FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: jgkurz on May 13, 2020, 10:38:53 AM
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Hi all, I haven't posted for a while. I had some family matters to attend to, but I can now re-focus on my FE project. Long story-short, I had a stout 427 stroker built for my 69 CJ Mustang that should make the 625hp dyno mark. The headers I bought were from REF, but they just won't fit in my car due to the thick flanges and my factory reinforced shock towers. I have spent a HUGE amount of time trying to get the REF headers to fit but I have come to the conclusion I would need to make significant modifications to my car which I am not willing to do. They are awesome for an NHRA stock eliminator 67-70 Mustang with regular shock towers. At this point I am done with the REF headers. I wasted the money, but now need to move on.
Now that you have the context, here is my real question. I am looking seriously at the Hooker Super Comps with the 1-3/4 primaries and thinner flanges. I may cut off the collectors and add quality merge collectors. I have scoured the dyno posts on this forum and others as well as Jay's book. I cannot find one example where the 1-3/4 Super Comp's made 600hp or more. I realize the old-school design with 1-3/4 pipes are limiting. Unfortunately I have a unique situation.
Have Hooker 1-3/4 Super Comp's ever made 600hp or more?
-John
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I just found this thread. It looks like Jay made well over 600hp with a 504ci. The 1-3/4 primaries were clearly a bottleneck but I think this proves they "could" support 600+ hp with the right combo.
http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=4760.msg51869#msg51869
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I realize it's not the direction you are taking but I have REF headers on my late 68 that has the reinforced towers and also has BT heads which have raised exhaust ports making it even tighter. Maybe your towers have tilted in a little like they do when the years add up. When my engine was out I jacked some between the towers just to be sure and always kept it braced apart until the engine went back in.
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As a 6114 user, there could be some signigicant negatives to fitment and clearance with race headers, although the power differences on a 600+ HP motor are significant at the HP peak
Watch the curve as well though, because there were equal trade offs in the small tube header at different HP/TQ RPM points, and depending on use, could be called the winner too.
In the end though, I have always thought I could use a little more primary tube, maybe not all the way to 2 1/8, but more, the problem is packaging and availability. At some point, you have to go around the towers for the front cylinders as you get big and long. I do think that Jay also had some great result with Tri-Ys which could be a middle option
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I learned many choice words watching/helping put those hooker headers in our '68 Cougar.....we bought a set of REF's hoping that when we pull the engine and re-install it that they would help the cause. Our Cougar has the reinforced shock tower plates on it. Really hoping we aren't headed for the same problem. There is a drawer with some "header tools" in it at the shop, cuss-dum made tools by us, all a result of fitting up those super comp headers in the cougar. Hopefully they have a bit better pattern now because our set was a battle.
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Thanks for the responses!
bill_396, My towers were tilted. I bought at Global West brace to make sure they stayed put, but I still had trouble. The BBM heads with the thick header flanges just won't fit my car, even with 5/16 hex head bolts and no washers. I worked on it for months and just need to cut my losses. I was so frustrated at one point I was ready sell the whole mess and buy a Windsor. I have since thought better.
My427stang, I agree with all your comments. The 6114 work well but might be a little undersized for my setup. The REF are 2-1/8 but 2" should be just fine. 1-3/4 will be a touch small at the top end. The attractive thing about the 6114's is that they could "potentially" be installed on the engine before lowering everything into the car. I could even cut off the existing collectors and add some slip-on merge collectors that should help power slightly. Removing the collectors should also make it easier to drop the engine & headers into the engine bay. I may be dreaming but it might be worth a try. I just hate installing headers on an FE Mustang. HATE!
mbrunson427, REF headers are awesome and make power, but be ready for this choice words on a reinforced shock tower car.
