or pressure at a certain CFM . As velocity increases so does flow but at a cost in static friction and turbulence. With increased velocity you actually can loose density in relation to your potential charge by heat gain but also give it less time to loose atomization by not pooling fuel. I usually leave a semi polished surface on the intake side to help with tumble in the mixture and polish the exhaust to speed exit with the least amount of resistance.

[blykins]

You can measure port velocity with the probe on the flow bench.  It gives you air speed (distance/time like a pitot tube on an airplane)....you want high velocity of course.

To be honest, I've been looking at your build and wondering if you had a conservative flow bench or a liberal dyno...LOL  The ports on your heads look pretty large, but I can't figure out how that much work only netted 309 cfm....which is pretty standard for a very mild port on an Edelbrock, or a pair of BBM heads out of the box, a pair of Barry's heads out of the box, etc.  A normal Edelbrock FE port with a lot of port work will hit the 320's-330's and a CNC port will get you up to the 360-370 mark. 

However, all the other build specs look to be in check.....you don't have an abnormally high torque/displacement number.....and you are running 13.5:1 with a pretty big cam, so I think your flow bench is on the tight-lipped side. 

I asked about the port velocity measurement as a round-about way of sneaking up on figuring out how good the heads actually were.

Nice piece though, good power, and very nice looking. 

[cjetmech]

Any pics of the car?

[KeiserMustang]

Had a very disappointing day yesterday as we wrapped up my dyno work.  The -.050" locks only yielded an additional .015" compression on the installed height of the spring. Unfortunately, I can't explain this and my friend, the shop owner, wasn't too interested in trying to work through the issue.  We did look for some valve spring shims but he didn't have any that would fit over the pilot on the spring cups.

At the end of the day the only thing I could get him to agree to do was make a couple more pulls through a higher RPM range.  My hope was to see a little more clearly what the HP and TRQ curves were doing after the engine started to lay over.

Here are the two pulls graphed together...



Unfortunately, there's nothing else I can do at this point short of pulling the motor off the dyno and taking it to another shop to continue testing.  The shop owner has been in the process of phasing into retirement for the last several years.  My engine is the first one that's been run there in over two years.  He is insistent on the fact that there is nothing wrong with my engine and there is no sense in working on it any more.  His recommendation is to put a 7000 rpm limit in the ignition box and shift it at 6700.

At this point, I'm terribly frustrated.  This project has been a LONG time coming for me and I hate the thought of just leaving it the way it is if there is indeed something not quite right (I thought that's what dyno testing was for).

So, I respect the expert opinions of the folks on this forum...should I move this engine to another shop and keep working on it, or leave it as is?

[My427stang]

I don't have as much solid roller experience as the other guys here, but I think you are a little light on spring pressure.

Mathematically, you started out at 240 installed / 568 open, certainly in the ballpark but seems like you are having control problems
With your keeper change, you should be at 247/576, not enough to make a difference IMHO, and the dyno showed it
You still have room for shims, at 1.36 (lash subtracted) open, you could go as much as .040 in shim, with .035 under there you'd end up at around 265 closed / 594 open, which seems like it would help keep the roller on the cam at high RPM.

Did you ever check the springs and see what they really were?

The other question is, do you redyno it?   Can't beg the buddy for one more set of pulls?  Maybe a case of beer and a nap first and he'll get remotivated.  Needless to say, if adding 30 lbs on the nose doesn't help, it probably is something else

[KeiserMustang]

I don't have as much solid roller experience as the other guys here, but I think you are a little light on spring pressure.

Mathematically, you started out at 240 installed / 568 open, certainly in the ballpark but seems like you are having control problems
With your keeper change, you should be at 247/576, not enough to make a difference IMHO, and the dyno showed it
You still have room for shims, at 1.36 (lash subtracted) open, you could go as much as .040 in shim, with .035 under there you'd end up at around 265 closed / 594 open, which seems like it would help keep the roller on the cam at high RPM.

Did you ever check the springs and see what they really were?

The other question is, do you redyno it?   Can't beg the buddy for one more set of pulls?  Maybe a case of beer and a nap first and he'll get remotivated.  Needless to say, if adding 30 lbs on the nose doesn't help, it probably is something else

We didn't actually change the locks.  Once we saw it only yielded .015" on the installed height, he said it was a waist of time and it turned into an argument.  Hate to say this, but I'm fighting a losing battle with my "buddy".  He's done machine work for me for years but he's 68 now, grumpy about everything, he's only ever worked on GM stuff, and wants to retire but can't.  I'm still a dumb kid (even though I'm 40 now) and he's not interested in messing with my stuff anymore.  He made it clear that he's only doing this dyno work as a personal favor...even though I'm a paying customer 

[blykins]

You need different springs.  Which Comp lobes are you using?  Hollow stem valves?

I'd like to see it at 275-300 seat with at least 650 open.  That's what I would put on it if it were here. 

Swap out the springs, take it somewhere else and dyno it.  You've got a strong piece and I wouldn't leave it alone.  By the looks of the curves, you are losing control of the valvetrain and if that continues to happen, you can really end up tearing some stuff up. 

[KeiserMustang]

Brent, thanks for the feedback on the engine! 

At this point, I'm looking for someone to help me make the changes to the engine and re-dyno.  Everyone on this forum has been super helpful, so I'd love to keep the business here...

Brent, where is your shop?

I'm in east-central Indiana.

[blykins]

I'm near Louisville, KY, but don't have my own dyno.....I gotta roll about an hour and half south of me when it's time to make noise. 

You are pretty close to Barry though, he's in Detroit....

[Barry_R]

Thanks for the lead-in...

My shop is in the northwest suburbs of Detroit, and we have an in-house DTS8800.
Not the coolest dyno around, but a pretty darn nice installation and we can handle your engine if you decide to do so.

I would be tempted to look at a couple things on the existing package before making any big changes, but do have to agree with the idea that something might not be "right".  Pull a rocker and look for a "butterfly" shaped pattern on the valve tip - a clear indication of float.  Sometimes its not just the pure pressure numbers - but the effective rate or harmonic range of the spring that'll get you into trouble - a similar spring with different wire diameters might fix it.  Stuff we can't learn without a spintron, but that can be quickly tried for modest cost.

[blykins]

It would be nice to get a baseline on another dyno, just for the sake of comparison.

Keiser, if Barry turns out to be too far away for you, or the time frame doesn't line up, I can make arrangements to meet you at the dyno that I use.   Great bunch of guys (owner builds roundy-round and straight-line race engines) and I can be there for some FE experience/help.  Shop is in Buffalo, KY, which is about 15 minutes east of Elizabethtown, KY.

Performance Engineering is in Ross, OH as well....he's got a DTS and I've dyno'd FE's there too.

[cjetmech]

Wow Brent thats pretty cool, trying to send Barry some biz. You don't see that often. kudo's

[blykins]

Barry's got 2 more kids to feed than I do....