CVR Electric Water Pump Adapters for the FE

[jayb]

A while back when I was struggling to adapt a Meziere 55 gpm electric water pump for a 385 series Ford onto my high riser engine, the topic of adapting a CVR electric pump to an FE came up.  Meziere doesn't make one of their big 55 gpm pumps for an FE, and I have called them twice asking about using one of their lower capacity pumps on a high horsepower engine, and both times they've told me that it is likely I'd have cooling problems on the street with anything less than their 55 gpm unit.  Since they don't make a 55 gpm unit for an FE, they suggested one of their remote pumps, but that didn't really fit my high riser program, so I ended up using the 55 gpm 385 series pump instead, and adapting it to my high riser.  But the CVR pump looks like a very interesting alternative to this approach, especially given the $500 price tag of the Meziere pump.  It is also claimed to be a 55 gpm pump, and it uses kind of a modular design, where you buy the center section ($243 at Summit) and then buy the adapters required to bolt the center section onto your engine.  Of course, they don't make these adapters for an FE   But the adapters didn't look all that difficult to machine.  One of our forum members sent me one of these pumps for measurements, so that I could try to develop a CNC program to machine the adapters.  Below are a couple of photos of the CVR pump center section:





The link below is for the adapters for this pump, used with a small block Ford engine:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CVS-8302CL/

The 55 gpm CVR pump would resolve the flow capacity issue that some of us face with the standard FE Meziere pumps.  But when I was thinking about this, another issue came up, and that involves the attachment of accessories on the engine.  None of the electric water pumps I've seen address this; there just aren't any mounting holes or bosses available on the aftermarket electric pumps for the factory brackets.  Here's a picture of the front of an Edelbrock water pump, showing the five mounting bosses and holes used for various purposes on FE engines:



It sure would be nice to have the water pump adapters have these mounting bosses, especially the ones on the engine's right side, so that the factory alternator brackets could be used.  Last night and this morning I spent some time starting to draw the adapters up on my CAD program, and have figured out that I can probably machine the adapters to include these bosses.  The bad news is that the machining program would be rather complex, and would also require each of the adapters to be set up in four different positions to complete all the machining operations.  This would make the adapters relatively expensive compared to adapters that just mounted the pump, because those could be machined in just two setup positions.

Let's say just as a ballpark figure the standard adapters would cost $120 per pair, and the ones with the bosses would cost $200 per pair.  What do you guys think, would it be worth it to include the mounting bosses and holes for the factory brackets, or not?  All comments welcomed - Jay

[sixty9cobra]

I would go for the one with the bosses. Unfortunately your getting close to the 500 dollar Meziere. For the extra money you dont have to make all kinds adaptors to mount your alternator and power steering. How much HP do you think an electric water pump frees up?

[afret]

Would the water pump with adapter stick out no more a regular belt driven pump so there would be enough clearance for a puller electric fan mounted on a radiator?

The bosses would make it simpler for street use but either way you would be providing a much needing product.   

[fetorino]

Jay I'd say from a marketing standpoint the bosses at the additional cost would make sense.  For the $450 total price a guy would get a 55gpm pump and NOT have to spend additional $$ on specialty brackets for Their build. 

Sure some guys, including me wouldn't mind the $370 total with no bosses since we may be looking to make specialty brackets for accessories anyway but either way the pump isn't cheap but it is usable.

True you are getting close to the Meziere price but I don't think everyone realizes at that price from Meziere they either get: not enough flow, or still have to build specialty adapters (as you did) to make the big pump work.

[ToddK]

Just thinking out loud here, but would it be possible to mill/machine an existing water pump, such as the Edelbrock, to adapt an electric water pump? Much in the same way as the big block Chrysler set up, where the housing and pump are two separate pieces?

[jayb]

I would go for the one with the bosses. Unfortunately your getting close to the 500 dollar Meziere. For the extra money you dont have to make all kinds adaptors to mount your alternator and power steering. How much HP do you think an electric water pump frees up?

I really don't know how much power an electric water pump is worth, but I would guess 10-15 HP.  Sounds like a good dyno test, actually.  One other thing - the $500 Meziere still needs adapters to bolt to the FE (which are not available; I had to machine my own), and it also doesn't allow the factory accessories to bolt on.

[jayb]

Would the water pump with adapter stick out no more a regular belt driven pump so there would be enough clearance for a puller electric fan mounted on a radiator?

The bosses would make it simpler for street use but either way you would be providing a much needing product.   

Keeping the electric pump inside the factory space envelope would be the objective, so installing a puller electric fan should be no problem.

[jayb]

Jay I'd say from a marketing standpoint the bosses at the additional cost would make sense.  For the $450 total price a guy would get a 55gpm pump and NOT have to spend additional $$ on specialty brackets for Their build. 

Sure some guys, including me wouldn't mind the $370 total with no bosses since we may be looking to make specialty brackets for accessories anyway but either way the pump isn't cheap but it is usable.

True you are getting close to the Meziere price but I don't think everyone realizes at that price from Meziere they either get: not enough flow, or still have to build specialty adapters (as you did) to make the big pump work.

I guess there is no reason I couldn't do both types, come to think of it...

[jayb]

Just thinking out loud here, but would it be possible to mill/machine an existing water pump, such as the Edelbrock, to adapt an electric water pump? Much in the same way as the big block Chrysler set up, where the housing and pump are two separate pieces?

The impeller on the electric pumps looks a lot different than on a factory mechanical pump, and I don't think you could make that work real easily.  The shape of the impeller cavity and the relationship between the impeller and the cavity has a large impact on the flow capability of the pump.  On the other hand, I might be able to do a casting at some point with the correct cavity shape, that one of these pumps could bolt into.  That's a more involved project, though...

[amdscooter]

I'm far from an expert here but it sure seems as if it'd be possible to use a "pancake" electric motor in the space behind the pump. Perhaps use the plate back there as a template. Wonder how much impeller/torque you'd actually need to keep the water moving through the circuit? 

[thatdarncat]

How much HP do you think an electric water pump frees up?

A few years ago I switched my '67 Mustang with a 428 that I regularly drag race from a stock water pump and a Ford flex fan to a Meziere electric and an electric fan. I've made hundreds of passes and keep a logbook. With no other changes the car went from 12.20's to 11.70's. I was expecting an improvement, but was surprised at half a second. I did have to change from my 1G 60 amp alternator to a 3G 130 amp, and having bosses for the alternator mount would have saved a lot of work.

[machoneman]

I would have checked my gas tank to be sure no one slipped about 5 gallons of 100% nitro in when I wasn't looking! LOL! A 1/2 second gain is mighty suspect IMHO as even a 75hp increase wouldn't equal a 1/2 second gain in an already low 12 second car. 

HR says less than 10 hp for the pump:

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/hrdp_1201_baseline_testing_do_water_pumps_suck_power/

[Chad D]

I would have checked my gas tank to be sure no one slipped about 5 gallons of 100% nitro in when I wasn't looking! LOL! A 1/2 second gain is mighty suspect IMHO as even a 75hp increase wouldn't equal a 1/2 second gain in an already low 12 second car. 

HR says less than 10 hp for the pump:

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/hrdp_1201_baseline_testing_do_water_pumps_suck_power/

It was the pump and fan in this case, but I agree, a half second is an awful lot.  The MPH difference (not mentioned) might tell a different story.  Perhaps thatdarncat will fill in that detail.

[machoneman]

True, and I can't readily find the 2003 Car Craft fan dyno test. I don't btw doubt the car picked up the 1/2 second but find it hard to accept it was only due to the electric pump AND fan not turning during a run. More details would help.

[thatdarncat]

MPH went from 110-110.5 to 113-113.5, so a 3mph gain. I made the change in 2005. And again, I agree, I was surprised too. And to clarify, the alternator change wasn't made until the next season. As they say, "your results may vary". Don't want to take away from Jay's post on the Pump adaptors, but it would be interesting to hear others experiences. Also, weight of car is 3400 pounds with me in it as raced, 3200 pounds on it's own.

[ScotiaFE]

I plugged those numbers into a calculator and it bruped out
53 HP gain.
That is completely in the range you will see GETTING RID OF THE POWER SUCKING OUT OF BALANCE FAN.

[Barry_R]

I recall seeing about 12HP....

[machoneman]

Found an excerpt from the May 2000 CC fan dyno test (the article itself has dropped off the 'Net's radar due to age but I do remember these numbers to be accurate):

 http://www.mustangsandmore.com/ubb/Archives/Archive-000024/HTML/20000821-1-001706.html

So, if our poster had the "worst case" fan setup beforehand and switched to a zero load electric fan/pump during a run (fan switched off, no pump turning) then that 1/2 second gain comes closer to reality.....still I wonder. 

[afret]

Any updates?  Got hold of a nice blue one.   

[jayb]

Before I can do those I need that trunnion table finished that I was talking about in the other thread.  But after that I will get going on those adapters; I told Rob I'd have them ready by around Christmas.  We'll see if I can keep that schedule (for a change  )

[afret]

Thanks!  Sounds good to me.

[jayb]

Finally got my 4th axis and trunnion table setup on my CNC machine, so over the last week I've been working on trying to make adapters for the 55 gpm CVR electric water pump to fit on the FE.  The four day weekend that is ending today has been a big help on this.  After starting on the drawings last weekend, this weekend I got to work on defining the actual machining operations.  I had to start with some pretty large stock to build these things, 6061 aluminum blocks that are 3" X 4" X 5"!  As I made up the drawings I tried to determine the best way to machine the part, and concluded that I could start with the block in the vise and machine some of the adapter, but then I would need a fixture to finish them up.  Here's a picture of the start, with the block clamped in the vise and one end of the block machined for the shape of the right side adapter that bolts onto the engine block:



The photo shows the end facing out, but during the machining operation the trunnion table rotates up 90 degrees so that the holes are facing up, allowing me to machine those and also to finish machine the outside surface.

Next I spent the better part of the day building the fixture for the right side adapter.  This was simply a set of vise jaws for the vise that had the shape of the machined end of the block cut into them.  I wasn't sure exactly how this was going to work out, but it came out pretty good in the end, and the jaws do a really nice job of clamping the part securely.  Here's a photo of the partially machined block clamped in the custom vise jaws:



With this finished up I was able to start programming the remaining machining operations on the right side adapter.  This took the better part of a couple of days, and I made some mistakes along the way, but overall for a first prototype the part came out looking pretty good.  Here's a couple of pictures:





And here's a shot showing the adapter bolted onto the CVR pump that fetorino was kind enough to send to me when I started messing around with this project:



Note that there is one small piece of the adapter that is bolted in place on the main block.  This piece is there to provide one of the mounting holes for the stock Ford triangular alternator mount bracket.  I decided to make this from a separate piece of material, because if I had included this as part of the original piece of billet aluminum, I would have had to start with 4" X 4" material, instead of 3" X 4".  The 3" X 4" aluminum bars are expensive enough...