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I had kind of the same problem. Couldn't use the REFs due to the road race oil pan so gave them away. Went to the FPA tri-y headers. They are a cork compared to the REFs but they worked OK. Car ran quicker than I expected even though the mufflers. Oh, and the engine probably makes around 500-550 horsepower.
http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=6437.0;all
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I learned many choice words watching/helping put those hooker headers in our '68 Cougar.....we bought a set of REF's hoping that when we pull the engine and re-install it that they would help the cause. Our Cougar has the reinforced shock tower plates on it. Really hoping we aren't headed for the same problem. There is a drawer with some "header tools" in it at the shop, cuss-dum made tools by us, all a result of fitting up those super comp headers in the cougar. Hopefully they have a bit better pattern now because our set was a battle.
Did you install them bolted to the engine/transmission? I have done it in the car, and although I (strangely) like the slow, methodical challenge of tightening headers, I would never do it again if I could help it. On the floor, it's easy, then you sling the whole thing in a Mustang/Cougar as a unit. 15 minutes for headers, 20 minutes for engine into mounts.
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Another thought is to jack the front of the car with the jack under the round brace. That will allow the shock towers to flex outward enough for you to get the headers installed. Then add your shock tower brace back in before you let the jack down from under the round brace. Joe-JDC
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may i see pics of the factory shock tower plates for 69 CJs? and thickness of REF flanges? is it like - if you weld on thin flanges then REFs will not fit for other reasons? also can engine being higher or lower via engine mounts solve? fpa’s have lots of room on my 67 s-code with factory plates. send fpa a trace of your ports else you may get back not so good of a match. fpa will work with you. tell them everything.
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I learned many choice words watching/helping put those hooker headers in our '68 Cougar.....we bought a set of REF's hoping that when we pull the engine and re-install it that they would help the cause. Our Cougar has the reinforced shock tower plates on it. Really hoping we aren't headed for the same problem. There is a drawer with some "header tools" in it at the shop, cuss-dum made tools by us, all a result of fitting up those super comp headers in the cougar. Hopefully they have a bit better pattern now because our set was a battle.
Typically, from the factory, the tower reinforcement braces stick out a ways as they wrap around the towers. IF your engine bay is not painted yet, you can gain some valuable space by heating the front brace with a torch and using a chunk of oak and a big freakin hammer to beat them back against the towers.
The factory Medium Riser heads would fit in my R code '69, but there was no room for the bolt heads on the top bolts for the headers (Hooker 6114's). After I beat them back, it gave me enough room to squeeze the bolts between the tower and header flange. I still can't put the bolt in or take it out with the engine in place, so the engine has to be jacked up on one side to get the front top bolts out, but it fits! To look at them, you'd never know they were "modified", if that matters to you. I suggest this to anyone building a big block Mustang that has those braces and will be using those 8 bolt exhaust pattern heads, or if you want to use those bolts on 16 bolt heads.
Caveat though, It also led to an annoying pecking sound as that bolt tapped at the brace on the tower at idle. It was really annoying, so I put an adjustable engine strap on the drivers side to keep that from happening. Of course it also helps keep stress off the engine mounts when the car launches, so it was a double win.
may i see pics of the factory shock tower plates for 69 CJs? and thickness of REF flanges? is it like - if you weld on thin flanges then REFs will not fit for other reasons? also can engine being higher or lower via engine mounts solve? fpa’s have lots of room on my 67 s-code with factory plates. send fpa a trace of your ports else you may get back not so good of a match. fpa will work with you. tell them everything.
I'll post pictures of how close the braces are with the 6114's, when I get home today. You can't lower the engine enough to gain space, and you can't go high enough to get above the brace without causing issues with the trans tunnel, among other things. Your '67 does not have the wrap around braces that are present on R code cars and Cougars, so it's less of an issue. I'm sure the REF's could be modified to work (seems most everyone I've talked to has the same issues with them), but they are not cheap, and most people don't want to spend big bucks on something they will have to modify. And modifying header flanges is not exactly a job that ranks in the "fun" category. :)
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i found pics on the web. i'd cut/clearance as you are already off script for restoration and next owner can weld fill later. for example, i welded in a passenger torque box. it can be removed if being restored.
