FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: Thumperbird on January 14, 2024, 09:08:18 AM
-
I am sure this has been discussed before but looking for fresh chat as I have seem some electric fan duscussion recenty.
I have moderate 445 2x4 in a Thunderbird, probably around 500hp, hole in the hood for a scoop but if it is 95 out and I am stuck in traffic the temp. will climb to 220 pretty quicky, have never boiled it over but it makes me nervous if it is really hot out and cruising is more like crawling. I have a decent quality flex fan and some fabricated sides acting as a shroud but not a "typcial" tight to the fan shroud. Aluminum aftermarket radiator.
Now for the question, in general, could one expect a flex fan delete and the addition of a large single or dual electric fans to remedy this siutation? In other words, just how good or different are electric fans at pulling air through the radiator, it does have an AC condensor and a trans cooler out front adding to the restriction.
Thanks.
-
look at the Spal electric fans,im happy with mine,temp never gets above 190,even with no shroud on it except the one around the fan.
-
x2 on the Spal.
Best fan on the market.
Electric fans are pretty good at low engine speed situations.
-
Should check this out as well. Soft start and can use for AC. My brother runs one and loves it. Only runs as much fan as you need.
https://www.autocoolguy.com/home
-
Should check this out as well. Soft start and can use for AC. My brother runs one and loves it. Only runs as much fan as you need.
https://www.autocoolguy.com/home
Don't know if the product is good - - but spell check could help out a lot on that site
-
Is your crank pulley equal or bigger than your fan pulley? Going from an under drive crank pulley to a direct drive made enough improvement for me.
-
+3 on Spal fans. At low speeds the flex fan turns slowly, and will not pull the same amount of air as a couple of good Spal fans. Beware, many of the other electric fans out there don't pull a lot of air, despite their promising cfm ratings...
-
In these older type chassis, for one's typical "street car" use applications, and with consideration of what is typically marketed as, I consider electric fans as best utilized as being "supplemental", this to the existence of the best execution of the mechanical fan first. :)
Scott.
-
I've tried two different aluminum rads on a 428 Edelbrock.
The cheap rad worked okish. The nice expensive rad works great.
Same fan.
I'm still running the old 68 brass top rad on the 482 BBM. It works okish.
A better rad would help a lot. But then I would not have the brass top.
-
There was a time in the recent past where this fan assembly was the secret weapon: https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/ford,1993,taurus,3.8l+v6,1138766,cooling+system,radiator+fan+assembly,2181
3,500CFM low speed, 5,000CFM high speed. And cheap!
Runs with this controller: http://www.dccontrol.com/Multispeed.htm Not very cheap at around 100 bucks but solves the question about how you're going to drive the fans and when the come on and off.
A couple hundred for the whole shebang.
It comes down to whether it fits between your engine and radiator.
-
Thanks for all the feedback thus far.
Not sure I can run a Taurus fan, oh the stories I could tell about my 94 taurus wagon! ;)
While I do not recall specifics on the aluminum radiator I bought it was a good one at the time from what I remember.
I just don't think I am pulling much air, fan blades are ~1" back from the rad. face and it has to pull through radiator and condensor, and even the oil cooler for part of it and like I said shroud is a home brew not sealed well to the fan blades.
More questions:
1. Do you guys typically run 2 smaller fans (as large as will fit) or 1 as large as will fit?
2. Do you use one of those temp. sense switches, on at say 185, off at 175?
3. Scott throws caution at running an electric fan only, others thoughts on this if quality of all components is good?
(i can imagine I would install an overide switch to run full time in case of controls failure)
Back to the Taurus, once had the Ford regional customer rep. tell me that the reason the electric window motors died and windows stopped working (motors/gear box got wet) at 3.1 years old (out of warranty) was because I did not take it to a dealer for routine maintenance. That must have been why the trans started slipping at 3.6 years of age and under 61000 miles (out of warranty) and why the head gaskets went by 90k miles. Did I mention the rear tires wore very excessively due to alignment issue right from the factory? Maybe I'm confusing that with my 2000 era ford trucks that used to eat coil packs, blew spark plugs, head gaskets, and trans as well. Why I bought more Fords back then I'll never know.
