FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => Non-FE Discussion Forum => Topic started by: gregaba on August 15, 2022, 05:59:04 PM
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Looking to buy a small mill to fab some part's.
I was going to order one from Grizzly tool for around $2500 but they are on backorder.
Been searching all day and all I have found are the cheap low powered china mill's. Less the 1/2 HP or the $13,000+ one's.
I would like at least one with 3/4 HP or more and non plastic gear's.
Anybody have any recomendation's
I would consider a china mill but would like some real review's on the quality of any suggested.
Greg
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I have had my Grizzly 3n1 (drill,mill,lathe) for 20 years and been pretty happy with it. A budy of mine has a Smithy 3n1, it may be a touch better than the grizzly. You may want to check them out.
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Get a used Bridgeport or that type of machine, they run 1 - 3 hp. A BP an be had used for $1500 - $3000, in good shape. You almost can't wear them out and can use them, standing up, straight. They weight about 2000 lb but, will fit in a garage.
The smaller mills will only frustrate you. It's much better to have more mill than you need, than be undersized, just a little. They are also, extremely versatile.
Tooling is also, bountiful and cheap.
I bought my Lagun (Spanish made BP type), new, in '82 and 40 years later, it's still is almost as good as when I bought it.
Check Local machinery dealers, FB & Craigslist.
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If you have the space, I'd agree with Frank, get an old Bridgeport or equivalent. Wait for an auction and you can get one for a good price; there are some local machine auction houses around my location where those types of machines come up regularly. A lot of times a CNC shop will be going out of business, and still have one or two manual mills at their facility that will also be sold with the rest of their equipment.
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Space is kind of a problem but I can make room if I park a car outside.
I have went to 3 auction's in the last year where there was a bridgeport mill for bid but I found out the dealer's from Dallas and Houston are going to them and when you bid they will just bid $50 more then your bid untill you give up.
I went to some site's who resell but the shipping cost are more then the mill and I would have to unload it myself as I have no help.
I was looking on the web and found a company called Sureline that make's tabletop model's here in the USA. Never heard of them before but the review's are great. some of the user's have been using the same mill from the 70's with no problem's.
I am only going to be fabing small part's and not doing any head rebuilding or the bigger stuff so don't need a big mill now but would prefer a bigger one because of what I might decide to do in the future.
Thanks
For the suggestions.
Greg
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I have a square column G0519 Grizzly that has served me very well. It ain't a Bridgeport, but most of the little machine shops died out way long ago so finding a B-port locally has been - nah. Last one I saw here a couple of years ago they wanted about $2K and it had been sitting outside. Or - they are huge 3 phase 440V oil field grade/heavy industry stuff. I've seen some big CNC equipment go dirt cheap.
I've had this G0519 quite a while - 1HP 3 phase with a converter. I'm fixing to mount a 3 axis DRO on it, why I haven't done that I don't know LOL. Oh - paying for the new TIG welder that's why. The square column keeps the Z axis in line if you have to move the head for say, drilling and then guiding a tap. I'm eyeballing how to get a 180 lb Dart block on the table right now so I can drill/tap some 10-24 holes for a valley cover plate.
(https://raceabilene.com/misc/NewShop/G0519.jpg)
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Craft will apparently be auctioning off old equipment...
https://craftperformanceengines.com/index.html
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That is about what I tried to order from Grizzly but everything they have is on backorder except the $700 machine.
I have had to much experence with how back order's are working now to order and then wait.
It is a shame that Craft is out of business I really feel bad for them.
Greg
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Get a used Bridgeport or that type of machine,.............
The smaller mills will only frustrate you. It's much better to have more mill than you need, ...........
Check Local machinery dealers, FB & Craigslist.
I agree whole heartedly with this advise. :)
Avoid the cheap-import stuff (Grizzly? :P ), as this will in the end prove to be just that! ;)
I wouldn't say you can't, but, you can't buy to big a unit (that is, and have it fit in your garage that is! ::) ) that is unless your solely taking up watch making; so in trying to determine just how big a unit you'll need, figure out what table surface area and traverse distance you 'think' you'll need and multiply this by at least one and one-half times, if not by two, and I assure one day it'll still prove not big enough! :o
We have two Bridge-Port brand 'knee-mills' ("table-top" units are to small for anything other than 'tinkering' ::) ) in our shop, nice units, one from an equipment dealer, the other at an auction.
As far as self-moving them, at perhaps a couple thousand pounds, if you don't have the proper equipment (like I do! 8) ) just rent the necessary equipment to move it safely, a truck and or trailer (now might be when it pays to have friends! ;D ), a fork-lift and or pallet-jack; they're not that expensive (at least not where I'm at). And though not difficult, be sure to understand the proper procedure in handling them (most importantly: center of gravity!) :)
Scott.
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Scott
Thanks for the advice. I really don't need a big mill for what I am doing.
I build my own sporting arm's.