Next I decided to mock up a normal Edelbrock water pump on an engine, along with the factory alternator brackets, and then remove the Ed pump and bolt on the CVR assembly to see how the fit was.  I haven't been working with any blueprints here, just measurements, so I expected to be off a little on some of the bolt hole locations.  So, putting the Ed pump on first and getting all the brackets tightened before swapping in the CVR adapter and pump seemed like a good way to check everything.  Here's a photo of the Edelbrock pump on the engine:



When I bolted on the CVR pump and adapter I was pleasantly surprised at how close the mounting holes were.  One hole should really move down about .050", but other than that everything lined up beautifully.  I did run into one unexpected issue, though, and that was interference between the CVR pump and the factory triangular bracket.  In order to make the factory bracket fit, I needed to file a small notch in the bracket; you can see it near the lower right bolt hole of the triangular bracket in the photos above and below.  Seemed like no big deal, though, and the bracket is still perfectly functional.  I also could have machined a corner off the CVR pump itself to allow the factory bracket to fit without interference, but since it isn't my pump I decided I'd better not do that 



Here's another shot of the area behind the pump with a Shelby timing cover installed.  I assume that the standard Ford timing cover will also fit, but I need to check that to be sure before I finalize the design.  But in any case, there is clearance from the back of the CVR pump to the timing cover:



Finally, just to check the front extension of the CVR pump as compared to an Edelbrock or stock pump, I bolted the Ed pump to the left side water pump mounting hole and took the picture below.  The Edelbrock pump sticks out about 1/2" farther than the CVR pump, so there should be no concerns about the CVR pump being too close to the radiator:



I need to make a few minor modifications to the machining programs, but the right side adapter is pretty much complete at this point.  For the left side adapter I have to start from scratch again, making the drawing, machining the block, and then making up a second set of vise jaws for fixturing the left side so the machine work can be completed.  This will take me at least another couple of weeks to get finished, but hopefully by the end of January I can be manufacturing these things for people who may want them.  It will be nice to have a 55 gpm electric pump available that bolts onto the FE...

[machoneman]

Very cool Jay and the pics are great.

[afret]

Looks great.  Looking forward to buying a set.  Thanks for doing all that hard work.

BTW, will the adapters use o-ring seals or regular gaskets?

[fe66comet]

I just have to ask why go through all that when you can buy a pump that goes right in like the Meziere HD I am going with?

[jayb]

I just have to ask why go through all that when you can buy a pump that goes right in like the Meziere HD I am going with?

Two reasons.  First, the Meziere pumps are not available in 55 gpm for the FE; they sell a 35 gpm and a 42 gpm.  If you call Meziere and tell them you have a 650 HP street engine, they will tell you that their FE pumps are not big enough, and that you should go with one of their remote 55 gpm pumps.  So if you are running any kind of serious power (650+ HP), and you want to put the water pump in the stock location, then you need a bigger pump than the Meziere (at least according to Meziere).

Second, none of the aftermarket electric pumps allow the use of factory brackets for alternators, power steering pumps, etc.

The adapters I'm working on will allow retention of all factory brackets and the use of a CVR 55 gpm pump.

[jayb]

Looks great.  Looking forward to buying a set.  Thanks for doing all that hard work.

BTW, will the adapters use o-ring seals or regular gaskets?

I was figuring on just setting it up for gaskets, because you never know if the block surface would be good enough for an O-ring seal.  But I could also put an O-ring groove in there, I suppose.  That would offer an advantage for assembly and disassembly.  I'll have to think about that...

[fe66comet]

I do know I gained 3 mpg on my dump truck just going to an electric fan. The fan/ clutch weighed a ton how much not sure but I gained some pep at low rpm also but it is not a high HP application for sure. I did not realize the meziere does not fit right on by application they state the heavy duty model has 55gph and the right mounting face kinda receiving I guess? As far as a better set up for the same price, where do I send the money order LOL.

[fe66comet]

OH BTW pumps are designed to a certain flow rate at a designed rpm rang, if you spin it faster it will not flow any more it will run dry on the suction side and suck air. You really have to start with larger ports and impeller. I would think adapting say a 460 drag racing high volume might work?

[jayb]

I think you are probably mistaken about an FE pump from Meziere that runs 55 gpm for an FE; they don't make that available as far as I can see from their web site.  And if you just compare one of their pumps with a factory water pump you will see that all the mounting bosses are missing, so no factory brackets will bolt on. 

Before I started this project I took a Meziere 55 gpm pump for a 429-460 and adapted it to my high riser engine.  That was such a pain in the neck that I decided I'd be better off starting with the CVR pump...

[fetorino]

Jay

That adapter is looking pretty slick.  I know a guy that would buy a set from you.

Rob

[Rory428]

Those adapter/mounting brackets look great Jay! Would you be selling a complete setup including the 55 GPM CVR pump and adapters, on just the adapters alone? Any idea on pricing yet? As for the Meziere remote setup, one of the racers in our stickshift group has a mid 9 SB MoPar powered 69 Dart with a complete Meziere cooling system. It has an aluminum radiator with remote water pump attatched directly to the side tank. It is a beautiful piece of engineering, it looks and works great. Not sure on the price however.
As for electric water pumps in general, both my FE Fairmont and SBF 85 Mustang currently use Moroso electric water pump drives with cogged belts, and "normal" water pumps. (Edelbrock on the 427, stock aluminum 5.0 Mustang unit on the Mustang.) I have ran the stock V belt set up on the Fairmont, along with an old lightweight green Flexalite fiberglass fan. There was just a stock single groove crank pulley, a large Moroso alternator pulley, and a stock single groove water pump pulley. Performance wise, the car didn`t go any quicker with the electric setup, the main reason I used the electric pump drive was so I can let the water pump run after a pass with the engine shut off, makes cool down between runs easier. I certainly wouldn`t run one on a street car though, as the motor is just a Ford heater fan motor. DalePs 67 Mustang still has a  stock style fan belt driven alt and water pump, and it runs 9.7s. Of course there can be considerable improvments by reducing parasitic belt driven drag. A buddy of mine had a bone stock 87 Mustang GT 5.0 5 speed, with slicks. Leaving at 5000 RPM, the car was running 14.2s at 96 MPH, Just for fun, he cooled the car down, pushing it up to the front of staging lanes, and totally removed the serpentine belt. The crankshaft was spinning nothing. The car picked up to a 13.9 at 99 MPH with no other changes.  Later I tried the same trick on my daily driver 302 5 speed street Fairmont. I removed both V belts in the staging lanes, and reinstalled them on the return road . My car also picked up 3 full tenths, although I imagine that all the stock pulleys were of a high speed variety, since in stock form, the Fairmont  was equipped with 2.47 gears in the diff. I imagine that was why the crankpulley was so large, to spin the alternator and other accesseries at sufficent speed.

[jayb]

Thanks Rory, glad you like them.  I'm thinking I'd just be selling the adapters, because the CVR pumps are readily available through Summit, but if there is a lot of interest I may contact CVR and try to get a quantity discount so I could sell the pumps a little cheaper.  As far as the adapters, I'm thinking around $200 for the pair; believe it or not, there is over $60 in aluminum bar in two of those things, and there will be quite a bit of CNC time in each one.

I should elaborate a little bit on my conversations with Meziere, so that I don't mislead anybody on that.  When I called them I was talking about a 650-700 HP street car, and the reason they didn't think that their FE pump could keep up was freeway driving in hot weather.  The specific example they gave me was if I was going down the freeway at 3000 RPM, a high horsepower engine needs more waterflow than their 42 gpm pump can provide.  They said that their remote 55 gpm pump would be no problem in this situation, but the 42 gpm pump was marginal.  This is a lot different than a drag strip application, of course, where you don't have the sustained heat buildup that you have at constant highway speeds.  So it wouldn't surprise me if their 42 gpm pump for the FE would work fine at the track on a high horsepower engine. 

The other thing I don't understand though is why Meziere offers a 55 gpm pump for a 429-460, or a big block Chev, or a small block Chev for that matter, and not for the FE.  Go figure...

[jayb]

Jay

That adapter is looking pretty slick.  I know a guy that would buy a set from you.

Rob

I kind of figured you might be in the market for those, since you're the one who sent me the pump LOL!

[fe66comet]

How about a Gilmore drive?

[jmlay]

I am just thinking aloud but, is it possible to move the lower alt mounts lower or rotate it down & to the left without requiring larger stock? This my move the alt up, could be undesirable as well. In any the proto looks great!

[machoneman]

That's a great story on the e.t. effects. I wonder though if you had repeated the same test (belts on) with a themal clutch fan, then no belts, if the e.t. gain would have been nearly as big. The now old Car Craft test data I had posted here and on the old forum cleary showed that, short of no belt or fan, a Ford OEM type thermal clutch and steel fan ate the least hp. Barry R also mentioned that it was about a 12 hp gain w/o any pump/belt (hope I am quoting him correctly). That is nothing to sneeze at but that 12 hp at the crank would be way short of producing a 3/10ths' gain! JMO.   

Those adapter/mounting brackets look great Jay! Would you be selling a complete setup including the 55 GPM CVR pump and adapters, on just the adapters alone? Any idea on pricing yet? As for the Meziere remote setup, one of the racers in our stickshift group has a mid 9 SB MoPar powered 69 Dart with a complete Meziere cooling system. It has an aluminum radiator with remote water pump attatched directly to the side tank. It is a beautiful piece of engineering, it looks and works great. Not sure on the price however.
As for electric water pumps in general, both my FE Fairmont and SBF 85 Mustang currently use Moroso electric water pump drives with cogged belts, and "normal" water pumps. (Edelbrock on the 427, stock aluminum 5.0 Mustang unit on the Mustang.) I have ran the stock V belt set up on the Fairmont, along with an old lightweight green Flexalite fiberglass fan. There was just a stock single groove crank pulley, a large Moroso alternator pulley, and a stock single groove water pump pulley. Performance wise, the car didn`t go any quicker with the electric setup, the main reason I used the electric pump drive was so I can let the water pump run after a pass with the engine shut off, makes cool down between runs easier. I certainly wouldn`t run one on a street car though, as the motor is just a Ford heater fan motor. DalePs 67 Mustang still has a  stock style fan belt driven alt and water pump, and it runs 9.7s. Of course there can be considerable improvments by reducing parasitic belt driven drag. A buddy of mine had a bone stock 87 Mustang GT 5.0 5 speed, with slicks. Leaving at 5000 RPM, the car was running 14.2s at 96 MPH, Just for fun, he cooled the car down, pushing it up to the front of staging lanes, and totally removed the serpentine belt. The crankshaft was spinning nothing. The car picked up to a 13.9 at 99 MPH with no other changes.  Later I tried the same trick on my daily driver 302 5 speed street Fairmont. I removed both V belts in the staging lanes, and reinstalled them on the return road . My car also picked up 3 full tenths, although I imagine that all the stock pulleys were of a high speed variety, since in stock form, the Fairmont  was equipped with 2.47 gears in the diff. I imagine that was why the crankpulley was so large, to spin the alternator and other accesseries at sufficent speed.