Thanks all for any additonal feedback provided! Happy winter.
-
Here is my setup from my 66 Comet. Dual fans from a 99-2000 cougar/mistique V6 which I got for 35.00 from a salvage yard. Works really good with my Dakota Digital fan controller. Jim
-
Thanks for all the feedback thus far.
Not sure I can run a Taurus fan, oh the stories I could tell about my 94 taurus wagon! ;)
While I do not recall specifics on the aluminum radiator I bought it was a good one at the time from what I remember.
I just don't think I am pulling much air, fan blades are ~1" back from the rad. face and it has to pull through radiator and condensor, and even the oil cooler for part of it and like I said shroud is a home brew not sealed well to the fan blades.
More questions:
1. Do you guys typically run 2 smaller fans (as large as will fit) or 1 as large as will fit?
2. Do you use one of those temp. sense switches, on at say 185, off at 175?
3. Scott throws caution at running an electric fan only, others thoughts on this if quality of all components is good?
(i can imagine I would install an overide switch to run full time in case of controls failure)
Back to the Taurus, once had the Ford regional customer rep. tell me that the reason the electric window motors died and windows stopped working (motors/gear box got wet) at 3.1 years old (out of warranty) was because I did not take it to a dealer for routine maintenance. That must have been why the trans started slipping at 3.6 years of age and under 61000 miles (out of warranty) and why the head gaskets went by 90k miles. Did I mention the rear tires wore very excessively due to alignment issue right from the factory? Maybe I'm confusing that with my 2000 era ford trucks that used to eat coil packs, blew spark plugs, head gaskets, and trans as well. Why I bought more Fords back then I'll never know.
Thanks all for any additonal feedback provided! Happy winter.
my radiator is square on mine so one fan fits great,. it depends on the shape of your rad,square or rectangle.
-
There was a time in the recent past where this fan assembly was the secret weapon: https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/ford,1993,taurus,3.8l+v6,1138766,cooling+system,radiator+fan+assembly,2181
3,500CFM low speed, 5,000CFM high speed. And cheap!
Runs with this controller: http://www.dccontrol.com/Multispeed.htm Not very cheap at around 100 bucks but solves the question about how you're going to drive the fans and when the come on and off.
A couple hundred for the whole shebang.
It comes down to whether it fits between your engine and radiator.
Gerry, do you know how thick the Taurus fan setup is, between the rad and the electric motor?
-
I always run 2 Spals, big as I can fit, with an on/off pressure switch in the water jacket. Usually on at 180F, off at 170F, or somewhere close to that. No shroud, to avoid blocking airflow through the radiator at high speeds. Works great, even on my 1000 HP Drag Week car. I've never had an electric fan failure.
-
I always run 2 Spals, big as I can fit, with an on/off pressure switch in the water jacket. Usually on at 180F, off at 170F, or somewhere close to that. No shroud, to avoid blocking airflow through the radiator at high speeds. Works great, even on my 1000 HP Drag Week car. I've never had an electric fan failure.
Jay how do you find no shroud in traffic I am thinking of removing mine I have no problems in traffic but on long highway drives I am sure my shroud is killing the airflow even with large airflow flaps
-
I just don't think I am pulling much air, fan blades are ~1" back from the rad. face and it has to pull through radiator and condensor, and even the oil cooler for part of it and like I said shroud is a home brew not sealed well to the fan blades.
Where the fan sits in the shroud opening (about half in and half out) is more important than how close the fan is to the radiator. In a car, you may not have the room for proper spacing of a belt driven fan within the shroud and kinda need an electric fan
Besides spinning the fan faster, pulley choice will spin the water pump faster which may or may not help your scenario.
-
For my own curiosity, what is the coolant capacity on your thunderbird with the 445?
