Author Topic: Please help me guys! Knocking and gurgling.  (Read 4087 times)

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428Marauder

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Please help me guys! Knocking and gurgling.
« on: October 26, 2016, 10:31:10 PM »
I think the head gasket issue has been resolved, so a new thread is prudent. Car is still having knocking issues after head gasket replaced.

When I got it back from the mechanic, the copper crap I used had plugged up the overflow. So, there was still an issue with coolant and that has all been worked out now. When I first got it home the rad hoses collapsed once it cooled and I was like WTF? Plugged overflow. Also, the mechanic did an oil change (is that required for a head gasket job?) and only put 5 quarts of oil, apparently the guy who sold me this motor said it's modded to hold 7. So I added some oil and Lucas to get it full and it's better, but still when it gets up to temp, pulling, knock and gurggle like it would if it was overheating. It's not overheating. Runs at 190. Aluminum rad, dual electric fans. It'll cruise fine at 70 MPH no problem, then you go up a hill, and gurggle, gurggle knock. Or you stop at a red light and have to get up to speed again, i gotta go really slow or it will knock. Running 91 only for at least 3 tanks now.

So, the first suspect would be this crack in the intake manifold:

http://imgur.com/ssrVNmy

The mechanic I just paid $1400 to for the head gasket job seemed to think this crack was not much of a real problem and quoted me an additional $600 for a replacement aluminum intake.

Sigh. So if that's the problem, I think I can do this job myself for half that. I already paid $75 in parts for the head gasket set ... Like $5 on Rock Auto.


Second suspect ... Timing issue overlooked? Has all new plugs and wires.

Eta: pic: http://imgur.com/0oz7yN5

Aluminum holley, electric choke, like 1 year old. Kickdown is disconnected.

Part of the problem here, the car drives FANTASTIC for 10 minutes. At temp the problems start.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2016, 11:40:38 PM by 428Marauder »
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Joe-JDC

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Re: Please help me guys! Knocking and gurgling.
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2016, 09:07:20 AM »
Sounds like you have way too much compression for 91 octane gasoline, and your timing is advancing too much.  A quick check would be to fill the tank with 93-94 octane and see if the knocking/pinging goes away, or is lessened.  If so, then you need to totally re-curve, re-time your engine and use only the best gasoline.  Joe-JDC
Joe-JDC '70GT-500

Tboggus

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Re: Please help me guys! Knocking and gurgling.
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2016, 09:10:53 AM »
Yes, if you pull the heads and intake off of an engine, you definitely need to change oil and filter. However, He should have seen that it was low after refilling it.

cjshaker

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Re: Please help me guys! Knocking and gurgling.
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2016, 09:37:17 AM »
Just FYI, that crack could easily be fixed by having it welded.
And I'm curious if the intake was cleaned? Was there any exhaust soot around the crack? Are your exhaust crossovers blocked?
Doug Smith


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ericwevans

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Re: Please help me guys! Knocking and gurgling.
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2016, 09:56:20 AM »
For the pinging I'm with Joe, it is either too much compression, or timing.  One thing to check is your harmonic balancer, is the timing mark in the right place?  The outer shell of the balancer (where the timing mark is) is rubber mounted to the hub, as the rubber deteriorates it will move.  My last balancer had the timing mark off by nearly 90° when I pulled it.
Eric Evans

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jayb

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Re: Please help me guys! Knocking and gurgling.
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2016, 12:11:44 PM »
Excessive oil in the combustion chamber can lead to detonation, so if the crack is allowing oil to feed back into the combustion chamber during overlap that could contribute to the problem.  But this would be a pretty minor pinging issue; what you've described is much more likely to be timing related.  I would be checking to make sure that TDC on your harmonic balancer is actually TDC on the #1 cylinder, and check your total timing; rev the engine up to about 4000 RPM with the timing light on it and see how much advance you have.  Should be 36-38 degrees or so.
Jay Brown
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- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Jim Comet