[machoneman]

The 55 gph pump for BBC's and SBC's make sense for the sheer volume of sales I'm sure, especially compared to considerably lower popularity of the FE these days.....sorry! Still, the 429-460 pump makes little sense either as it seems many more of these engines appear in off-road racing, tractor pullers and boats, few of which would want or need a  more drag race-oriented electric pump that can easily be shut off during a 1/4 mile only run. Odd, indeed.

Thanks Rory, glad you like them.  I'm thinking I'd just be selling the adapters, because the CVR pumps are readily available through Summit, but if there is a lot of interest I may contact CVR and try to get a quantity discount so I could sell the pumps a little cheaper.  As far as the adapters, I'm thinking around $200 for the pair; believe it or not, there is over $60 in aluminum bar in two of those things, and there will be quite a bit of CNC time in each one.

I should elaborate a little bit on my conversations with Meziere, so that I don't mislead anybody on that.  When I called them I was talking about a 650-700 HP street car, and the reason they didn't think that their FE pump could keep up was freeway driving in hot weather.  The specific example they gave me was if I was going down the freeway at 3000 RPM, a high horsepower engine needs more waterflow than their 42 gpm pump can provide.  They said that their remote 55 gpm pump would be no problem in this situation, but the 42 gpm pump was marginal.  This is a lot different than a drag strip application, of course, where you don't have the sustained heat buildup that you have at constant highway speeds.  So it wouldn't surprise me if their 42 gpm pump for the FE would work fine at the track on a high horsepower engine. 

The other thing I don't understand though is why Meziere offers a 55 gpm pump for a 429-460, or a big block Chev, or a small block Chev for that matter, and not for the FE.  Go figure...

[BruceS]

Jay, will your new adapters fit a 42 gpm CVR pump in case we don't need the "big kahuna" 55 gpm model?  I personally like the idea that your adapters will have the accessory mounting bosses.

[jayb]

As far as I know CVR doesn't make a 42 gpm pump; that is Meziere's size.  CVR only makes the 55 gpm pump in the universal style.

[fe66comet]

Don't mind my being dumb here but wouldn't a oil cooler help keep temps down?

[fe66comet]

Do you have any definite plans of selling them cause I shire want a set after noticing the 42 gph will not be enough to support my engine plans.

[jayb]

Sure, an oil cooler will help keep the engine temperatures down, but I'm not sure if it would solve a significant overheating problem.  I do plan on selling those adapters as soon as I have the machining operations finalized.  I'll put them up for sale in the classifieds here when they are ready.

[fe66comet]

I'm ready when you are, I hate to invest a pump that is inadequate as I want to run mine on road race and street. And do not want to destroy my new engine.

[jayb]

I'm working on the left side adapter today for the CVR water pump, and I'm in need of some help from you guys.  I don't have any of the brackets here for the accessories used on the left (passenger) side of the engine.  Has anybody got photos of a power steering pump setup on an FE car that mounts off the water pump on the left side?  I think I remember what those brackets look like, but I'm not 100% sure, and I don't want to build this adapter so that it interferes with the bracket.  That would kind of defeat the whole purpose of this exercise LOL!

Any photos of FE engines with left side accessories installed are appreciated.  Thanks, Jay

[fetorino]

Jay I miss read this at first.  Here is one I'll look for another better shot.



I'll go look at my Failrane and snap a picture

[ScotiaFE]

I could do some measuring if you need.
I have a 390 complete on a stand with power steering brackets and pump.
Still has the vintage belts on it. lol

[fetorino]

Jay I e-mailed you some more pictures.  The motor is in the car so it's hard to get a good clean shot.

[jayb]

Jay I e-mailed you some more pictures.  The motor is in the car so it's hard to get a good clean shot.

Thanks for the pics Rob, those are EXACTLY what I needed   

[fe66comet]

I have the pump brackets both installed and not for PS I could send some pics to you if you like Jay

[fe66comet]

Really I do not need them right now I could mail them to you, I have two different styles. One is cast the other steel.

[Heo]

I have a complete unmounted P/S set dont remember if
it mounts on the water pump i can check tomorow(late
night here now)and take pics

[jayb]

Really I do not need them right now I could mail them to you, I have two different styles. One is cast the other steel.

Thanks, I appreciate the offer, but with the pics that Rob sent I've got what I need - Jay

[fe66comet]

NP anytime I am no expert but if I can help give me a shout.

[fetorino]

Looks great.  Looking forward to buying a set.  Thanks for doing all that hard work.

BTW, will the adapters use o-ring seals or regular gaskets?

I was figuring on just setting it up for gaskets, because you never know if the block surface would be good enough for an O-ring seal.  But I could also put an O-ring groove in there, I suppose.  That would offer an advantage for assembly and disassembly.  I'll have to think about that...

That would be a good idea if there is enough meat around the passage to put a stout enough ring.

On the why build these debate. The Meziere pump is $433 and only flows 42 gpm with a 6-7 amp draw and 3,000 hr service life per Meziere.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mez-wp170b/overview/make/ford

The CVR pump is $243 and will flow 55 gph at 6.1 amp draw and per the manufacturer has a 10,000 hr service life.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cvs-8000bk/overview/

If Jays adapters are $200 that means you get a better pump for $10 more.

Then add the fact that Jay is building them to accept the stock alt and PS pump brackets where there is no such option with the Meziere and it really becomes a no brainer.

If he adds an o-ring that may be over the top.

I just want mine with serial #1 and an autograph.

[BruceS]

Rob, thanks for pointing those advantages out.  If your request is granted would those adapters be known as the Jay Brown signature series? 

[jayb]

Sheesh you guys, I don't know how I'm going to sign a piece of aluminum

[fe66comet]

Maybe you should start your own line of parts like Jay's ware or Jay's specialties or I know Jay's rocket FEs inc.

[Chad D]

Sheesh you guys, I don't know how I'm going to sign a piece of aluminum

Mebbe one of those new fangled pantograph machines ;-)

[jayb]

Well, a little wrinkle developed in this project today.  I spent most of yesterday and today machining one of the adapters for the left side of the engine.  In order to get one done as soon as possible I decided to do one of the versions without any of the bracket attachment points, so I could at least mock up the complete setup and check to make sure the whole assembly would bolt to the engine.  Again I made a few mistakes in the programming along the way, but got a pretty usable part in the end.  This week I'd also ordered one of my own CVR pumps so I didn't have to use Rob's to keep mocking things up.  Late this afternoon after I got the left side adapter finished I bolted it onto the pump and then bolted the whole assembly onto the engine.  Everything went together really well, and it looked pretty good:



When I ordered the water pump this week I also ordered one of the inlet tubes for the pump, so I could see how that looked in relation to the rest of the engine.  I didn't like what I saw when I looked at that:



The tube, unfortunately, aims right at the fuel pump mounting pad.  There is just no room to put a lower radiator hose on this tube in the position that it is in.  Also, the tubes from CVR are only available for up to a 1.75" ID lower radiator hose.  Most FEs take a bigger hose; my Edelbrock pump measures 2.1" for the OD of the inlet pipe, and 2.275" for the "barb" section at the very end, that the hose has to slip over.  The hose size probably isn't a major problem, but the location surely is.

The CVR tube that I bought is the short version, for a 1.5" ID hose.  This one could be shortened about an inch, so that the rubber radiator hose could be installed.  The larger diameter version, though, won't work if you just shorten it, because the edge of the tube would be too close to the timing cover; I don't think there's any way you could get the radiator hose to slide over the tube because it would be squeezed too tight between the tube and the timing cover.  Here's a picture of the CVR tube I bought, unscrewed from the water pump:



Just mulling over the alternatives, one option would be to buy some mandrel bent aluminum tubing, and weld a 30 degree bend into the middle of tube, to point the inlet away from the fuel pump mounting pad on the timing cover.  Or I could try to machine one with a bend in it, which would be very complicated but probably do-able. 

What do you guys think?

[fe66comet]

Could an aluminum street 45 work? Readily available and cheap.

[ScotiaFE]

I know when I did the Summit Kit Rad install it kind of through me for a loop when a stock
lower rad hose did not fit the rad, either did the top, but that was an easy one
I had to make one and it took a bit of doing.
Just something to keep in mind for the customer.

[jayb]

Could an aluminum street 45 work? Readily available and cheap.

No, the threads aren't the same.  The threads in the water pump are kind of an odd size, 1 1/4" in diameter and 20 threads per inch.  It would be nice if a standard AN fitting would just screw on there...

[fe66comet]

Hmmm straight thread like hydraulic fittings. Strait cut o ring maybe?

[fe66comet]

If it were me I would take a simple approach and weld a bung to the fitting that threads in, might not be pretty but effective. I did the same on my Afco radiator.

[fetorino]

From the world of nothing is ever simple.

They do sell a 16an fitting that you could run a 45 or 30 with female AN at each end off of.

http://cvrproducts.com/inlet-fittings/

Now if you want a clamp on hose you just need to find a fitting to go into the 45 like the CSR.

http://www.csr-performance.com/shop/product.da/csr993-radiator-hose-adaptor---16an-to-1.5-inch-hose

[afret]

I think you said the CSR pump was about 1/2" or so shorter than the edelbrock pump (toward the radiator) with your adapters.  If the adapters were made maybe 5/8" longer, would the inlet fitting miss the fuel pump mounting area?

[jayb]

I think you said the CSR pump was about 1/2" or so shorter than the edelbrock pump (toward the radiator) with your adapters.  If the adapters were made maybe 5/8" longer, would the inlet fitting miss the fuel pump mounting area?

If I extended it out 3/4" the inlet tube would miss the fuel pump mount.  The end of the CVR pump would then extend about 1/2" farther than the nub on the end of the Edelbrock pump.  This would be a good option, except that for one of the alternator bracket holes the water jacket in the adapter would be so close to the top of the adapter that there is no room for a threaded hole.  I could maybe change the water passage location in the adapter to give more room there; I'll have to look at that option.

Do you think that if the pump stuck out 1/2" farther towards the radiator than a stock pump that it would be a problem?

[jayb]

From the world of nothing is ever simple.

They do sell a 16an fitting that you could run a 45 or 30 with female AN at each end off of.

http://cvrproducts.com/inlet-fittings/

Now if you want a clamp on hose you just need to find a fitting to go into the 45 like the CSR.

http://www.csr-performance.com/shop/product.da/csr993-radiator-hose-adaptor---16an-to-1.5-inch-hose

Thanks for the links; there is a short tube listed on the CVR site that would at least allow a rubber lower radiator hose to fit on, I think.  I'll have to get one of those to check it...

