FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: blykins on November 30, 2020, 06:25:46 PM
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I must say, Joe's on the ball down there. FedEx delivered the heads yesterday afternoon and he already has them out of the box and "pre-flowed".
Nothing special was done to these heads....no port work, no bowl work, no throat work, other than what the valve seat cutter did. Just a typical 45° valve job was completed, bronze guides were installed, and I threw some 2.080/1.600" 5/16" stem stainless valves in there.
This is how they flow as-is:
.100 70.75
.200 137.60
.300 195.26
.400 220.60
.450 228.35
.500 232.52
.550 238.48
.600 240.27
.650 240.27
.700 240.27
Exhaust
.100 45.50
.200 85.31
.300 118.61
.400 131.61
.450 134.86
.500 137.14
.550 138.44
.600 139.74
.650 139.74
.700 140.06 with short pipe 145.59
I will update this thread once Joe does some porting and updates me. Thanks Joe!
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That's getting into MR territory with just some slightly bigger valves and a valve job.
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That's getting into MR territory with just some slightly bigger valves and a valve job.
How would those compare with stock 428CJ heads?
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That's getting into MR territory with just some slightly bigger valves and a valve job.
How would those compare with stock 428CJ heads?
Here's what my 428CJ's flowed. Unported with stock size valves and 3/8" stems.
-------------Ford CJ--------
lift-------intake----exhaust
0.050-----34.0------20.8
0.100-----75.7------46.0
0.200----150.0------84.8
0.300----202.0-----118.1
0.400----228.1-----145.3
0.500----235.8-----162.7
0.600----242.9-----173.9
0.700---------------181.2
pl
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Brent,
Were the exhausts 1.60 Camel-Size or 1.65 CJ-size?
From the initial thread:
*Factory C6AE-R heads with 5/16" stem 2.080"/1.650" valves. PAC small diameter dual valve springs, 270 seat/680 open, with Manley titanium retainers. A very basic valve job was completed with a nice A-B test in mind in the future.
In any case thanks to you and Joe for getting them flowed so fast, helps keep the conversation hot.
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They were 1.600”.
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If I’m comparing the flow numbers correctly, I don’t see a massive difference between a cheap 352 head and an expensive cobra jet. The exhaust side appears to be better on a CJ, but I’d guess porting would fix that. Very interesting!
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Here's a before/after of some CJ heads that we did here. The "before" was as they sat, with factory valves and valve job. The "after" was Ferrea 2.09/1.65 valves and a good valve job.
Intake:
.1 64
.2 124
.3 182
.4 211
.5 224
.6 231
.7 236
Exhaust:
.1 52
.2 87
.3 118
.4 144
.5 164
.6 174
.7 179
After:
Intake:
.1 80
.2 139
.3 195
.4 230
.5 246
.6 253
Exhaust:
.1 64
.2 100
.3 133
.4 162
.5 181
.6 188
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If I’m comparing the flow numbers correctly, I don’t see a massive difference between a cheap 352 head and an expensive cobra jet. The exhaust side appears to be better on a CJ, but I’d guess porting would fix that. Very interesting!
You are spot on, the C6AE-R was also called the "poor man's CJ head" because it could be made into something similar.
Of course it doesn't have the pedigree/numbers for a resto build, but more importantly, the 428 PI didn't use them in late 67 and 68, they used the C7AE-A, and when the CJ came out in 68, the 428s were using a C8AE-H, both miserable heads compared to the C8OE-N and even well below a stock C6AE-R.
Thanks for sharing Brent and Joe, looking forward to the new "afters"
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Love it when the misled say a 400hp 390 or 500hp 428 is just a "cam and intake" swap, with stock heads. They're not bad at all for OEM, but it's an uphill battle working with stock heads, little work and they really wake up.
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A lot of guys I know have always had the perception that stock FE heads were pretty much all the same in the exhaust port when grouped together in the low and high port groups and that most of the differences were in the intake ports,I guess that those CJ flows blows that perception out of the water.
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Brent do you have the flow numbers for those LR heads you had ported a while back? I'd like to see how they compare
to these heads with some before and after numbers. My guess is unported LR's are on par with the CJ heads.
garyv
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Brent do you have the flow numbers for those LR heads you had ported a while back? I'd like to see how they compare
to these heads with some before and after numbers. My guess is unported LR's are on par with the CJ heads.
garyv
Somewhere.
They were C3 LR heads and I think Lawes got about 285-290 out of them.
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I was told many years ago that the CJ head is, with the exception of it's "dual" exhaust side bolt pattern, an EXACT copy of the last iteration of the lo-riser head (C4AE-H). Randy M
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Joe's finished.....
With a 2.080"/1.600" valve pair, we are at:
.100 66.24 53.62
.200 144.22 108.87
.300 208.67 130.00
.400 256.37 168.46
.450 268.29 176.56
.500 271.27 181.42
.550 274.25 184.66
.600 276.04 184.66
.650 280.22 184.66 with 2" pipe, 194.38
.700 282.01
.750 284.99
Joe picked them up 42 cfm on the intake side and 49 cfm on the exhaust side.