-
i hope your not sucking the bottom hose shut on acceleration.i had that problem one time,every time i drove it,it got hot,when i slowed or stopped it got better.i revved it up with my hand on the carb and i saw the bottom hose suck flat when i revved it up.i put a spring in the bottom hose and it never happened again.
-
...
Gerry, do you know how thick the Taurus fan setup is, between the rad and the electric motor?
Four and a half inches. Here's a spec sheet from the manufacturer: https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=1407423&cc=1138766&pt=2181&jsn=8
-
I always run 2 Spals, big as I can fit, with an on/off pressure switch in the water jacket. Usually on at 180F, off at 170F, or somewhere close to that. No shroud, to avoid blocking airflow through the radiator at high speeds. Works great, even on my 1000 HP Drag Week car. I've never had an electric fan failure.
Jay how do you find no shroud in traffic I am thinking of removing mine I have no problems in traffic but on long highway drives I am sure my shroud is killing the airflow even with large airflow flaps
The Spal fans come with their own circular shrouds. Never a problem in traffic, even on a hot day. In most of my cars I end up with one puller and one pusher. Two pullers is better, if you can fit them.
-
This is great info., thank you everyone, I think I know which way to go now if I want to make the change, piece of mind is worth it I think.
The FE Thunderbird has ~5 gallon cooling capacity.
Sorry to bother but one last question, Jay you mention locating the switching sending unit in the "water jacket" do you mean some where on the side of the block or is the typical location on the intake manifold behind the thermostat ok? (Edelbrock air gap) I don't want to loose my gauge sensor so will have to figure out how to get both in the flow.
Thank you.
-
...or is the typical location on the intake manifold behind the thermostat ok? (Edelbrock air gap) I don't want to loose my gauge sensor so will have to figure out how to get both in the flow.
Thank you.
The most accurate point to measure your coolant temperature is the furthest point forward as the coolant is leaving the engine. If you can, get a later thermostat housing that has the boss for a coolant probe. If you take your temperature reference in the block, you might be getting the coolant being pumped out of the radiator, which is going to be about 20 degrees cooler than the engine discharge coolant temperature. The temperature deltas in the cooling system are fairly narrow between what goes into the radiator, what goes out of the radiator, what goes into the engine, and what comes out of the engine.
EDIT: Here's a link to a thermostat housing -1970 Mustang CJ- with a sensor boss: https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=819191&cc=1440951&pt=10337&jsn=467
-
I usually put mine in the intake, as close to the thermostat as there is a pipe fitting. You can use a Tee fitting, sitting flat, to accomodate your original temp sender plus the sensor for the electric fan. But Gerry's way is better, if you have a thermostat housing with a pipe fitting in it. Only downside there is if the thermostat sticks shut, you won't see an accurate temp at the sensor. Of course, with no flow through the radiator, what good would the fans do LOL!
-
Should check this out as well. Soft start and can use for AC. My brother runs one and loves it. Only runs as much fan as you need.
https://www.autocoolguy.com/home
Don't know if the product is good - - but spell check could help out a lot on that site
He's a one man business. The product is good tho. If you REALLY want the latest greatest these are the guys I'm looking at for my Fairlane.
Their fans put out huge cfm (they have videos showing testing) and their controller is about the nicest I've seen yet.
https://deltapag.com/
-
I use a probe and switch on the rad to control the fans.
You can move the probe around.
Most of the time I do not need the fans on.
Only in traffic at slow speed. Which I try to avoid. :)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Cx4Bd07W/IMG-20231012-153619997.jpg)
-
I run my pair with one switched along with the electric water pump and the other on a temperature switch in the thermostat location. Since going to the Spal stuff many years ago after seeing them used by the street rod community I have only had the second fan come on a few times.