[fetorino]

I hope the short hose option makes for an easy fix to run a stock configuration.
For me it would be no big deal since I could run the fitting on the other side.  With a dual pass radiator that would be better anyway.  Maybe something to think of also for anyone running 600= HP won't be running a stock radiator and could run the inlet on the pass side.

[jayb]

Bad news, Rob, the alternator bracket mount on the right side adapter won't allow the tube to clear on that side either.  I didn't think that was an issue when I was designing that side, but I had not considered someone who would be using a two pass radiator.  I'll have to look at that side to see if I can modify the design so the tube will clear.

It's great to get all these issues aired out on the front end of this project; this is a much better scenario than designing the parts and finding out about all the potential issues later...

[afret]

I know in my case with the CSR pump, I had about 1/2" clearance to the fan in the front.  I'd have to measure the actual difference with the Edelbrock pump tomorrow.   

[fe66comet]

I am running an an-20 hose so I will have to make a adapter regardless. My plan is to cut the tube back past the swedge and turn down a bung to fit inside. Then use a strait cut O-ring to -20 adapter . I could have the OD of the bung cut to the same thread but it seems easier to go route 1 and I already have the equipment to accomplish it.

[afret]

Was looking around and just thought about how much clearance the outlet will have from the damper.  I was looking at the photo of the outlet tube near the fuel pump mount and can't really tell from that.

[jayb]

I think there will be plenty of clearance there, but I will check that too...

[fe66comet]

What size damper I am going 7" or 7.5" haven't decided yet. Either way I am going to be running a different set up anyhow but was wondering what you based your estimates on?

[afret]

Maybe the easiest way is to just use the longer inlet tube which can be sectioned and welded back together at a slight angle to clear the fuel pump mount?  Just got to make sure it's in the right direction when fully tightened.

[jayb]

I thought about doing that Earl, but one thing about that idea bothers me.  Those fittings screw into the pump and compress an O-ring.  Every one could be a little different in terms of the angle where it finally gets tight, so it would be hard to include a standardized part with the adapters.  On top of that, with an angle on the inlet tube now you've got a lever that could act to unscrew the tube.  After a while with vibration and heat cycles in the car, if the radiator hose pulled down and the tube started to unscrew a little the hose could drop onto the balancer and you could burn a hole through the radiator hose, or maybe start to leak at the pump if the O-ring took a set and then the tube loosened.

I think I found a different solution today.  The tubes shown in your photo are what CVR calls their "standard" and "long" tubes.  The one I currently have is the standard.  However, they also have a "short" tube, which I think will get the tube outlet farther back towards the pump.  If the short tube was used, and a molded lower hose with an S shape was attached to it, you could clear the fuel pump boss on the timing cover.

Today I went to the local parts store and talked my way into the back room with a tape measure, where all the radiator hoses were hanging on the wall.  I picked out one that looked promising and brought it home.  Tonight the first thing I did was to bolt the pump and adapters onto my old 428CJ dyno mule, to look at the clearance from the pump inlet tube to the harmonic balancer.  There appears to be no problem:



Here's another shot from straight on the fuel pump mounting flange, showing the interference problem with the standard inlet tube.  Boy, that motor needs a cleanup 



With the inlet tube removed, next I stuck my molded radiator hose up to where it would be mounted.  Looks like it will clear the fuel pump mounting flange without any trouble:



As it is the molded hose sticks out too far forward, but I'll bet I can find one that will work now that I know that this one is close.  Or, this one could be cut and spliced together with some 1 1/2" tube to keep it from sticking so far forward.  I'll go back to the parts store tomorrow and try to find a better one.  I ordered the short inlet tube today, so hopefully I'll have that by the end of the week and be able to finalize a solution.

Another piece of good news is that when Rob sent me the photos of the power steering pump bracket, it rang a bell with me; I knew I had one of those things somewhere.  Tonight I spent about 20 minutes looking in the top floor of my barn (which is where all the old parts are LOL!), and I found it, along with the power steering pump my Mach 1 had on it when I purchased it.  So now I've got everything I need for a complete mock-up of both sides of the engine.  Assuming I can successfully solve the lower hose issue, its full speed ahead again on this project...

[fe66comet]

I have been watching each development as they come in the suspense is killing me!!! I think when its all over we will all breathe a sigh of relief Jay LOL

[afret]

Jay, that's a good idea, and seems like it would work.  Simple is good.     Would it be helpful to move the water pump just a little bit forward to make sure there's sufficient space for the hose and clamp?  Really appreciate all your hard work.  Thanks!

[jayb]

Jay, that's a good idea, and seems like it would work.  Simple is good.     Would it be helpful to move the water pump just a little bit forward to make sure there's sufficient space for the hose and clamp?  Really appreciate all your hard work.  Thanks!

Yeah, I was thinking about moving it forward about 1/4" to gain just a bit more clearance.  That would make it exactly even with the front nub of the Edelbrock pump, so it shouldn't pose any radiator or fan clearance problems.  We'll see how it works out...

[fe66comet]

Sometimes the simple solution turns the best result. Sometimes I will spend weeks re-engineering a project only to find someone else already figured  out a strait forword solution to a seemingly impossible problem.

[fetorino]

Bad news, Rob, the alternator bracket mount on the right side adapter won't allow the tube to clear on that side either.  I didn't think that was an issue when I was designing that side, but I had not considered someone who would be using a two pass radiator.  I'll have to look at that side to see if I can modify the design so the tube will clear.

It's great to get all these issues aired out on the front end of this project; this is a much better scenario than designing the parts and finding out about all the potential issues later...

Jay if the modular bolt on lower alternator mounting point was not there would the fitting work on the passengers side?  If so I know a guy who will take your practice effort and run with it.

[jayb]

Actually it wouldn't because of the way the adapter is configured to add that mount.  But when I do a right side mount without any alternator mounting provisions it will fit then.  That's probably what you wanted anyway, right? 

[fe66comet]

So how is the project coming along Jay any revelations?

[jayb]

I found a lower radiator hose that will work, and am just waiting for the short tube from CVR to attach the tube and confirm everything.  Got more machining planned for the weekend...

[afret]

Which hose did you find that looks like it will work?  Is it one that will work on a stock type radiator with the 1 3/4" outlet and is 1 1/2" on the other end to fit the water pump inlet tube?  You must have spent a lot of time at the auto parts store going though all their hoses.  Thanks again for all the time and effort you're putting into this project.

[jayb]

Its a Gates hose, application unknown but I have the number.  It is 1 1/2" all the way, so some kind of an adapter will still be required to fit a normal lower FE hose, but I've used those cheap exhaust adapters with success for that before, so that will be no big deal, I think.

[jayb]

So this week I worked on the water hose problem, and think I have a solution with the short CVR adapter (which came on Friday this week, after I ordered it on Monday.  Not bad, since CVR is in Canada.)  My trips to the radiator hose rack at the local parts store have paid dividends in that I found a pretty cheap hose ($12) that can be easily modified to fit with the short hose adapter.  After roughing in the right side pump adapter last weekend, this week I worked on getting that finalized so that the machining program was ready for production.  After test fitting the lower radiator hose and short hose adapter, though, I found that I had to move the water pump out just a little bit to get the hose to fit over the adapter.  So, that set me back, because all the G code for the machining operations had to be modified to reflect this.  I only had to move the pump out 1/8", so it is still not quite as far out as the Edelbrock pump, but that didn't matter; all the code still had to change.  So, starting Friday night I made another one, with the modified code and some improvements to the machining operations that I thought would result in a better looking part.  And they did, but I'm still not there; the finish isn't quite right on all of the surfaces yet.  One problem is that I'm using a long 1/2" end mill for some of the deep cutting, and it tends to flex when it cuts and leaves a rougher than desired finish.  But, its not too bad; here's a couple of photos:





With this version I added the scallops on the face of the adapter where it bolts to the CVR pump, so that matches up pretty nicely now.  I also added the groove for an O-ring that was suggested earlier; I'm beginning to like that idea more and more.  Who wants to screw around with gaskets if you don't have to? Anyway, I think I'll make one more round of modifications to the code for to this part to get the finish up to standards, and then it should be ready to go

Once I had the piece finished I bolted it onto the pump and re-installed it on the engine, this time with the power steering pump and brackets also installed.  This adapter is not yet set up for the holes to mount the PS pump brackets, but I'm working on that version now.  I figure that a lot of people won't want the version for the PS pump brackets, since a lot of us won't be running power steering. The photos below show the new left side adapter installed, along with the lower radiator hose.  Everything looks like it clears OK:









Also, when I got the new CVR lower hose adapter this week I also ordered the #16 AN fitting adapter.  Next week I'll pick up a #16 45 degree hose end, and check to make sure that fits also, so anybody who wants to run AN hose to the lower radiator inlet can do so. 

As usual, this is all taking longer than I originally anticipated, but I'm making pretty steady progress on this now, and am still hopeful that I'll be done with the set of four different adapters (right side plain, right side with alternator bracket mounts, left side plain, and left side with power steering bracket mounts) by the end of the month.  We will see.  Also I am still soliciting input on any improvements or modifications that may be desirable for these parts, so if anybody has any ideas on this I'd love to hear them.  Now would be the time...   Thanks, Jay

[fe66comet]

Probably another dumb question, my original pump has a hose barb coming out the back going to the intake manifold. I am sure you are way ahead of me on this Jay but what is it for?

[afret]

Looks good!

How far out is the short outlet from the timing cover?   The 1 1/2" hose in the photo below has one larger end that fits on a 1 3/4" outlet.  It needs to be cut but the straight section before the bend at the end should reach the short inlet.  Do you think it would work if I bevel the outer part of the fuel pump mount?

[jayb]

Probably another dumb question, my original pump has a hose barb coming out the back going to the intake manifold. I am sure you are way ahead of me on this Jay but what is it for?

Not a dumb question, because I'm not sure myself.  I think they call that the thermostat bypass tube, and again I think it's purpose is to allow water to flow in the cooling system when the thermostat is closed.  Those are blocked off on some high performance intakes, and you can run without them; for this pump you would just have to block off the fitting coming out of the intake manifold. 

Maybe somebody else can confirm the purpose of that tube? 

[jayb]

Looks good!

How far out is the short outlet from the timing cover?   The 1 1/2" hose in the photo below has one larger end that fits on a 1 3/4" outlet.  It needs to be cut but the straight section before the bend at the end should reach the short inlet.  Do you think it would work if I bevel the outer part of the fuel pump mount?

The short tube is very close to the timing cover; in fact I had to move the whole pump out 1/8" as described in my post primarily so that I could get the hose to slip on the tube without hitting the timing cover.  But that hose in your picture looks like it might work pretty well; I'd only wonder about the angle of the tube (viewed from the front of the engine) as compared to the angle of the hose in your photo.  Do you have the manufacturer and part number for that hose?  I could pick one up and see how it looks...

