HP VS Torque

[Drew Pojedinec]

Never mind see ya at the track lol.

All I was saying is you have lotsa *normal* parts to make 550hp.  The only trick thing you mention is fuel injection.
Good luck, love to see you hit 700+

[fe66comet]

I am thinking 675 @ 6500 and the heads with all the additional chamber and port work will be far from average. With totally reshaped and opened up heart chambers plus the bowl and port work. That is where the real gains will be. I wish I could have gone with canted valves and OHC but I am not that wealthy. Plus I got a 351 Windsor going at the same time.

[jimeast]

If you pull that kind of horsepower, and use it, won't you be at the extreme end of the blocks survivability?

[blykins]

I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything but honestly, you will be lucky to get 550-575. 

If your heart is set on 675-700 hp, then you need to bolt those heads on a 482-496, add a point or two of compression and about 30-40 more degrees cam with lift to match the heads.

[fe66comet]

I see 5.0 engines pulling 500 hp with a set of heads, intake and cam. Also reprogrammed ecm and mass air flow conversion. If I can't. Get another 150 hp over that with 150 more cubes than there is something wrong. The cam more than likely will go once I get things going. Something more like 650/650 290/300 114 degree separation. Initially I bought the cam with the intension of burning E85 but decided to scrap that idea. I have the converted Edelbrock 750s and dual quad intake also but I changed plans. The block should hold fine with staying under 7000 rpm. I am sure I will exceed 600 hp no problem with 445 cubes as most modern two valve engines with current technology get between 1.25-1.5 hp per cube. Given that the heads, induction and ignition is set up properly. Even the aftermarket injection systems with a four barrel throttle body are still a step backwards that is why the OEM did away with it. Basically I am using a FE block and rotating assembly and putting a modern mustang induction and cylinder head design on it. I have built small block Ford and Chevy engines with a good set of Dart heads that made over 500 hp with under 400 cubic inches.

[fe66comet]

This all kinda got me thinking, remember when 500 hp was a big deal on the street. Now it is normal just go to the dealer and buy a Mustang, Camaro or Challenger. Instant 500 plus HP with a warranty and 30 plus miles to the gallon. Man the competition is getting rough when a blonde haired bank teller spanks your big block LOL.

[BH107]

This all kinda got me thinking, remember when 500 hp was a big deal on the street. Now it is normal just go to the dealer and buy a Mustang, Camaro or Challenger. Instant 500 plus HP with a warranty and 30 plus miles to the gallon. Man the competition is getting rough when a blonde haired bank teller spanks your big block LOL.

New cars with big HP. It's funny, when the mod motor first came out, the DOHC 4.6 in the Cobra was a hot rod. Only 305 HP. A few years later Ford even got in trouble for the engines not making he advertised HP. Now 15 years later and lots of technology they are making 420 from the factory with a little more size, in a regular GT.

[blykins]

I see 5.0 engines pulling 500 hp with a set of heads, intake and cam. Also reprogrammed ecm and mass air flow conversion. If I can't. Get another 150 hp over that with 150 more cubes than there is something wrong. The cam more than likely will go once I get things going. Something more like 650/650 290/300 114 degree separation. Initially I bought the cam with the intension of burning E85 but decided to scrap that idea. I have the converted Edelbrock 750s and dual quad intake also but I changed plans. The block should hold fine with staying under 7000 rpm. I am sure I will exceed 600 hp no problem with 445 cubes as most modern two valve engines with current technology get between 1.25-1.5 hp per cube. Given that the heads, induction and ignition is set up properly. Even the aftermarket injection systems with a four barrel throttle body are still a step backwards that is why the OEM did away with it. Basically I am using a FE block and rotating assembly and putting a modern mustang induction and cylinder head design on it. I have built small block Ford and Chevy engines with a good set of Dart heads that made over 500 hp with under 400 cubic inches.

I specialize in Ford engines and have built a ton of FE's and a ton of SBF's, including big inch Windsors (427-445) and Clevelands.   I will tell you straight up that you won't see a 5.0 Ford making 500 hp with just a head, intake, and cam swap.  Desktop Dyno may tell you that, or a liberal dyno'd magazine article will tell you that, but it doesn't happen in the real world.

On the dyno I use, here's what it takes to make 650-700 hp...