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im no builder but it seems to me that it would be hard to say how much hp max.wouldn't a 900 horse engine still make 8 something hp with these headers,i know it has to loose hp,but is it really limited to a certain hp number with these headers?
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Last time i did mine i used a button head bolt by the towers still had to jack the engine up it never leaked.
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I couldn't find the close up pictures I had of the header/shock tower fit, but here's one that I cropped that shows how tight it is. There was no way a bolt would fit if I hadn't beaten the towers back. As it is, the bolt still barely fits, but on 8 bolt heads, you gotta have that bolt. The dings and scratches are from before I added the engine limiter, strap, whatever you wanna call it.
(https://i.postimg.cc/B6g2gs1H/IMAG3695.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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I am running the Hooker Super Comp 1 3/4" pipes. My combination in the '68 produces 600+ HP at the flywheel. The few times I let it all hang out through the gears, the engine continued to pull awesomely up to the rev limiter set at 6400. I am using a Comp Cam solid roller and 6400 seemed to be the top of the torque curve so why push it. Exhaust system could limit just as much as smaller header tubes.
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I thought everybody’s header bolts fit like that. Mine do
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I switched from Hooker 1-3/4" headers to 2" Crites headers on the dyno 14 years ago. I just pulled out the sheets.
On a 517 hp 428 the 2" headers made about 5-6 more peak hp. The big headers were stronger at all rpms from 3200 rpm up. At 3000 rpm, the start of the pull, the 1-3/4" headers made 2 more hp. Below that who knows. Peak torque was 2 lb/ft higher with the 2" headers.
So even at that lower hp level, the 1-3/4" Hookers cost a little power. So at 600-625 hp you can guess what the loss will be.
paulie
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thanks for the pic. yes thats how far down the web pic shows the plate was notched for fit.
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After much consideration and research I think I'm going to give the Doug's D627-R headers a try. Doug's, Crites & Mad Dog are the only non-REF headers that offer larger than 1.75" primaries for my Mustang. I read on fordfe.com that the Doug's fit well if used with a non-kickout oil pan. I may cut off the old school collectors and add merge collectors while I'm at it.
(https://shop.dougsheaders.com/media/catalog/product/cache/2/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/d/6/d627-r.jpg)
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Do your REF headers have 1-7/8" primaries or 2" primaries? We mocked up the REF headers on the Mustang this weekend, our Mustang also has shock tower reinforcement plates, but they fit actually super well. Ours are the 1-7/8" primaries.
We wrote ourselves up a whole procedure of the order we put everything in. One thing we had to do is drill a hole in the shock tower for the #5 top flange bolt, it was impossible to get that bolt in without doing something like that. At #3 the shock tower also required some grinding on the reinforcement plate, and we slotted the top flange to get the bolt in better.
Tube's went in one tune at a time. Drivers side, #7,#6,#5, then #8. Passenger was #3, #2, #1, then #4.
Picture's don't show up too well because it's black headers on black engine compartment.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fbTmt3j1/IMG-2049.jpg) (https://postimages.org/) (https://i.postimg.cc/MGPRyW9H/IMG-2050.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/1t8FBLdH/IMG-2052.jpg) (https://postimages.org/) (https://i.postimg.cc/hvxdWVcQ/IMG-2199.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/dtPCRNj2/IMG-2200.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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ALSO, the REF's will absolutely not work with a power steering idler arm. We are ordering a new manual steering idler arm. The Mustang has a flaming river steering box in it and that all cleared too.
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Man, there is some ugly lookin' cuss in that first pic! LOL
Yes, they seem to fit well and alhough most won't see it, those bends south of the motor mounts look like old Trans-Am and sports car headers. Nice!
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Just judging by the pictures, they look like they will be real close to the filter adapter. Have you tried fitting it on the block? Some of the aftermarket billet jobs are pretty thick, so might be an issue with them as well. And they obviously would not work with the factory cooler design like I have on my car, but the old race Hookers won't work with that either, as well as the Mad Dog race headers and others that have the #5 tube that goes straight down.