-
I have a 462 FE , 501HP in a '57 Ford (small engine bay). I started with a "16" " Derale puller fan/ shroud, it even overheated on the interstate. (BTW I have a Griffin radiator). Next attempt was (2) 12" Spal puller fans on a custom shroud. They were marginal at best and did not keep the temp down after the AC was installed. I finally got the temp to stay under 190 using a Derale 7 blade 19" clutch fan/custom shroud (Hayden custom shallow clutch). The temp would start to creep up with the AC on so I installed a 16" Spal pusher fan that comes on with the AC on. My car would barely run over 205 with the carb I was using (tried everything to fix that too) so I switched to EFI. Now I can drive the car on a 100 degree, 50% relative humidity day in south Louisiana in stop and go traffic. A bigger radiator was not an option w/o MAJOR surgery. very little room between the engine and the radiator to boot.
Can offer more details/pics if needed and I still have the fans if anyone is interested.
Lynn
-
He's a one man business. The product is good tho. If you REALLY want the latest greatest these are the guys I'm looking at for my Fairlane.
Their fans put out huge cfm (they have videos showing testing) and their controller is about the nicest I've seen yet.
https://deltapag.com/
That looks pretty slick. I'd like to see the actual CFM reading through a radiator though.
-
I started with a .......................... . Next attempt was ...................... I finally got the temp to stay under 190 using a Derale 7 blade 19" clutch fan/custom shroud (Hayden custom shallow clutch). The temp would start to creep up with the AC on so I installed a 16" Spal pusher fan that comes on with the AC on.
We have been trough this time and again over the decades at our shop here in Florida (it does get hot & humid! ::)) and this is pretty much the normal process that many of our customers have followed (though also including a flex-fan vs. just the clutch-type) and the final conclusion established in instances where the cooling systems' capabilities are truly being tested. ;)
These repeated experiences are what led to my previous statement of:
In these older type chassis, for one's typical "street car" use applications, and with consideration of what is typically marketed as, I consider electric fans as best utilized as being "supplemental", this to the existence of the best execution of the mechanical fan first. :)
Scott.
-
I will add a quick note regarding street driven FE's.
Many FE builds do away with vacuum advance.
The use of vacuum advance very much helps the engine run cooler at low speeds idling in traffic.
Use the manifold vacuum vs. ported vacuum source - as one does want vacuum at idle to add ignition advance.
In my Galaxie I have never had an overheating issue.
I used the same factory radiator that came with the car (390 2V) - even with the 750+ HP 503" 385 series engine (278/290 @0.050" 0.790" lift solid roller 12.5:1 CR, 5000 stall 8" converter)
I did change to a flex fan, engine never went above 180 degrees. Street driven.
-
Question for Scott- What would be your preferred setup? I have never been fond of electric fans, mostly because I like to keep things as simple as possible. More or less getting the job done with the least amount of parts, least amount of clutter, least amount of future problems. My build is a 66 Mustang with a 482" FE, contrary to my previous thoughts of keeping things simple, I did make one concession to run port EFI on a tunnel wedge. I have the big '68ish aluminum Griffin radiator and was originally thinking I would put a shroud on the radiator with a flex fan (simplest), or possibly a conventional fan/clutch. To 68 Galaxie's point, I do also have the ability to manage the timing at slow speeds as well. What are your thoughts?
-
He's a one man business. The product is good tho. If you REALLY want the latest greatest these are the guys I'm looking at for my Fairlane.
Their fans put out huge cfm (they have videos showing testing) and their controller is about the nicest I've seen yet.
https://deltapag.com/
That looks pretty slick. I'd like to see the actual CFM reading through a radiator though.
Here's some info pertaining to loss of CFM that you might find interesting.
https://www.240turbo.com/BrushlessFans.html
-
Question for Scott- What would be your preferred setup? I like to keep things as simple as possible. I have the big '68ish aluminum Griffin radiator and was originally thinking I would put a shroud on the radiator with a flex fan (simplest),
Yes I agree, it would seem that one should always start with the simplest possible solution first, and then prove that it is going to be necessary for something more complicated, more function failure prone, not to mention likely more expensive (one way or another).