1.  445 ci Windsor, with ported TFS TW-R heads that flowed about 345 cfm @ .700" lift.  Cam was 260/264 @ .050" Bullet solid roller, 109 LSA, .700" net lift, ported Super Victor intake manifold, Racetec pistons with 1.5/1.5/3mm ring pack, etc, etc.  It made 662 hp @ 6900 with 577 lb-ft of torque.  That engine used a Callies crank, Oliver rods, Isky Red Zone lifters, stud girdle, dry sump, etc.  It was around 10.7:1 compression, runs on 93 octane, Quick Fuel Q-950 carb.

2.  445 ci Windsor, with ported TFS TW-R heads.  Joe Craine ported the heads for this engine and for the engine above, and I'm sure you will understand that it doesn't get any more "heart shaped" than a TW-R chamber.  Cam was a 250/250 @ .050" hydraulic roller cam, with .640" lift, 112 LSA.  Massaged Super Victor intake, Probe pistons, Scat crank and rods.  It made 586 hp @ 6200.  Quick Fuel Q-850 carb.

3.  487ci FE, with Pond heads ported by Keith Craft.  These flowed right at 350 cfm @ .750" lift with 266 cfm on the exhaust side.  Again, a very modern combustion chamber with good port work.  Intake manifold was a ported Victor FE intake, cam was a Bullet solid roller, 263/268 @ .050", .700" net valve lift, 110 LSA.  10.7:1 compression ratio, running a custom Quick Fuel carb.  It made 638 hp @ 6600 with 567 lb-ft @ 5200. 

4.  487ci FE, with Pond heads ported by Keith Craft.  Same flow numbers as above, intake was a Tunnel Wedge, cam was a Comp Cams solid roller, 262/268 @ .050", .700" net valve lift, 108 LSA, 10.5:1, running a pair of Quick Fuel carbs.  It made 622 hp @ 6400, with 589 lb-ft @ 4600. 

5.  Building a 496 FE right now, with Keith Craft's Stage 3 Edelbrocks.  Heads should flow between 360-370 @ .750".  This is not a cheap build, with a custom Scat forged crank, Super Light, cut for SBC rod journal size, running Oliver rods, Diamond pistons with a .043/.043/3mm ring pack, cam is a Bullet solid roller 270/280 @ .050", .750" net lift, 112 LSA, with 11:1 compression and a Tunnel Wedge.  This is a 7500 rpm engine, and I hope to make 700 hp with it on pump gas. 

Now, I will say this....the Stuska dyno that I use is about 5-6% low compared to the Super Flow across town, and a DTS that I've used in Cincinnati.  However, the point I'm trying to make is that it takes a whole lot of engine to make an honest 600 hp, and even more specialized parts than that to make 675-700. 

I'm sure your heads are top notch if Barry set them up, but a heart shaped chamber is not going to make the difference between 550 hp and 675.   They may flow 350 cfm as you say, but at what lift is it?  .700"?  .750"?  What do they flow at .600"?  By the time you look at your cam, factor in discrepancies in rocker arm ratio, pushrod deflection, valvetrain geometry mismatches, etc., you're probably looking at around .590" lift at the valve. 

A cam with only 230° @ .050" is a truck cam in a 445.  You should at least be looking at 10 degrees more duration, and probably a switch to a solid roller.  FE's don't like hydraulic rollers above 6000-6200 and unless you've hooked up with Barry and snagged a set of his EMC lifters, your FE won't like the rpms either.  I've built a lot of hydraulic roller FE's, and have played with oil pressure, spring pressure, lifter preload, etc., and you just can't get to the higher rpms without some specialized block work, cam profiles, valve springs (more pressure than your beehives will have), and lifters. 

Again, I'm saying all of this to try and help you out, as I think you're very methodical in your planning and execution.  However, you simply don't have enough engine to get into the 600's.  My advice would be to shy away from the computer simulations, magazine articles, and pick the brains of a few FE specialized engine builders.

[ScotiaFE]

But Brent, all V8`s with fancy valve covers make 500 HP.
You know that.

[My427stang]

FWIW  In this post I had no idea you had such high hp and rpm goals

http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=1974.0

The cam you have now is probably a 475-500 horse cam assuming the heads are as good as you say.  The cam you were asking about would have made less at the peaks.