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My REF are step headers that start as 1-7/8 and step up to 2-1/8. The flanges are 1/2 thick. The Idler arm was not a problem, but the Pitman arm was until I changed it to an original Ford style and not a reproduction style. There is a difference. I also changed to the manual steering link with my Borgeson box.
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Man, there is some ugly lookin' cuss in that first pic! LOL
Ha! That's my Dad. He's rarely caught in a photo, can't stand them.
Just judging by the pictures, they look like they will be real close to the filter adapter. Have you tried fitting it on the block? Some of the aftermarket billet jobs are pretty thick, so might be an issue with them as well. And they obviously would not work with the factory cooler design like I have on my car, but the old race Hookers won't work with that either, as well as the Mad Dog race headers and others that have the #5 tube that goes straight down.
Doug, we will be running a remote filter. I caught onto this Saturday and did some questioning. For non drag use they suggest running a remote style unit. For drag race only, a standard housing can be used and you don't run the car for long enough that it becomes a problem.
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Not sure if the fitament problems outway the 7 horsepower. Yes I know it would be more when you get to 650 plus horse but really how much. Does anyone have any real proof how much.
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i have took off and put on those hookers on my comets and fairlanes over the years .its not that bad after you have done it a dozen times.i loosen up the motor mount on the pass side and jack that side of the engine up about a inch and that side will slip in,and on the driver side the 2 piece goes in with no problem.but the bolts are a different story.some goes in from the bottom,some from the top,a few you have to use both hands the tip of a finger on each hand.some you have to tighten 1/8 turn at a time and flip the wrench over every other turn.i usually make a day out of it here in my old age 57.but back in the early 1980s i would throw them on in no time flat.i have used a remote filter ever since i bought my first set.i still like and use them.
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These pictures bring back nightmares of the first time I unbolted them in the Mustang. Took every afternoon that week after work. Then they still wouldn’t come loose. Laid down on the ground and was amazed to see more header bolts. :o :o
From all the reading I’ve done here, someone mentioned a 5/16 head header bolt. Those and a 5/16” ratchet wrench have made life a easier.
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Not sure if the fitament problems outway the 7 horsepower. Yes I know it would be more when you get to 650 plus horse but really how much. Does anyone have any real proof how much.
This question keeps me up at night. The Hooker 6114's would be MUCH easier to install. I also think adding merge collectors would improve them slightly. What I don't want is an engine that makes 650 on the dyno and 600 in the car. FPA headers are also easy to install but I think the Hookers will support a bit more power. The Doug's 627-R headers "should" be easier then the REF but still support 600+. Decisions decisions!
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>What I don't want is an engine that makes 650 on the dyno and 600 in the car.
Good luck - dyno to car means mucho compromises.
https://www.dragzine.com/tech-stories/dyno-days-an-inside-look-at-what-all-the-dyno-numbers-mean/
"We’ve performed back-to-back tests and witnessed a naturally aspirated, 400-horsepower street engine gain ten horsepower just by reducing the starting coolant temperature from 180 degrees to 135 degrees. That’s free horsepower.
Another trick that can go unnoticed is the configuration of the headers used in testing. For example, Westech Performance prefers to use its own dyno room headers, not only because they allow easy access to spark plugs, but also because the primary tubes extend almost horizontally from the engine. This straight shot from the exhaust port tends to improve peak horsepower with no cost to low-end power. It’s a small thing but it all adds up.
Most dyno cells also use an electric water pump to circulate water with the engine off to quickly stabilize the engine coolant temperature. But this pump also eliminates the parasitic loss of driving a water pump with the crankshaft. On a 6.0L LS engine, we’ve seen six- to eight-horsepower improvements after replacing an entire LS truck accessory drive (water pump, alternator, and power steering pump) with an electric water pump.