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Re: Please help me guys! Knocking and gurgling.
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2016, 12:28:57 PM »
Any chance your vacuum advance is hooked up to a thermal switch. Not exactly sure how they work but would change your timing when the engine warms up. Jim

cleandan

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Re: Please help me guys! Knocking and gurgling.
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2016, 09:59:41 PM »
I am not sure what this "gurgle" is you speak of. If this is part of the cooling system the only times I have ever heard a gurgle is if the system is too low on coolant or if there is an air bubble in the system somewhere.
The knocking is most likely due to timing like others have already said.
I see a new vacuum advance canister. Did you set the vacuum advance after installing the new canister?
Be certain and verify everything in the timing system is moving freely. The wrong screw holding the advance plate down can get in the way of the vacuum advance arm and cause binding. The vacuum advance arm may not be perfectly aligned and could be rubbing against the inside of the distributor housing, again binding at some point in its travel.
Verify TDC of both the piston and the timing marks on the balancer. ONLY after this has been verified can you move on to the next steps.
Check total timing with the vacuum advance disabled. Check initial timing. Adjust as necessary.  Once total and initial are set you are ready to tune the vacuum advance. Plug into manifold vacuum, not ported vacuum. Find a nice long hill you can drive up in high gear. If you have no hills load the trunk with about 500 lbs of stuff. This is to make the engine work a little under light throttle conditions. Drive up the hill in high gear while keeping as much throttle as you can without making the trans downshift if an automatic. Adjust the vacuum advance so the knocking is no longer heard while accelerating under load. Give the advance a tiny bit more turn to remove just enough more to be safe, usually no more than 1/8 turn.
Your timing should be all set provided you have the correct octane fuel for your engines needs. Good luck.

428Marauder

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Re: Please help me guys! Knocking and gurgling.
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2016, 09:27:42 PM »
Ok, so the mechanic said he set the timing at 6 degrees. All this stuff is beyond me technically, but I was able to loosen the dizzy and very slightly retard the timing. The vac advance is not new (to me) and the mechanic did mention that he thought it was weak and would need to be addressed but should "only be a performance issue".

So far after a couple test drives, the knocking seems mostly gone, quieter, but still there under load. The car also seems to kind of sputter at times, like it's missing. I will keep trying to get it dialed in.

Thanks very much for your help guys.
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cleandan

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Re: Please help me guys! Knocking and gurgling.
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2016, 11:05:23 AM »
6* initial is pretty low for an FE.
For learning I'll explain timing a bit. Everything assumes your timing marks and balancer reflect true TDC with #1 cylinder.
There are three kinds of timing. Initial or static, mechanical, and vacuum advance.
The initial and mechanical add together to make "total timing". The extra vacuum advance timing is NOT part of the total timing but does come into play for tuning and efficiency so it must be address correctly.
"Initial timing" is what you change when you turn the distributor in the engine. This is also the timing most know from reading a book because everything else just happens inside the distributor. This is best set with a timing light.
"Mechanical advance" happens within the distributor and is controlled by springs, weights, cams and limiters (posts, bushings, slots)
The mechanical timing requires some spinning of the distributor shaft in order to impart forces on the equipment controlling the timing and plate movements. This is best set with a timing light.

You must get into the internals of the distributor in order to modify the mechanical timing. There are a few screws, clips and roll pins that hold everything together. When removed you can take things apart to get inside and make adjustments.
Some distributors have everything right there under the cap (MSD) while others take a bit of dismantling, none of this is very difficult. Be careful to not lose the tiny parts or bend things. Inside you will find cams, reluctor arms with slots, posts and springs. The slots and posts limit full travel of the advance mechanism while the springs control when, at what rpm, the advance happens.
Last is "vacuum advance" This is controlled by the vacuum signal, diaphragm adjustment, lever arm, plate movement.
Setting proper timing for your specific engine needs is job number one in terms of tuning. If you do not have a good advance curve and timing, everything else you tune will be based off a poor foundation.
First thing to find is total timing and when it happens. This is done with the vacuum advance removed and plugged so there are no air leaks. Having the engine up to temp is helpful too but not required. With the timing light hooked to #1 plug wire read the timing on the balancer. As you raise the rpm of the engine the timing mark should smoothly increase in number. At some point while increasing rpm the timing will cease to raise. This is your total timing rpm as well as total timing of the distributor with regard to how it is currently set up. Let the engine return to idle and read the marks at idle. This reading at idle is your initial timing. Adding the initial and mechanical timing together gets you your total timing. If you know total and initial you can find mechanical with subtraction methods. For instance total is 35* and initial is 6*... 35-6=29. This means your distributor is set up to deliver 29* mechanical timing and the rpm at which this first occurred is also your total timing rpm. Creep up on this total rpm to best find the real speed. It is easy to rev more than needed because once the springs and limiters are overcome by rpm forces timing stops changing. This means your total rpm could be 2800 rpm but you revved to 3100 rpm and did not notice the difference. That difference is important so carefully find it. Once you know total you can then begin playing with initial as well as the advance curve (at what rpm things happen)