[afret]

Here's another shot.  The hose angles upward near where the inlet tube would be.



It's a Dayco 70782.  The Gates equivalent which I think is 20841 is different and isn't even close.

[fe66comet]

Looks Jim Dandy I think you put a lot of thought and effort into it. As far as the finish goes I think bead blast would look excellent and could be easily polished if desired.

[Heo]

Probably another dumb question, my original pump has a hose barb coming out the back going to the intake manifold. I am sure you are way ahead of me on this Jay but what is it for?

Not a dumb question, because I'm not sure myself.  I think they call that the thermostat bypass tube, and again I think it's purpose is to allow water to flow in the cooling system when the thermostat is closed.  Those are blocked off on some high performance intakes, and you can run without them; for this pump you would just have to block off the fitting coming out of the intake manifold. 

Maybe somebody else can confirm the purpose of that tube?

I dont know why they put it there but you get the air
out that otherwise that can gather at the termostat
and prevent it from opening and if the termostat
hung you have atleast some circulation
some cars that dont have some way of bypass
can be wery hard to get the air out of the system
if you drained the coolant and refill it
some times i had to drill a small hole in the termostat

[fe66comet]

I guess I could put a bleeder in one of the holes in the top of the intake. There are two NPT ports above the flange for the t stat. I would guess one is for temp and the other is for the heater hose?

[jayb]

Drilling a small hole (1/8") in the thermostat and then orienting the thermostat so that the hole is at the top is the easy solution.

[fe66comet]

I could do that but the bleeder is a common thing on late model cars as most have the radiator mounted lower than the engine. The stat in my intake is about an inch and a half lower than the heater hose boss so that is my high point.  Not sure what the in tension was for the bypass hole it is machined flat and not threaded. There is also not much material to tap it for a half inch plug so I am thinking a block off plate is in order there.

[mike7570]

Tap and install plug, it doesn't need many threads engaged. I think I only had about a 1/4" or so of threads on mine.

[fe66comet]

Mine has about 3/16.

[390 Cougar Conv]

Why not try a brass freeze plug and lightly stake it in.  Clifford

[fe66comet]

Was thinking about that and maybe some JB weld on the inside where it is not visible.

[390 Cougar Conv]

I repaired a timing cover once with JB Weld and some came off with the heat. Just a thought. Red loctite. high temp silicone just some ideas.  Clifford

[machoneman]

Yes, the OEM FE Ford hose & barbs (intake and water pump) were designed to by-pass the closed thermostat.  This was called out in old FoMoCo and Standard Oil Co. motor books of the time (geesh, showing my age!).  Drilling a 1/16" to 1/8" hole, as mentioned, into the sheetmetal flange of the t-stat's body and blocking the intake/pump holes with pipe plugs will serve the same purpose.   

See the very last entry in this link for 'by pass" and note too that the 292 series and MEL's had the same set-up.

http://www.squarebirds.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=10383

Probably another dumb question, my original pump has a hose barb coming out the back going to the intake manifold. I am sure you are way ahead of me on this Jay but what is it for?

Not a dumb question, because I'm not sure myself.  I think they call that the thermostat bypass tube, and again I think it's purpose is to allow water to flow in the cooling system when the thermostat is closed.  Those are blocked off on some high performance intakes, and you can run without them; for this pump you would just have to block off the fitting coming out of the intake manifold. 

Maybe somebody else can confirm the purpose of that tube?

[fe66comet]

That explains a lot, seems like they kinda over thought the fix by redesigning the pump and intake though. Then they needed to stock and produce more parts.

[fe66comet]

How far off are you Jay I am getting closer to final assembly and dyno time. Just need lifters and rockers and pushrods  when I am to the point where I can measure them.

[jayb]

I'm thinking two more weekends and I ought to be done.  Unfortunately this weekend I've had a bunch of stuff to do for work, so that has tied me up some, but I've still been making some progress.  No promises on this, though; when they're finished, that's when they'll be finished 

[fe66comet]

Its not Done till you say it's done like Brookstone's sour cream LOL. Not in that big of a hurry. I would imagine it will take some time to produce a set as you are not set up for production work.

[jayb]

Finally got the right side adapters finished up last night.  I ended up making some fairly serious modifications to the design to make the parts more machinable, but I'm very pleased with the results; they really look good.  I have both adapters (the left side plain and with the power steering brackets) finished up now.  Here is a photo showing the two parts; the one on the right is used with the power steering brackets, but there is a bolt on L bracket not shown in the first couple of photos.  Sorry for the yellowish cast to the photos, the fluorescent lights in my shop will do that sometimes:







Here's a couple pictures of the adapter that can be used with power steering, with the L bracket bolted on:







Next are three shots of the power steering version of the adapter mocked up on the engine. In these photos I have the #16 AN fitting adapter installed on the CVR pump, and a 45 degree hose end screwed onto that.  It clears without any trouble:









In a previous post on this thread Earl had mentioned a Dayco 70782 hose as a potential lower radiator hose to fit this combination.  I picked one of those up through Summit Racing, and test fit it on the water pump tonight using the short 1 1/2" inlet fitting I had purchased earlier.  I cut off the first bend in the Dayco hose and stuck it on there, and it looks like it may work pretty well.  The only issue is that it does contact the ear of the fuel pump mount on the timing cover when its installed, but I don't  think this would be a big deal; it doesn't seem like it could collapse the hose or anything.  Here's some photos of the pump with this hose installed:







Basically the left side adapters are finished up at this point.  This weekend I'm going to try to get back to the right side adapters, make some tweaks to the design and the cnc programs, and see if I can get at least one of those finished also.  I decided to bite the bullet and buy some 4" X 4" aluminum bar to machine the right side adapter with the alternator mounts; this way I don't have to machine a separate bracket for one of the three holes, I can make the whole adapter out of a single block.  Also, without the required bolt holes for the bracket  I can take some of the material in that area away, and this will allow room to put the water inlet on the right side of the pump if that is desired.  I'll try to post another progress update sometime Sunday.

[afret]

Looks great.  Thanks for all the hard work.

[sixty9cobra]

I might be me but that PS bracket looks funny to me. What car is that off of? Im at work so I can't go look at mine. I could be wrong maybe its the lack of the cast iron lower hose nipple.

[fetorino]

You're getting really talented with that machine Jay

[390 Cougar Conv]

Truly an art of it's own.  An Jay your the artist!!! Clifford

[jayb]

I might be me but that PS bracket looks funny to me. What car is that off of? Im at work so I can't go look at mine. I could be wrong maybe its the lack of the cast iron lower hose nipple.

That's the bracket that was on my '69 Mach 1 when I got it.  It looks the same as the one for Rob's Torino.  Maybe not the same as the one for a Galaxie or truck, but I assume that the Galaxies and trucks use the same mounting position on the water pump castings, so the adapters should still fit the factory brackets. 

[fe66comet]

Here are my truck brackets.

[jayb]

Thanks for those pics, looks like the adapters will work on the truck brackets with no issues.

[Chad D]

I notice there is no gasket on the timing cover, will your setup necessitate an RTV only seal to avoid interference?

[fe66comet]

From all the pumps listed on the Napa pro link site I could not find any part number variance per application. So I would guess one size fits all unlike Chevy with long, short, clockwise and counter rotation.

[jayb]

I notice there is no gasket on the timing cover, will your setup necessitate an RTV only seal to avoid interference?

No, there is plenty of space between the pump and the timing cover, like 1/4" or more.  Even a thick gasket will pose no problems.

Edit:  Forgot about the gap between the water pump inlet and the timing cover, which isn't that large, but a standard thickness timing cover gasket won't cause a problem.  Also, there is no gasket between the water pump adapters and the block, so if a gasket is used there, it would compensate for the thickness of the timing cover gasket.  If you use the O-ring, then you will lose the timing cover gasket thickness in clearance.  Again, should be no problem, because there is some extra room there.

[fe66comet]

They look great BTW looks like you about got it. Will they work in a bat mobile? Just kidding LoL

[cwhitney]

Looks Great Jay, Awesome work. Looking forward to putting one of these on my car.

[Brutalbob]

Jay, Regarding an earlier post here, I've found (depending on the belt type pump used) a 7 to 24HP gain with an electric pump. I'll dig the data out and send it to you as soon as we complete that huge engine order I told you about. Bob

[jayb]

Thanks Bob, that will be interesting data.  I wonder what causes the variations you saw?  7-24 is a pretty big range...

[fe66comet]

Another factor is the electric pumps ability to cool at any RPM I have had and driven many cars that over heat in traffic of low speed driving in the city or car cruises.

[Brutalbob]

Jay, If memory serves correctly the largest gain was a BB Chevy with an off shore pump we could hardly turn by hand before removal.  The least was a SB Ford that had a NAPA pump. Bob

[66FAIRLANE]

I have tried these Australian made in line pumps before with zero sucess at idle or speed. Maybe they just don't flow enough but I am a little gun shy of electric pumps after this experience.

http://www.daviescraig.com.au/Electric_Water_Pumps-EWP115__12V___ELECTRIC_WATER_PUMP___PART_No__8025-details.aspx

[jayb]

Just doing the math on the web site, that is a 30 gpm (gallons per minute) pump.  The ones we are talking about are 55 gpm, so they should be better, but I'm surprised that even with the pump you mentioned that you had cooling problems at idle.  Since the stock pump is running at a low speed at idle, I would expect it's output to be less than the electric.

How did you have the electric hooked up?

[66FAIRLANE]

Hi Jay

There is a bit of a story to this. When they first came out I bought one with a controller. It was hopeless. I rang them and spoke to a guy who told me the controllers didn't work properly and to just wire it straight in. I did and there was improvement but still was nowhere near good enough to cool properly. Shelved it.

A few years later they came out with a bigger unit. I phoned and went through my experience and they sold me one at cost and assured me the bigger one would do the job. I had also upgraded my radiator by now to a monster and was pretty confident. In short still nowhere near good enough. Tried with and without thermostat. Polarity correct (ie. water rushing in to top tank). The pump was mounted down by the outlet. Heres a pic of the manifold I made and the two pumps.

[fe66comet]

Looks like a.centrifugal boiler.pump off a B&G LOL

[jayb]

Hmmm, don't know what to make of that.  For what it's worth, that pump doesn't look anything like the other electric water pumps I've seen.  The 55 gpm Meziere pump on my Mach 1 cools the engine beautifully at idle and at speed on the freeway, when the car is running around 3200 RPM at 70 MPH.  Of course I have a good radiator and two Spal electric fans, but if the pump wasn't up to the drill I don't think the radiator and fans would matter.

Anybody else have some street experience with an electric water pump that they can share?