Thank you, Mr. Craine.
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Thats nuts!
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I can’t see why anyone would not have these LR port heads cleaned up and ported even on a mild combo, huge flow gains are just too straightforward. Even in a cruiser, you could cam down and hit the same HP goal, and there’s zero drawback (besides cost). I think they’re one of the great “deals” out there, $100 heads available all over the place, and can support 600hp if you really turn up the wick.
Took a little horse trading but I have just right at $1000 in my C1s, fully rebuilt with new guides, Ferrea valves, PAC springs/locks/retainers, flowed on a bench, and they’ll blow away a set of Edelbrocks with much better machine work and components. I think these castings are perfect for sneaky 428-462ci builds that aren’t looking to wring every last bit of power out of a combo, or looking to save $1k over a set of TFS.
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How about good port & chamber pics when you get them back.
This thread is great.
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Some before and afters from Joe...
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50702734521_090b22de3f_z.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50702734466_f9310df73a_z.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50701995423_abfea5ff50_z.jpg)
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I wonder how much the 5/16" stem is a factor?
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Joe can post up some data there.
Even if they didn't do anything for flow, they sure make the valve light.
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Purty! The chamber work should also help with detonation.
Great job Joe!
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I did not take a lot of material out of the combustion chambers because I wanted to keep the compression close for Brent. Those heads have been milled a lot, and I tried to keep from having to mill them any more to retain a specific compression ratio. I have seen race engines locally with iron heads that did not benefit from polishing the combustion chambers, and actually ran better with a rough chamber. As to the smaller valve stems, when I flowed the same heads with 11/32" straight stems, pro flow stems, 5/16" stems, there was only ~3-4 cfm difference and that at higher lift points. It is almost immeasurable if you don't complete this the same day under same circumstances. I have found different valve angles and seat angles will skew the flow more than valve stem sizes. On Brent's heads, I cut the intake valve guides down ~.050" into the iron, and tapered the guides to help take turbulence out of the port. It seemed to help a little at higher lifts, was quieter on the bench, and kept increasing flow as the lift went higher. The throat diameters are still a tad smaller than the 88-89% some folks want in a valve job. I was able to get 5 angles on these seats, but the 15* top cut blended out with the combustion chamber work. A set of larger valves and a good 5-7 angle valve job and these heads should flow ~300 cfm. Joe-JDC
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Those heads have been milled a lot....
;D
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Those are purty and I don't even know anything about porting! Interested to see what the gain will be. Fun topic.
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Joe’s got a steady hand for sure, finish and nice straight walls, that isn’t easy. Very nice.
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I did not take a lot of material out of the combustion chambers because I wanted to keep the compression close for Brent. Those heads have been milled a lot, and I tried to keep from having to mill them any more to retain a specific compression ratio. I have seen race engines locally with iron heads that did not benefit from polishing the combustion chambers, and actually ran better with a rough chamber. As to the smaller valve stems, when I flowed the same heads with 11/32" straight stems, pro flow stems, 5/16" stems, there was only ~3-4 cfm difference and that at higher lift points. It is almost immeasurable if you don't complete this the same day under same circumstances. I have found different valve angles and seat angles will skew the flow more than valve stem sizes. On Brent's heads, I cut the intake valve guides down ~.050" into the iron, and tapered the guides to help take turbulence out of the port. It seemed to help a little at higher lifts, was quieter on the bench, and kept increasing flow as the lift went higher. The throat diameters are still a tad smaller than the 88-89% some folks want in a valve job. I was able to get 5 angles on these seats, but the 15* top cut blended out with the combustion chamber work. A set of larger valves and a good 5-7 angle valve job and these heads should flow ~300 cfm. Joe-JDC
What angles do you use to make up a 6-7 angle seat/throat? I've used a 5 angle for years using the typical 75-60-45-30-15 deg seat. Thanks for any help you can provide.
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A lot of guys are experimenting with seats at 47*, 50*, 52*, 55*, and throat of even up to 80* with top angles of 32*, 20* etc. There are also radius cutters with a seat angle only. Gets crazy when the seats are 1* different than the valve angles. I just got two new cutters with 31* and 46* for an interference seat fit where you just "ping" the intake valve to assure it seats all the way around. Joe-JDC
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What burrs are you using, Joe? What about sanding rolls; any grit progression?
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It's my understanding that the 50° and higher seat angles, give better high lift flow, at the expense of low lift. Some porters, at least, in part, do that to keep from loosing as much of the intake charge out the Ex with large over lap's. Some use 40° seats to encourage low lift flow, also.
Besides the 32° & 20°, top cuts, I've also seen 27° or 28°, too.
I've studied aerodynamics and from that stand point, you don't want angles of more than 12°, in general, as that's where stall starts.
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Didn't Ford use a radius seat on I think the Tunnelport ?