I agree with Brent, if you do want that RPM and looking to hit a number like that, you'll need a bit more.  Your induction seems to meet the requirements, double the airflow on the intake side for a good WAG on potential if everything matches., but to hit your big numbers, you'll need more cam, probably significantly more compression to take advantage of it, and don't ignore primary pipe size.  I'd run a 2 inch primary pipe once you get it all matched

Keep in mind, even then, that's a lot to ask for a 4.08 inch bore.  Good luck, sounds like a very cool project, especially with the EEC-IV and the cool intake combo

[fe66comet]

I already ordered a set of 627 Doug's headers, they should do the trick I think. They are 2" primary with a 3.5 collector then I am running into a 3.5 x pipe with dumps. After that I am using two 3.5 strait through GESI cats into two Borla 3.5 stainless packed strait through perforated tube mufflers. To keep thing quiet I am going with a set of Vibrant strait through  resonators behind the rear wheels. I upsized everything due to the availability of header size, technically I require 1 7/8 primaries with a 3" collector and a 54" tube length. Obviously those would be a custom part and restrictive on available space so I upped the tube to compensate and used the longest primary I could find.

[My427stang]

What are you using to calculate the primary tubes?

1 7/8 and 54" looks like a second harmonic calculation and size looks like it's driving a low rpm peak.  Matter of fact, both dimensions are intended for low rpm torque and not at all what it would want for a 6200+ rpm peak. 

I certainly think your motor, as built, will like the 1 7/8, but to pull the numbers you are thinking it will make on top, length would be between 24 and 34 inches IMHO and somewhere closer to 2 inch primaries.

Let me reiterate though, that it looks like an awesome, well matched, 475-500 horsepower cruiser, from inlet to tailpipe, but I cannot figure for the life of me how you are adding up to the power and rpm range you think you'll be running.

My 489 is a well blueprinted hot rod.  EEC-IV with all the tricks, ported intake, oversize TB and MAF, heads done well for an Edelbrock, although slightly less head flow than you (only slightly), it's dialed in to a knife edge, has a lot more cam, and I couldn't imagine the numbers you are estimating.

This is fun bench racing, so please don't take offense but I am at a loss of what is driving these hp/tq and rpm estimates and add the exhaust calcs, something is not jiving

[chilly460]

Should be interesting to see how it works out.  Barry's 433 did 711hp at engine masters this year, at or below 6500rpm, so it can be done without going nuts on the cam.  I believe Barry has posted some particulars on that motor, not sure on cam specs, but can make an assumption that it's not too wild on duration based on RPM.  Assume it's an aggressive lobe.  These motors were hydraulic roller and limited to 11.5:1, so again there is nothing too racy in those specs.  No titanium valves allowed so it's a well sorted package to get a steel valve hydro to rpm that well with an aggressive cam. 

I do not at all discount all the detail work and high end prep that goes into these EM motors.  They're also maximized for dyno time with ramp rates and ring tension that may not really be feasible for a true street motor. I think everyone would agree that a typical combo with these specs would be around 550hp for a pretty good motor, yet the engine masters guys seem to pull 100-150hp out of these combos without doing it with RPM.  Understand the heads are cutting edge and maximized for the combination, so that's a large chunk.  But still amazing what they are able to do. 

Possible...sure.....easy....no.  Would like to see what's possible with a package that will live in the real world?

[blykins]

Chilly, you are correct in that Barry's last EMC engine would be a good comparison here. 

Comparatively speaking, he was pulling to a 7000 peak, had a point and a half more compression, more cam, 20 cfm more on the head (and I would bet that the cam profile was using the high lift numbers), plus he was running a short deck block, which if he played the geometry right, would give everything a straight-in shot to the valves.  When you're able to move the heads around on the block, move the ports around, move the valves around, and move the intake runners around, you can get away from some of the inherent negatives about the FE top end.

With that being said, having done all that, it was a 700 hp engine.  As I mentioned earlier, it takes a whole lot of finagling to get the big numbers out of smaller engines.

[Drew Pojedinec]

BarryR also did it with a 4.350 inch bore and a Genesis Block which no doubt had thicker walls even at that bore than a 390 block at a 4.080 bore.