[mike7570]

Well not exactly street experience.
I used an Edlebrock aluminum water pump with a simple Moroso electric motor on my tunnel port race cars. The '67 had a large cross flow radiator and would not over heat at all. In fact I had trouble keeping it warmed up. The same engine and pump was moved into my '69 which had a small Sirocco radiator and it needed to be cooled down at the end of every pass. It cooled down okay but it heated up quickly also. I had trouble keeping the temperature down (just the opposite of the '67)
In my case with flow rates the same it was more important to have a larger capacity. Keeping it warmed up was easier to deal with than overheating. 

[fe66comet]

The pump pictured is a high speed centrifugal pump not very efficient for that type of application.

[afret]

Removed the obstruction to the radiator hose.  Should give a straight shot to the inlet tube.

[jayb]

That'll work!  FYI I'm still working on those adapters, but I think I want to actually put them on an engine and run it with them to make sure everything does what is is supposed to do before I put them up for sale.  Hopefully I can get my 428CJ on the dyno this weekend and run the test.  Then I've just got to build a few copies of the adapters...

[afret]

We know you have a full plate so no need to rush.  What are your plans for Drag Week this year?  Test and tune last year's combos in the spring to get them fine tuned and go with them?

[jayb]

I'm not sure yet, it kind of depends on how some of my projects work out over the next several months.  For sure I need to get the cars ready to go, but I have a feeling that when Drag Week rolls around I'll be in the middle of trying to get as many of the intake adapters machined as I can, so that may preclude my participation this year.  We will see...

[jayb]

Well!  That took a lot longer than I thought LOL!  Just got finished with all four versions of the CVR water pump adapters tonight, finally    Here are a bunch of photos; I think they look pretty good.

Here is the pair of the adapters that have all the mounting holes that a stock FE water pump has.  So, you can bolt on the factory power steering pump brackets and factory alternator brackets to this pair of adapters.  The triangular alternator mounting bracket has to be notched for clearance to the CVR pump, as shown earlier in this thread.  Also the top inboard mounting hole on that side, that the factory slotted arm bolts to, has been moved just slightly to clear that CVR pump bolt that is nearby.  It doesn't affect the alternator mount though; the fifth photo shows the whole assembly on the engine, and everything fits just fine:












So, what if you don't want to run the factory power steering pump, just the alternator bracket?  Then you can use the plain water pump mount on the left side, and the alternator mount on the right side.  Here's some photos of that combination.  The third photo down shows the water pump mounts on their side so you can see the O-ring installed in the base.  This is a 0.140" thick Viton O-ring that will handle up to 400 degrees, so there should be no reliability issues provided the block surface that it faces is not pitted or anything.













Finally if you don't want to mess with any of the factory brackets at all, you can just use plain adapters on both sides:





The right side adapter that mounts the alternator bracket took the longest to make, because I was messing around with different configurations to try to make it strong, and at the same time make it suitable for use with a dual pass radiator with its outlet on the right side of the engine.  I was able to make this work, as shown in the photo below, but if you are going to go this route you need to get the long water pump inlet tube from CVR, not the medium or short tube.  On the other hand, if you are going with the standard left side water pump inlet, the short inlet tube from CVR is what you want, unless you've modified your timing cover like afret did, to cut off the fuel pump mounting boss.  Here are some pictures of both inlet options:






Unfortunately I ran out of time this weekend to pop my 428CJ on the dyno, so I have not yet tested these adapters.  That will be next weekend's project.  Hopefully now that the CNC programs are finished I can start cranking a few of these things out for those who may want them.  Once I get a pair of the adapters on the dyno and confirm that there aren't any leaks or other unforeseen problems, I'll put them up for sale in the vendor classifieds. 

One thing about this is that I still need to do a couple more of these things, for the SOHC!  I really want to run one of these pumps on my big cammer in my Shelby clone, just to see how it will do.  But I think I will wait on that a little at this point; I'm pretty pooped out on the CNC programming thing for now.  Besides, I have another really cool new parts project I'm working on that you guys are going to get a huge kick out of; I'll post some details about that in a month or so, when I have the first parts finished up   

[fetorino]

Ye haaa  Those look like a winner Jay.

[67 Fastback]

Congratulations Jay,your engineering and technical skills you should be proud of ,not everyman is so blessed .In Australia we are also lucky to have guys with your dedication to the Ford Oval with a lot of new  Cleveland products being manufactured .All the best keep up the great work .

[lovehamr]

Damn Jay, you a purty fart smella!   That looks awesome!

[BruceS]

+4 on that Jay!  By the looks of those, it took a lot of thought and messin around to get to where you are now.  Lookin forward to hearing dyno reliability results...

Bruce

[fe66comet]

Definitely are much stronger than CVR adapters and the mount flanges cover more area along with the huge O- ring you used, I cannot see them ever leaking or the mounting ears breaking off. For extra security I will more than likely install stainless studs to prevent electrolysis from seizing the mounting bolts up.

[machoneman]

Very cool looking parts! Heck anyone using your adaptors had better shine up the rest of the FE parts under the hood or the engine itself will look sad....LOL! 

[afret]

Looks great.  And it looks like you even corrected the problem with CSR pumps where the o-ring diameter is too small to make up for the funny shaped water pump opening on the drivers side of a stock FE block.

Looking forward to getting a set with just the alternator mount on the passengers side.  Will keep an eye on the classifieds.  Thanks again for all the hard work to get this done.

[jayb]

Looks great.  And it looks like you even corrected the problem with CSR pumps where the o-ring diameter is too small to make up for the funny shaped water pump opening on the drivers side of a stock FE block.

Yes, why do you suppose Ford did that?  Instead of a nice round opening there is a point at the bottom of that hole in the block casting.  Go figure; I made sure the O-rings would go around that point.

[afret]

What length 5/16-18 socket head cap screws are needed to attach the adapter to the water pump?  3/4"?

[jayb]

Yes, 3/4" or 7/8".  FYI I will be including all the mounting hardware with the adapters, except for the 4 bolts that bolt the pump to the block.  The mounting hardware kit will include the 8 bolts required to bolt the adapters to the CVR pump (one of these is a special bolt), some 3/8" allen head capscrews to bolt the factory mounting brackets to the adapters, and the two O-rings.

[Black Galaxie]

Nice work Jay!  It's been said before, but still bears repeating:" thanks for all your contributions to the FE Clan"

Steve A

[afret]

Yes, 3/4" or 7/8".  FYI I will be including all the mounting hardware with the adapters, except for the 4 bolts that bolt the pump to the block.  The mounting hardware kit will include the 8 bolts required to bolt the adapters to the CVR pump (one of these is a special bolt), some 3/8" allen head capscrews to bolt the factory mounting brackets to the adapters, and the two O-rings.

Sounds good.  Thanks!

[fe66comet]

I can't wait to bolt it up my engine !!!

[69Cobra]

Very nice Jay!!! I've been wondering what I was going to do for a water pump on my Stocker motor and I think I know the answer now. The only question I have to a racing application is the 55 gpm flow to much? I'm not sure that's possible but will that give it time in the radiator to cool down before its cycled back through? I guess you could always put a restrictor at the t-housing if that was the case.

I know you're burnt out on this deal but I've got a question? In an all out racing application there has been performance increases with a reverse flow system where you are cooling the intake and heads first. Do you know what it would take to make this pump work as a reverse flow system? Electrically you would just reverse the + & - and that will spin the motor backwards but what about the impeller? Would what they have work?

[jayb]

My take on that is that you can never have too much flow from the water pump.  The thermostat will function to restrict water flow to the radiator, but I'm not sure that enters into the equation.  Not to open up a somewhat famous argument about cooling  , but I'm not one of those folks who believes that you need to slow down the water in the radiator to make it cool.  No matter how fast the water is going in the radiator, the same amount of water is contained in the radiator at all times, and the same amount of cooling per unit time is taking place.  While it is true that if a particular "parcel" of water goes through the radiator faster, it will receive less cooling, it is also true that the same parcel of water will go through the engine faster, and therefore receive less heating.  Thermodynamically, it all evens out.  Another way to think of this is that if you slow down the water in the radiator, as it exits it will be cooler, but then it will travel through the engine slower, so as it comes out of the engine it will be hotter.  Thinking of it in that way, the faster you can circulate water in the cooling system, the more stable the cooling system temperature will be.  If I could bolt a 100 gpm pump onto any of my engines, I'd do it.

Going reverse through the cooling system, on the other hand, makes a lot of sense from a horsepower perspective, because the water will be at its coolest coming out of the radiator, and the cylinder heads are where most of the heat is.  So, cooler water will absorb more heat from the heads than water that has already been heated somewhat by traveling through the block.  The horsepower gain is thermodynamic; keeping the combustion chamber and intake charge cooler by reducing the cylinder head temperature results in more heat extracted from the combustion process.  However, I don't know if you can just reverse the polarity of the electric pump motor to effect this change; I haven't taken my CVR pump apart to see if the impeller is directional.  I strongly suspect that it is, in which case a different impeller would be required in addition to the polarity change on the motor.

Maybe I'll take my CVR pump apart and look this weekend...

[afret]

On the stocker motor we just run a CSR 35 GPM pump with no thermostat and it works great.  The engine had the Moroso setup before the CSR and that one work fine too.  Took the CSR off the street motor though to use the 55 GPM pump with Jay's adapters to make sure the engine will get enough water flow for a drive on the highway.

Might as well use a 55 GPM pump though if you need to get a pump anyway.

[69Cobra]

Jay,
 I guess I didn't think about the water staying in the engine long, thanks for the explanation there. Also, with the reverse flow and being able to cool the intake charge and combustion chambers better you should be able to run more timing and burn more fuel without the risk of detonation, yes?

afret,
 I've been looking at the aftermarket pumps but none of them allowed me to bolt up the alternator brackets until now thanks to Jay. How did you bolt up your alternator with the CSR pump?

[jayb]

Jay,
 I guess I didn't think about the water staying in the engine long, thanks for the explanation there. Also, with the reverse flow and being able to cool the intake charge and combustion chambers better you should be able to run more timing and burn more fuel without the risk of detonation, yes?

Correct about reducing the risk of detonation, so more timing should be OK.  Thinking about this idea a little more, I see a few potential issues.  The thermostat is unidirectional; it would have to be reversed.  It also might not work at all, since the temperature sensitive portion of the thermostat would be facing the radiator now, instead of the engine, and the radiator is not the source of the heat.  Maybe removing the thermostat would be best in that arrangement.  Also I wonder if reversing the direction of flow would make the water pump less efficient?  Something to think about...

[fe66comet]

I would think a setup for a serpentine drive engine would be available as rotation is reversed.

[afret]

afret,
 I've been looking at the aftermarket pumps but none of them allowed me to bolt up the alternator brackets until now thanks to Jay. How did you bolt up your alternator with the CSR pump?