Street engines require an air filter, yet very few dyno sessions are performed with an air cleaner in place. However, we discovered (by accident) an eight-horsepower loss on a 550-horsepower EFI small-block when a one-inch spacer was used underneath an air cleaner base to provide clearance for throttle linkage on a four-barrel throttle body.
The spacer was necessary for the throttle linkage to clear the filter base. By adding a gentle radius to the base, we eliminated the spacer and the power came right back. Had we not tested the engine exactly the way it was going to be run in the car, we would not have discovered that power loss."
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^^^ Good post!
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What I don't want is an engine that makes 650 on the dyno and 600 in the car.
An engine will almost always show HP and torque numbers on the dyno that are higher than the ones it achieves in the car. This is because the dyno numbers are corrected to a standard set of weather conditions. Standard dyno correction is to assume sea level atmospheric pressure (29.92" barometer) and 60 degrees Fahrenheit inlet temperature. This is done so that comparisons between engines, or parts on a particular engine, are standardized. If you are any higher than sea level, or any higher in inlet temperature, the actual torque and HP numbers will go down.
On the other hand, if you are running at sea level, and with a high pressure system overhead, and the temperature is cooler than 60F, you will be making more power than what is shown on the dyno.
The dyno will show you the raw, uncorrected data as well as the corrected data, and the raw data is the power that the engine is making with the weather conditions at the dyno.
There's a bunch of information in my book about how weather conditions affect an engine's performance. It gives you the formulas to calculate correction factors so you will know how much power you are losing if you are running at, say, 1200 feet of altitude and 75 degrees F, on a low pressure day, compared to standard dyno conditions. On my dyno, at an altitude of 940 feet, I will typically see summertime correction factors in the 3% to 7% range.
Bottom line is that standard dyno numbers (assuming they are accurate) are very useful for comparisons between engines, but you aren't likely to see numbers that high during normal operation.
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Here you notice that on late summer nights, cold with slight night fog (about 10 feet above sea level)
you pick up a good amount of power. Especial noticeable on low power
engines like a Model-T or A, where you also can adjust fuelratio with the
twist of the choke nob They get a topspeed that scares you,,,not that
it takes that much to do that ;D
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Falcon67 and Jayb, Thank you for the thoughtful responses. I feel I should qualify my statement. I do know that HP on an engine dyno is difficult (maybe impossible) to duplicate in the car. I simply what to maximize the HP in the car within reason. For example, I don't want to chop up my car to fit race headers or mod the hood for a state of the art fresh air scoop. My car does street and strip duty so compromise is required.
Jay, while we are on the subject of FE Mustang headers, what headers did you use on your 69 Mach1 2005 DragWeek winner with the 511ci? Also, do you have any comments on the Hooker Supercomp 1-3/4 headers on 600+ HP FE's? I'd be grateful for your input.
-John
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Jay,s book has a lot of info on all the headers and exhaust.
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Jay,s book has a lot of info on all the headers and exhaust.
I've read it front to back and back to front. : )
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>I don't want to chop up my car to fit race headers or mod the hood for a state of the art fresh air scoop.
No problem, that's expected. Your plan should include a good dyno session and then at the strip, be prepared to mess with the WOT jetting to see if there is MPH available. As an example, I got decent AFR readings from the 302 with a t-ram and dual Edelbrock 600s. No problem driving it around, graph looked real close with out-of-the-box jetting. At the track after a number of test runs, +4% (one step in the Ed tuning book) rich primary and secondary on both carbs made best MPH.
My dragster makes easy 575HP using what look like small tubes on the headers at 1 3/4". Small compared to the 2 1/4 most of the BBC dragsters use. But - no shock towers on the rail LOL. The door car has a 351C-4V and the pipes on that are 1 7/8", and make the required quickie bends right out of the head.
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My "little" 375 Y Block made 563/595 with 1 5/8" stepped to 1 3/4" into 3 1/2" collector. Same basic set-up made 603.2 hp at EMC in another engine. So 600 hp should be doable with a 1 3/4" primary for an FE. Joe-JDC