As to the transport of a bigger mill I do have a rollback and a good trailor however I sold my forklift and pallet jack's with my building when I retired from manfacturing in 2004.
If I had a big mill I know what would happen, I would start to think of new thing's to do with it and would never have any relaxing time to myself. [lol]
Greg
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Check with Precision Matthews - they may have something in that size range that you need. Like a PM-940M
My Grizzly has been in use since June of 2009 and I haven't had a single issue with it. It's accurate enough for most things. I might not try to surface a V8 cylinder head with it because it doesn't have that kind of power, but it's repaired transmission cases, made parts, drilled distributor shafts and what not. Latest was milling a big sheet of .250 aluminum plate for the Dart valley cover. It has a 9x32 table with plenty of X and Y for most things. The only real shortcoming that I can think of is that it doesn't spin slow enough to be good for maybe cutting seats in a head. I can turn down the hertz on the drive but closing in on 40 hz the motor starts to chatter. It'll punch a 1" hole in steel plate no problem. It has well paid for it's self. Same with my Enco 12x36 and my HF 9x20 lathe. Sure the Enco ain't a Lebond but the spindle still spins at .000x TIR.
(https://raceabilene.com/misc/Dragster/Dart/Cover1.jpg)
The only small shop size mill I see for sale nearby here is a 9x50 Acra that's listed at $10,500. Jet sells an 8x36 that looks nice but runs close to $8K.
This is for sure your "low price leader" but these have a really good following and lots of data about modifications, improvements and such all over the web
https://www.harborfreight.com/vertical-milling-machine-40939.html
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Thanks
i will give PM a look.
Greg
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I have been in the market for a new mill as well recently, and as a primer, I took an advanced manual machining course at a local Tech School this winter to refresh some of my skills as it had been 15 yrs since I was in school, and the job has become much more desk orientated..... First day the instructor points to the row of Jet lathes and states "J E T = Junk", next the 2 Grizzly mills, "Grizzly = Garbage" Being that I now live in Springfield, that soured me on Grizzly, even though it is still fun to walk through their scratch and dent show room from time to time and pick up some deals.
I will 2nd Falcon67's suggestion of Precision Matthews.
Also, Watch some of Abom79's videos. The guy is an expert machinist and generally seems to have pretty good advice on equipment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV0ldiD7-qU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV0ldiD7-qU)
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Thanks for the link.
I think I like the PM mill's. I looked at the PM-25mv at $2300 but when I started adding on the option's it got close to $4000.
That's a little more then I wanted to spend as I wanted to keep the cost under $3000 if possible.
The PM-940-m isn't available any more ar at least they did not have a price on it on their web page.
Greg
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I can say I have not seen much of Grizzly since the mid 2000s. Not a lot of people buying their metal work machines, other than maybe the lathes. If I were to buy another, PM would be my first look these days. Love to have a 9x49 knee mill but $$$$ and space. However, if I found a B-port Series 1 in good shape for $2500~3K, I'd probably find the room LOL!
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Recommended to view: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV0ldiD7-qU
Just a note: Of the KBC Tools mill, comment from their intro page: ".......with our own Proprietary Branded Machinery" :-\; but manufactured where? :(
Scott.
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I think the better castings/machines come OEM from Tiawan. Lesser maybe from China. Not that China can't make good machines - you'd likely need to have someone on site, or at least a firm agreement on the required precision. Bridgeports are around $20K and I don't think the castings are made in the USA. Nothing on the B-port brochures claim "Made in USA".
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First day the instructor points to the row of Jet lathes and states "J E T = Junk"
In the hopes of at least, saving one person from this fate, I totally agree with the above statement. I've worked with several different types of Jet products and ALL are junk!!!
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I bought a Grizzly G0761 and it does ok. It has an x table travel long enough to go the full length of an FE intake, or head. I bought mine probably 6-7 years ago and I just checked their website and it seems the price has pretty much doubled since then. :(
https://www.grizzly.com/products/grizzly-10-x-32-2-hp-hd-benchtop-mill-drill-with-power-feed-and-tapping/g0761
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That was a long video but I did pick up a few tip's.
Wish I would have bought one a couple year's ago when I first though about it.
Greg
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From experience, if you buy something try hard not to buy something too small because of price or whatever. I start with a mini-mill and the 9x20 HF lathe. Both do good work. I didn't have the mini-mill very long before I figured out it was way too small for things I needed. It was no problem to sell it to another hobbyist. The 9x20 went on to pay for its self. I finally got the 12x36 in a "perfect storm" of Enco sale price and a 20% off offer. The 9x20 still has a use, it just doesn't get used much - kinda like the drill press that sits next to the mill. It is a good Craftsman older 15" unit, too good to sell - at least right now.
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- kinda like the drill press that sits next to the mill.
This is actually a good practice, as when one needs to do some trash work, (like drilling holes in a two-by-four ::) ), your saving your good machine from undue wear and tear, the simpler drill-press is easier to clean-up afterwards, and just costs less to operate. :)
Scott.