We got the CSR pump on 3 FE's and just use long studs on the bottom passengers side water pump bolt hole and the 3/8" timing pointer bolt  hole to hold the brackets for mounting the alternator low.  The brackets are different on each engine but we use the same bolt holes with aluminum spacers.







For the street car, I modified a low mount bracket from a place called CRAP that one of the members of the other FE Forum runs.  The two holes on the right are for the mounting studs that you can see in the other photo:

[fe66comet]

When I started to do some drawings of my accessory drive I was going to mount my alternate low along with my  PS pump for my rack. Also I am going serpentine but if I use Jays mounts it cuts a lot of fan work out of the equation. I like easier and hate welding and grinding.

[ScotiaFE]

That is always a debate. LOL
Although over the years I have always found that a 195 T stat would keep an engine cooler than a 180 t stat.
Of course a bigger rad always helps the equation. 
Not mention excellent air flow control and fan ducting.
Your new water pump gizzmo is very temping. It is just money after all.

[fe66comet]

The HP gain is nice but also traffic can destroy an engine here, even stock aluminum ones can die an early death as they crawl along screaming for mercy on a 105 degree day. And of course the driver is not going to turn the a/c off at any cost LOL. But the a/c stops when the engine goes up in a puff of steam and blows a head or block. Then they ask the mechanic why did this happen as it was a major inconvenience ( ready to blame him).

[69Cobra]

afret,
 I've been looking at the aftermarket pumps but none of them allowed me to bolt up the alternator brackets until now thanks to Jay. How did you bolt up your alternator with the CSR pump?

We got the CSR pump on 3 FE's and just use long studs on the bottom passengers side water pump bolt hole and the 3/8" timing pointer bolt  hole to hold the brackets for mounting the alternator low.  The brackets are different on each engine but we use the same bolt holes with aluminum spacers.







For the street car, I modified a low mount bracket from a place called CRAP that one of the members of the other FE Forum runs.  The two holes on the right are for the mounting studs that you can see in the other photo:

Interesting... I wouldn't have thought that the timing pointer hole in the timing cover wouldn't dealt with that stress.

Thanks for sharing.

[afret]

Interesting... I wouldn't have thought that the timing pointer hole in the timing cover wouldn't dealt with that stress.

That hole goes through to the block and holds a 3/8" stud.  It doesn't just screw into the aluminum timing cover.

[69Cobra]

Gotcha.... I misunderstood. lol

[jayb]

Ever have one of those weeks where nearly everything goes wrong when you are trying to get something done?  That was the story of my week this week, but persistence finally paid off on Sunday night, and I'm claiming victory on these water pump adapters.  All the machining parameters are finished, the adapters bolt onto the CVR pump and the FE and there are no leaks, and I have dyno data showing a horsepower increase over a mechanical pump. 

So last Monday I made a list of what I needed to get my 428CJ back on the dyno.  The major thing was engine mounts; I only have two sets of Mustang mounts, and they are both now being used in my Mach 1 and my Shelby clone.  So I went on the website at Mustangs Unlimited on Monday night and ordered the plates that bolt to the engine, and also the mounts.  Since I had the machining operations in the can for the adapters, I also ordered more aluminum from the local metal supply place, to be ready for pickup on Friday this week.  I figured I could feed the CNC machine all weekend and get a bunch of these things cranked out; I had a few feet of stock left, but didn't figure that would last me too long.

After taking care of some family stuff the first part of the week, on Thursday night when I came home from work I was looking forward to getting started on this.  When I got home there was the Mustangs Unlimited box, so I opened it up to look at the mounts, and what do you know - the plates that bolted onto the block were back ordered.  I wish their web site would give you some clue about that, but its not very advanced in that respect.  OK, I figured I could get around that issue.  Out the shop by 7:00, and started slicing up the remaining 3" X 4" aluminum bar in my bandsaw, so I could start machining some.  Halfway through the first cut, the bandsaw blade broke.  Turned out it was my last 10 tooth per inch blade, and the only other one I had was 14 teeth per inch.  That was going to saw really, really slow.  No problem, though, Menards carries those blades, so I figured I'd pick one up at lunch on Friday.  Took the whole rest of the evening for the 14 tooth blade to finish the first cut.  So much for starting on the CNC work...

Friday at lunch I whipped over to Menards to pick up the bandsaw blade.  They were nowhere to be found; just a bunch of wood cutting blades were in stock.  The Menards guy said they discontinued carrying those blades.  Those rotten no good so and so's!  I was mad when I walked out of there.  Drove up to the metal supply place to pick up my aluminum, and sure enough, it wasn't ready.  The "pick ticket" got lost apparently, and nobody cut the aluminum that I needed.  No way I could hang around and wait, I had to get back to work.  Oh well, I wouldn't have been able to cut it anyway with that 14 tooth bandsaw blade.  The guys at the metal place promised it would be ready on Monday.

When I got home Friday night after work I ordered the bandsaw blades I needed from Enco; they should be here this coming Tuesday or Wednesday.  The only thing I could do was cut up the pieces that I had left (SLOWLY), and machine those.  I got going on that Friday night, and continued this work into Saturday.  I had a few more parts made up as I began to get my 428CJ ready for the dyno Saturday afternoon.  First I got it bolted onto the dyno stand, and after a quick inspection I realized that this was going to be a bigger job than I thought.  Last time I ran this engine it was to run some of the final tests for my book, and I had installed solid lifters on the Performer RPM hydraulic cam to do the solid vs hydraulic comparison in the book, and I had also installed an oil line that ran from the valley of the engine out through the opening between the intake and head, and out of a hole in the valve cover, so I could monitor the oil presure at the back of the engine during the dyno pull (this data is also in my book).  If I wanted to pull that oil line and replace the solid lifters with the hydraulics that were supposed to go in there, I'd have to pull the engine apart.  I didn't really want to spend the time doing that, but I didn't feel I had much of a choice; I kind of figured I was running on borrowed time with those solid lifters, and wanted to get the hydraulics back in there, at least until I changed to a real solid cam.  So, reluctantly I tore into the engine. 

At some point late Saturday afternoon, when I was working on the engine, I looked at the water jacket openings where the CVR adapters were supposed to fit.  As mentioned previously in the thread, the left (drivers) side water pump opening has a point to it, making it bigger than the opening on the right side of the engine.  I had measured this when I designed the O-ring groove forthe adapters, but looking at it again now it sure seemed big.  I had just painted  the front of the engine to make it look a little better, so I decided to bolt on one of the adapters with the O-ring installed, figuring that the O-ring would leave an impression in the tacky paint, and I could be sure that the O-ring was big enough to seal.  So I did that.  Here's a picture of the left side water pump opening after the adapter was removed:



Well, crap.  Didn't look to me like that was going to seal!  I must have measured wrong or something; I should have test fit it before.  What was worse was that I had already built about three of these things on Saturday, and none of them were going to work.  Looked like I wasn't done with the CNC programming after all; back to the drawing board.  I stopped work on the engine and spent Saturday night on the CAD and CNC programming software, coming up with a different shape for the O-ring to fit into.  I got some of it machined on Saturday night, but I was up until 1:30 AM doing it.  This morning I was back out in the shop by 8:30, and finished the CNC programs, and let the machine run while I got back to work on the engine.  I decided that rather than re-install the Blue Thunder intake that the engine had before, I'd put a Performer RPM on it.  I was thinking ahead to the FE intake adapters; if I got some good data on the  Performer RPM, then I could compare it to the intake adapter fitted with the 351C Performer RPM intake, which I thought would be interesting.  Also, I have a 282S Comp Cams solid cam that I want to put in this engine rather than the Performer RPM hydraulic cam that is in there now.  I thought about changing to that cam this morning while the CNC machine was whirring away, but I decided that I would wait until the intake adapters were done.  Then, I could change the cam with the intake adapter in place, and see how that worked out.  So I ended up re-installing the hydraulic lifters and put the Performer RPM intake on there. 

I was done with this about noon, and the CNC machine had finished up the revised left side water pump adapter.  I installed the O-ring and it looked pretty good; here is a photo:



Just to be sure, I put a coat of grease on the O-ring, and installed the adapter on the block.  After removing it, I got a completely satisfactory witness mark:



That looked pretty good to me, so I bolted the water pump together and put it on the engine.  Definitely has a little more bling than a stock pump:



I spent the rest of the afternoon getting the engine ready to run on the dyno, with a two hour break in the middle to take my daughter out driving.  (She is 15 and has her permit now, and has been driving a little in my wife's Subaru.  She wanted to drive my truck, so I took her to an empty parking lot where she could practice with it a little, then we went out on the road for an hour or so.  She has a hard time staying between the lines, and she tends to drive on the shoulder because she is scared of the oncoming traffic.  As a result she almost took out a mail box, and I had a few white knuckled moments during the ride, but overall she did pretty well.  Sheesh, this is probably going to be a regular thing for a while LOL!)

By 6:30 tonight the engine was ready to run.  First thing I did was fill it with water, and given the problems of this week I fully expected leaks.  Thankfully, the engine was bone dry; no leaks at all.  That was a relief; looked like my water pump adapters were going to work.  Then I turned on the CVR pump, and was really impressed with how much water it was putting out, based on the sounds coming from the dyno's cooling tower.  Sounded like a garden hose going in there.  Finally I started the engine and warmed it up, and made a couple of dyno pulls.  I have data from this exact combination when I did the dyno testing for my book, so I was anxious to see how it compared to the original data, which was taken with the Edelbrock mechanical pump installed on the engine.  I plotted the comparison data in Excel, and up to about 3800 RPM there really wasn't a difference.  But after that, it was a different story.  Here's the data:



There's about 10 horsepower, right where you want it if you are going down the track.  Color me sold on electric water pumps 

I felt the need for a gratuitous dyno video, so here it is.  It's too bad you can't see the computer screen in the video; it is all whited out and I've never been able to get it visible during these dyno pulls, but the sound is great.  This is only a 425HP engine (now 435 with the electric pump), and the pull only goes to 5500 RPM, but in the dead of winter in Minnesota it is still worth hearing.  Sounds a lot better than all the snowmobiles...

http://youtu.be/8RO-yS8p08M

[afret]

Sorry to hear about all the problems.    At least your daughter missed the mailbox. 

Interesting about the horsepower increase.  It's more than I would have guessed.

Do you think the few adapters you made with the round o-ring groove will work on a Genesis which has a round water hole on both sides?  Looks like it probably would in the photo.   

[jayb]

That's a good thought; I'd hate to waste those.  I don't know about Genesis, but I'll check them on my Pond and Shelby blocks and see.  I imagine if they fit those, they would fit the Genesis block too.

[afret]

Yeah, those aluminum pieces must cost a lot.  I'm going to use this pump on a Genesis block so when I buy a set,  I could use one of those with the round groove for the drivers side so it won't be wasted.