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What burrs are you using, Joe? What about sanding rolls; any grit progression?
[/quote]
On iron heads, I use a variety of stones, burrs, cartridge rolls, and sanding flappers. After scribing the ports, I also scribe the pushrod tube holes so I know how close I am to those. I usually start with the intake bowls first, then intake ports, and finally short turn, then exhausts the same progression. Combustion chambers last. I cut the valve guide bosses first to establish the curvature of the bowl and area/distance between the guide and roof walls. I do this first so I can control the amount of material removed to be safe and not grind a hole. I usually use a carbide ball to establish this radius and distance. Smaller ball on the tight side, and larger ball on the swirl side. Next I use stones in various sizes and shapes to remove all the metal I want all the way out to the seat and back out to the port opening. Always, always work from the innermost point out to the seat or port opening. If you start at the gasket and go in, you will make a mess. Next I use carbides to smooth up the stone marks, and get the rough size and shape I want. Some porters want to leave a rough carbide burr finish, but I prefer to go the extra steps and finish the ports with a #50 cartridge roll finish on the intake ports, and polish the exhaust ports with a 100-120 grit cartridge roll. I use 36 to 60 to 80 grit to get all the sides and floor the final shape I want, then finish the ports with a 6" mandrel and 50 grit cartridge roll. After that, I use another mandrel with slot and piece of crocus sanding roll cloth at 50 grit to flap the entire port to remove any irregularities and stray cartridge roll marks. I polish the exhaust ports the same way with a 120 grit flapper crocus cloth.
I studied with a master porter who supplied Ford heads for competition in SCCA mustangs, and Buick heads for the GTP race cars back in the late '80s and early '90s and did my first flow bench work while working at that shop. I have been a one man shop for the last 30 years, working with several local machine shops and racing shops. I built a shop at home 21 years ago, and have my own SF-600 flow bench, porting booth with dust collection ability, and enough equipment to assemble all my engines, and work on my own vehicles with a lift.
Here are a few of the tools used to port heads and intake manifolds. Joe-JDC
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Thanks, Joe. That is more explicit detail than I have ever seen anywhere and will be helpful to me as I have some garden variety FE heads I'd like to tart up. Your knowledge is a tremendous value to this forum and I for one appreciate it.
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As do I... Thank you. It is greatly appreciated.
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Best FE forum, best FE folks ......
Ricky.
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That's a lot of money in carbide bits sitting there. Do you do each stage to each port, then move on to the next stage for each port, or do you concentrate on one port at a time? To me anyway, it seems easier to match work when doing one step to every port so that you are repeating the same job. But you have way more experience, so it might just come natural to you to do each port individually.
Then how do you start matching ports? I'm assuming you finish the head, then try to match flows to the best port?
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Joe, have you ever used a tool called a Dyna Flex? It`s a belt drive hand sander we use to polish SST welds and other contour places on tubing. I personally have used it on heads to clean casting to a smooth surface.
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I ment to say Dyna File, Not dyna Flex.
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I always try to use the same carbide/stone/cartridge roll on all eight ports instead of working one port at the time. It is a waste of time and energy to have to change the bits for each operation if you try to finish one port at the time. It is much quicker overall to do the same operation to every port. I do keep the different die grinders loaded with different sizes so that all I have to do is grab the next one to work in the same area without having to turn the head over multiple times. I use a simple 8" hand sander from Lowes with sheet sandpaper for straight edges like the firedeck, intake manifold side, exhaust ports, etc. to clean them before scribing, flowing on flow bench, and after finishing up. Keeps the straight edges clean and neat looking. One of the best devices I have found to save cartridge rolls from destroying themselves with high speed die grinders is the router adapter for speed control. It allows me to slow down my die grinder and get the finish I need. Better torque than using the air grinders and pressure control of speed. I also use 1/4" teflon tubing on the shanks of the 6" long carbides when trying to protect aluminum deep inside a port from the shanks biting the aluminum and making divots in the wrong spots. Doesn't affect balance of the carbide, and saves having to rework errors. I use WD-40 spray on my carbide burrs to keep them from loading up when working cast aluminum. Makes the carbides stay sharper much longer and leaves a clean cut into the aluminum. Joe-JDC
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Joe you are giving away all your secrets lol..
We are fortunate on this forum to have someone with Joe's skill and experience and who will share his knowledge.
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I will be 75 my birthday, so my "secrets" need to be passed on to someone who will use them. The more a person does this kind of work, the more everyone's work starts to look the same since you can only do so much with these old iron heads. Porting is taking away metal to gain airflow, you just have to learn where to take it out and not make things worse, or worse yet, make holes. Joe-JDC
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So for someone who doesn't know. Is 42cfm a big gain?
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So for someone who doesn't know. Is 42cfm a big gain?
Yep, a very big gain.
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So for someone who doesn't know. Is 42cfm a big gain?
Could be an 80+ hp gain in the right combo
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Wow, up to 80hp? I wasn't expecting that.