I would attempt the mounting of the largest diameter fan based on space permitting (often in the '66 Mustang it is the lower radiator hose exit from the radiator that proves the first limiting factor we've moved these over 'some' in the past, don't know where yours' is? :-\); this fan generally of what we used to call an "R.V." style flex fans (deep-cupping blades shovel more air! ;D) perhaps something along the line of this: https://flex-a-lite.com/17-inch-silver-flex-fan.html (but do note that they are available in different diameters, and yeah, along with the aluminum radiator a coat of semi-gloss black paint! ::)); this mounted in conjunction with a well designed fan shroud (if not familiar with what makes for a better design do some homework :-\); with proper positioning (centering & exposure) of the fan blades in relation to the shroud; then with turning speeds adjusted with different drive rate belt pulleys (note that these fans can produce quite a bit of noise (by-product of moving lots of air! ::)) at higher turning speeds, but remember your changing the water pump speed at the same time so it proves to be a balancing act ???) as the goal is have the fan and pump turning at the speeds required in their respective responsibility in the cooling function, but any faster can prove to produce negative returns, including if only excessive parasitic drag on the engine (less H.P. for turning the rear wheels ::)); and then some air motion management under the hood, this particularly in attempting to limit the sum of air that can enter the engine compartment and under the vehicle without having had passed thru the radiator (this is one of the major problems of these older chassis, as air circumventing the radiator into these areas decrease the required pressure differential to aid in the air flow thru the radiator! :o).
So, the solution doesn't actually present itself as simply as one might have wished, if only as each instance is unique, but often in the effort to accomplish something in the simplest most efficient manor it's mostly just some thought effort, and acquiring the necessary componentry for the execution; oh, and yeah, probably involves a some of "trial & error" too! ::)
Scott.
-
Perfect, that's more or less in line with the original plan. The radiator is a Mustang radiator for a 67,8,9... FE equipped car, hopefully it'll give me a little more room for a fan than the original radiator. It is wider, but the lower hose is not offset all the way to the edge of the lower tank. Once I get a water pump on the block I'll have a better idea of where to start. I appreciate your input and the links you sent!
-
If you wanted something more O.E.M. in presentation, note that Ford also supplied a 7-blade flex fan ford the big-blocks, but these often seem somewhat coveted and therefore often quite pricey:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/155441372365
Otherwise there such things as this as a possible option also:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/184805950586?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&mkscid=101&itemid=184805950586&targetid=1645685074528&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9011792&poi=&campaignid=20133407470&mkgroupid=147476396765&rlsatarget=aud-1315132079929:pla-1645685074528&abcId=9312979&merchantid=108712546&gclid=Cj0KCQiA2KitBhCIARIsAPPMEhLSE8JwW-0NOMaQGyd-S-6awFvciFGTZC6GLI7BKAdOeziTUzp4kb8aAptMEALw_wcB
And there are others. :)
Scott.
-
I have one of those Ford "meatkleavers" like in Scotts post It moves alot of air
You can feel it pulling on your pantlegs when you stand in front of the car and
manipulate the throttle
I had it on the 66 fairlane i had, from the front you heard the fan before you heard the engine
OMG :o $500 for a rattlecan restored one with runnings i must check if mine is a cobrajet one
D0TA ? T isnt that a truck fan?
-
If someone wanted to avoid the "modern" electric fan radiator cooling application, Ford's OEM plan in the 1960's was a thermal clutch fan (usually included with air conditioning). Finding a blade to match might be a problem, but any local automotive A/C service shop should be able to supply a set.
re:
https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/ford,1966,galaxie,7.0l+428cid+v8,1332863,cooling+system,radiator+fan+clutch,6812
https://www.rockauto.com/en/tools/cooling+system,radiator,radiator+fan+assembly,2181
-
Show you what I run - you may not like it, but it works and I've ben running the setup for years street/track/racing, etc. Can control the staging temp with these, even in west Texas when the staging lanes are 140F+.
(https://raceabilene.com/misc/LT1fanA.jpg)
(https://raceabilene.com/misc/LT1fanB.jpg)
31x19 generic Summit Racing dual core aluminum radiator. Fans are off an 90s LT1 Camaro application.