[fetorino]

I can't remember if the Pond hole were round or not but if they are Jay you know where another round set could go.

[BruceS]

Jay, glad to hear the adapters worked out after all... Sounds like you might be able to sell those round o ring groove drivers side parts too.  I have to LOL thinking about teaching your daughter how to drive!  I went through that about 18 years ago with mine    you really need a lot of patience but the experience is worth it, for both of you.

Bruce

[machoneman]

Wow, lotsa work to get it all right.

Do you think that the 10 hp gain would increase (at all, or no) in a 7,000+ rpm engine or is it a one-time constant? 

[jayb]

I think the faster you spin the mechanical water pump, the more horsepower it will take.  So I would think that the power benefits of an electric pump would be more pronounced at higher engine speeds.

[fe66comet]

Another factor is when the pump spins too fast it causes cavitation which causes surges in load , one second no water them another too much head pressure causing surges in load.

[M-train]

My take on that is that you can never have too much flow from the water pump.  The thermostat will function to restrict water flow to the radiator, but I'm not sure that enters into the equation.  Not to open up a somewhat famous argument about cooling  , but I'm not one of those folks who believes that you need to slow down the water in the radiator to make it cool.  No matter how fast the water is going in the radiator, the same amount of water is contained in the radiator at all times, and the same amount of cooling per unit time is taking place.  While it is true that if a particular "parcel" of water goes through the radiator faster, it will receive less cooling, it is also true that the same parcel of water will go through the engine faster, and therefore receive less heating.  Thermodynamically, it all evens out.  Another way to think of this is that if you slow down the water in the radiator, as it exits it will be cooler, but then it will travel through the engine slower, so as it comes out of the engine it will be hotter.  Thinking of it in that way, the faster you can circulate water in the cooling system, the more stable the cooling system temperature will be.  If I could bolt a 100 gpm pump onto any of my engines, I'd do it.

Going reverse through the cooling system, on the other hand, makes a lot of sense from a horsepower perspective, because the water will be at its coolest coming out of the radiator, and the cylinder heads are where most of the heat is.  So, cooler water will absorb more heat from the heads than water that has already been heated somewhat by traveling through the block.  The horsepower gain is thermodynamic; keeping the combustion chamber and intake charge cooler by reducing the cylinder head temperature results in more heat extracted from the combustion process.  However, I don't know if you can just reverse the polarity of the electric pump motor to effect this change; I haven't taken my CVR pump apart to see if the impeller is directional.  I strongly suspect that it is, in which case a different impeller would be required in addition to the polarity change on the motor.

Maybe I'll take my CVR pump apart and look this weekend...

NO, I would think that wouldn't be possible. I took two aluminum mechanical water pumps apart to see the impellers.

One pump was standard rotation, the other was reverse. The impellers were different as in backward to one another. So there wouldn't be a way to simply flip them over to work a different way.

Now, what you could do is call the company and get the shaft size, and impeller dimensions for a 5.0l engine. If they are the same, and I bet they would be for simplicity, you could just swap impellers, and then the polarity on the motor.

Also, remember Mario 428 makes the alternator brackets for these electric pumps if you need one. I have one on my setup with a Procharger, and Mez electric pump.

[jayb]

Thanks for confirming that, since I never got around to taking my CVR pump apart.  Pusher and puller electric fans also have reversed blades, so it makes sense that forward and reverse flow water pumps would have reversed blades too.

[69Cobra]

Any idea when these guys will hit the market?

[jayb]

Should be Thursday or Friday this week.  I'm currently building a little inventory before I put them up for sale...

[69Cobra]

Is this what we need to go with it?


http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cvs-8560cl/overview/make/ford

[jayb]

No, its one of these:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cvs-8000cl/overview/

[cdmbill2]

Jay as always simply amazing work! A couple notes to this thread, but in full disclosure I have a 385 motor Mustang currently so take this with the appropriate skepticism or not.

I always end up using Ultra Grey Silicone on the smaller diameter o-rings that come on the CSR and Meziere pumps where they connect to the timing cover and block. Otherwise they eventually leak.

On the age old use a thermostat to slow the water down I'd refer everyone to the Stewart water pumps tech pages. They make NASCAR water pumps which are mechanical but they debunk that old wives tale for similar reasoning to Jay's

I don't run a thermostat on my electric fan/electric pump cooled street car. It currently makes around 1000 HP and does fine in all kinds of driving conditions including track days, auto-x and even pulling a trailer. I have two Drag Week jackets, not three or four like Jay but I think its proof that the all electric system can work.

Rather than try reverse cooling I'd suggest pulling water from the back of the manifold/heads to facilitate combustion chamber cooling. This means changing the size of some of the holes in the head gasket. I got my info on this proceedure from Jon Kaase at Engine Masters for the 385, I'm sure someone (maybe Barry R.?) as tried this on an FE.

I now run an Afco dual pass radiator which made a significant difference in a similar size form factor. Jay's setup allows that and I'd look seriously at Dual pass if you don't want to cut your radiator cradle.

[fe66comet]

Cool so you are ready to rock Jay, is this the longest thread ever LOL......Jon

[jayb]

Jay as always simply amazing work! A couple notes to this thread, but in full disclosure I have a 385 motor Mustang currently so take this with the appropriate skepticism or not.

I always end up using Ultra Grey Silicone on the smaller diameter o-rings that come on the CSR and Meziere pumps where they connect to the timing cover and block. Otherwise they eventually leak.

On the age old use a thermostat to slow the water down I'd refer everyone to the Stewart water pumps tech pages. They make NASCAR water pumps which are mechanical but they debunk that old wives tale for similar reasoning to Jay's

I don't run a thermostat on my electric fan/electric pump cooled street car. It currently makes around 1000 HP and does fine in all kinds of driving conditions including track days, auto-x and even pulling a trailer. I have two Drag Week jackets, not three or four like Jay but I think its proof that the all electric system can work.

Rather than try reverse cooling I'd suggest pulling water from the back of the manifold/heads to facilitate combustion chamber cooling. This means changing the size of some of the holes in the head gasket. I got my info on this proceedure from Jon Kaase at Engine Masters for the 385, I'm sure someone (maybe Barry R.?) as tried this on an FE.

I now run an Afco dual pass radiator which made a significant difference in a similar size form factor. Jay's setup allows that and I'd look seriously at Dual pass if you don't want to cut your radiator cradle.

Good to hear from you Bill, and thanks for the detailed info.  I'll watch those O-rings; hopefully they are beefy enough to survive...

[fe66comet]

I have already drilled my block and heads for more circulation and cleaned the burrs off the holes.Also cleaned up the block for better oil return. Does not everyone do this kinda like thread in oil journal plugs. Standard issue engine building stuff.

[jayb]

Looking back it is amazing to me that this took so long    I expected to be finished with this stuff a month ago.  Oh well, I'm in production now; here's a shot of some complete and some partially completed adapters:



There is an ad in the vendor classifieds and a link under the Products and Services button on the main web site for anyone interested - Jay

[sixty9cobra]

Ok so its roughly 10-15 hp gain for the electric pump. Any Idea what a SS flex fan or a non clutch fan uses?  From what I see 15-25hp can be gained from using both. Thats pretty cheap horsepower. I know the alternator will be doing more work but in a race car you can disconnect the alt for your quarter mile pass with a simple switch.  I remember my friend ha a car and we put a vacuum switch to disconect the ac compressor at WOT.

[machoneman]

Car Craft fan test (sorry it's a Chevy!).

http://www.network54.com/Forum/215655/message/1066184641/Car+Craft+Cooling+Fan+Dyno+Test

[jayb]

Ok so its roughly 10-15 hp gain for the electric pump. Any Idea what a SS flex fan or a non clutch fan uses? 

I did that test a long time ago for a guy on the FE Forum, but I can't find the data at the moment.  The test was somewhat suspect too, because the fan was just hanging out in front of the engine, not positioned right next to a radiator like it would be in the car.  But if I recall correctly the test showed about a 10-12 HP loss due to the presence of the flex fan.  For sure there's at least some horsepower to be gained by removing the fan...

Edit:  Never mind, I found it.  Here is the data:

[sixty9cobra]

looks like roughtly 20 hp to me. I recently installed a 4 core aluminum radiator and twin electric fans. I need an electric pump lol. That would raise my very dissapointing 415 rear wheel dyno results a bit. Since that time I went to a 3 inch magnaflow exhaust, Which feels like 100 hp over the flowmasters. and an 850 dbl pumper from a 750. I will probably find out at Beaver Springs Fe reunion what the 1/4 mile times are.

[bartlett]

 I went to a 3 inch magnaflow exhaust, Which feels like 100 hp over the flowmasters.


   I hear you there .... The only problem is the magnafolws sound HORRABLE ! I switched from flowmaster 10's to magnaflows and I dumping the magnaflows and going back ! I kid you not, the sound of the magnaflows drives me insane ! there like driving a stock muffler only slighly louder when you get on them.

 Im so glad my system has flanged mufflers for easy changing !

[afret]

Just got the adapters today and started putting things back together.  Fits great and even the lower hose worked out fine.  Thanks Jay.

[jayb]

It's cool seeing those things on another engine 

[afret]

Put water in and found some seeping between the adapter and the body of the pump on passengers side.  Might be due to the really thin O-rings CVR uses there.  Took the adapters off, cleaned and put a thin layer of silicone there on both sides to play it safe.   I'll let the sealant set up and put it back on tomorrow.
Should be fine now.

[jayb]

Hmmm, I didn't see that on mine.  When you took the adapters off did you notice any burrs or anything on the adapters themselves that would have kept the O-ring from sealing?

[afret]

Nope, no burrs, the adapters looked really good. 

[jayb]

cdmbill said that he had to use a thin layer of silicone on his CSR pump to get it to seal despite the O-rings; maybe that is just going to be required in some cases.  I think I'll add a recommendation to that effect to the instructions sheet.

[afret]

Yeah, probably a good idea just to be safe since it's so easy to do.  They should have used a big O-ring like the one you used on the block side of the adapter.  Put water back in and turned on the pump.  No leaking.  The pump sure moves a lot of water.     Thanks again, Jay. 

[jayb]

Just finished the CVR pump adapters for the SOHC.  I just did the ones with the alternator mount, because that's what I'm going to be using on my SOHCs.  These will be a little less expensive than the standard FE adapters, because there is less aluminum and less machining required.  Unfortunately, because of the way the SOHC timing cover is designed, its not possible to set these up to use O-rings for sealing; normal gaskets will be required.  My friend Kevin was over looking at them yesterday, and he pointed out that for the SOHC, this setup will probably be cheaper than the stock SOHC water pump setup LOL!  That's a switch.  I'm looking forward to trying these out on my 577" SOHC when I get it back on the dyno in the next month or so...