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I agree.
I wouldn't buy something to small at least for my current need's. However I have done this before, buy something that is what I need now and finding out later that I need something because my need's have changed.
I went to order a PM-25MV yesterday and guess what, they are on back order. Just my luck.
Greg
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I have one of these, pretty sturdy little machine, with a mechanical power feed on the table
http://www.lathes.co.uk/rockfordmillers/
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I have one of these,
http://www.lathes.co.uk/rockfordmillers/
Rockford was a fine manufacture of machine equipment, in a time that is now considered "long-ago"; but is yours still with the flat-belt drive? ??? If so, don't let OSHA or your insurance company spot it! :o
In the horizontal mill department we have an older (but not so old as to be 'flat-belt driven) but a goodie, Kearney & Trecker 10HP 4CH model. 8) You'll need a better than average forklift to move one of these as our 5500lb Clark won't lift it without the rear wheels lifting off the ground!
These big, but often great older machines can be at times purchased for pricing close to scrape value, as if only because businesses can not higher employees who can, or have any interest in learning how to operate them today. :(
Scott.
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- kinda like the drill press that sits next to the mill.
This is actually a good practice, as when one needs to do some trash work, (like drilling holes in a two-by-four ::) ), your saving your good machine from undue wear and tear, the simpler drill-press is easier to clean-up afterwards, and just costs less to operate. :)
Scott.
That's right - why I keep it. Always need a hole in something and not all need mill precision. :) Big machines go cheap, but most are 3 phase and use big motors. Local POCO here will just laugh if you ask for 200A 3Ph service in a residential area. Easy to imagine the install bill if they would even consider it to be way more costly than the machine.
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When I sold my manufacturing company in 2008 we had 6 bridgeport mills.
I wanted to keep one for my personal use but the electric company here would not install the 3 phase service in my home shop.
So I sold them. along with the fork lift's and other mechinery.
Wish I would have keep one of the forklift's as I could have really used one a bunch of time's.
Greg
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I wanted to keep one for my personal use but the electric company here would not install the 3 phase service in my home shop.
There is the option of the use of a phase-converter also. ;) Though of coarse there is still the limitation as to the overall power being made available from the pole! :-\
Scott.
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I use a 2 HP TECO unit on G0519 to convert a single phase 240V input to power the 3 ph 1 HP motor. The main deal with a VFD is that you rip all the control wiring out of the mill - the VFD has to talk directly to the motor, not though the mill controls. It's not like 3ph from the pole. Then you wire the mill controls back to the VFD to the VFD inputs and do the programming in the VFD to respond to the inputs. As an example, my VFD is programmed to stop the spindle in 0.5 sec when the E-stop switch is closed. The VFD makes for some nice features like the E-stop settings, spindle spin up time and such. You get full power from the proper 240V input circuit to the mill motor. I oversized the VFD so I could skip installing load resistors and such to handle excess braking power.
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I never heard of that. I knew about the converter's.
You would think our electrican would have mentioned that to me as an option.
Oh well, don't have the big machine's any more so don't need it but someone who finds a good machine cheap could use that as an option in a home shop.
Greg
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Bridgeport made a smaller "M" head mill. They are much less common than the standard J head, but they do exist.
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I never heard of that. I knew about the converter's.
You would think our electrican would have mentioned that to me as an option.
Oh well, don't have the big machine's any more so don't need it but someone who finds a good machine cheap could use that as an option in a home shop.
Greg
I have both my Bridgeport and my 16x60 South Bend on static phase converters that cost $79.95 and work very well and simple to connect. A VFD will deliver full power and speed control, but the SFC's work fine
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Is there any way to talk you and your mill's into moving to south west Oklahoma.
Greg
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Come'on, in reality all one needs is a hacksaw, a file, and a hand honing stone; after all the first (even steel :o ) wheel was done before Edison's electricity was made available! ::)
Scott.
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Yes
That is true.
You forgot the brace and bit.
However all my life I have been known as bring lazy and I really like my convience's.
Greg
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You forgot the brace and bit.
Yes, you are correct, and I suppose if we're going to add to the list, might as well not forget a hammer; the bigger the better! ::)
Scott.
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Side milling with a drill bit in the old drill press has always been a thing ;D If I had my grandad's old brace-n-bit I'd be chucking up a 4 flute end mill and trying it out right now. Big file + drill chuck = lathe, right?
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That's an ideal.
I have my dad's brace and bit from the 40's so I might give it a try with a center cut bit.
Not sure about side milling but we will see how it goes.
Greg
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I think your going to discover the reason for the, often threaded, point extension on the bit! :o
Scott.
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A short update.
I went ahead and ordered a small mill from Little Machine Shop untill I can find what I want later.
It is the 3990 model with extra's.
Will be here Tuesday.
It should be big enough for what I need to do now.
I was looking at a Bailage [sp?] but they are all on back order for now at least the one's I can afford.
Thanks for all the help and comment's.
Greg