To adjust the total limits you must play with the mechanical limiters. This can be accomplished by changing bushings, bending tabs, opening slots with a file or welding slots closed to custom make a certain size opening. None of this is difficult but does require trial and error so you may be doing the job a few times before getting it just right. Do the math and things go quicker.
Adjusting rpm when things happen requires spring changes. Stiffer for later/slower timing and lighter for earlier/faster timing. You can also have different spring rates on each post to tune even more.  These adjustments are made to get the right combination between initial and mechanical advance to arrive at the correct total timing. For instance, your 6* initial and 29* mechanical gives a 35* total. A 15* initial with your 29* mechanical would result in a 44* total. With the 15* initial you would limit the mechanical to 20* to arrive at the 35* total from above.

Setting the vacuum advance requires loading your vehicle and test driving to determine best setting. We will leave that alone for now.

For most FE's running factory style iron heads it seems 35* total works very well. FE's also seem to like more initial advance and settings in the 14-18* range seem to be pretty useful. If you are running aluminum heads you can experiment with higher total timing in the 36*-40* area.
I suggest you try 15* initial and 20* mechanical for a total of 35* as a good starting place.
The total advance rpm will depend on a few things, vehicle weight, gear ratio, tire diameter and traction, cam specs and a few other things.
I suggest you try to have your total "all in" between 2800-3300rpm for starters.
If your mechanic does not understand these concepts I strongly suggest you seek a better mechanic.
I hope this helps you get going. Proper timing WILL make or break (literally) a good engine.
There are many factors effecting the exact best timing settings but this should get you pretty close.

428Marauder

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Re: Please help me guys! Knocking and gurgling.
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2016, 06:23:23 AM »
Ok, so I do not have the skills or the tools to do this. I have been trying to get the car ready for an 8 hour road trip. I am actually going to Vegas for a month to try and find a job. So, money is tight.

I'm going to take it back to the same mechanic. Hopefully the warranty for the $1400 bill I just paid covers it or at least hopefully will keep the cost at a minimum. It sounds to me like no parts will be required, but I may have to pay some more labor.

I will try and sweet talk him into doing a good timing job for a good review on the internet. Does that sound fair?

He said I would be happy with how the car runs, or maybe he said, "I think you will be happy", I'm not sure, but he said I would be happy with how it runs and I'm still not. He missed some basic stuff when he returned the car to me, like a clogged overflow and low oil. Too be fair I didn't tell him it needs 7 quarts and it was the Alumaseal that I put in the radiator that clogged the overflow.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2016, 06:37:53 AM by 428Marauder »
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Tboggus

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Re: Please help me guys! Knocking and gurgling.
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2016, 08:15:46 AM »
It does have an oil dipstick, right? That reads full when it's full, right? If it does, it is his fault it wasn't full. And if you told him you put the sealer in it, he should have made sure the cooling system was working correctly, before giving the car back to you. I'm not trying to trash the guy but these are simple things, especially the oil level. If I change the oil on a vehicle, the very last thing I do before it hits the road is to recheck the level to be sure it's correct.

428Marauder

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Re: Please help me guys! Knocking and gurgling.
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2016, 11:32:57 AM »
To be fair there is a notch on the dipstick that is where it should be filled above the original mark of full. You might have to know it was there.

All that being said the guy said that he would be happy to set the base timing, which I assume means almost nothing and dealing with "internal distributor parts" would incur more costs.

Maybe I should just put in an MSD.
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428Marauder

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Re: Please help me guys! Knocking and gurgling.
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2016, 08:29:13 PM »
Well she made it to Vegas boys! She did have one quick blowback, backfire hissy fit, about 100 miles in, which at the time was the furthest I have ever driven her. Was pretty severe, as backfiring goes, I pulled over and everything seemed fine, put a quart of oil in it, started right up and on down the road. I did notice later, a thin film of oil all over the back bumper. At the next fillup I noticed something dripping from the oil filter. Smelled it, and it was fuel. Did see it was dripping from somewhere up near the carb, but not sure where from. Wasn't near any hot wires, and not severe enough to locate or cause any major fuel consumption issues, so I continued. I have a fire extinguisher under the front seat, just in case.

There were hills, and she did knock when we had to go up them, but I took it slow and easy. I was expecting more flat roads. I did find myself at one point going almost 100 MPH without even trying.

Unfortunately, I will likely sell her fairly soon. I need something more practical.

ETA: the thin film of oil on the back bumper I think was kicked up by the tires after I had some spillage adding the first quart of oil.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2016, 09:46:19 PM by 428Marauder »
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