FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: chilly460 on May 29, 2020, 06:14:59 PM
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Finally got into the 352 short track engine that I picked up awhile back, my father crewed on the car that ran 352s in NewYork starting in ‘66. This is their last iteration, odd little combo. Had one 427 LR head and one standard C1AE head, lightened lemans rods, Jahns domed pistons, and a C4AE-B “high riser” cam.
I picked up another C1 and ported them, they are being finished by Les Schmader, and have a Street Dominator for it. I was going to run a 247* SFT I have on the shelf, but I’m really trying to keep it as original as possible so now will likely go with the Ford cam which I understand is old school lazy but should sound great and is a decent match for the topend it’ll have.
Another oddity, .050” over on 1&4 and .040” in other cylinders, they were a shoestring budget team and basically slapped it together as cheap as they could back then. I have no interest in fixing the sins, whole intent is to build it for my father as close to as it was as possible.
So, to the questions. #5 has some surface rust in it, they coated it with grease but that hole got a dose of rust. Best way to get this out? Figure I can scrub it with a scotch Brite and diesel then ball hone? Also, are grooved mains normal? Finally, any way to tell if the pistons are forged or cast? Odd looking unit with the concentric grooves in the Skirts
(https://i.postimg.cc/fRYf1VrH/2-D854892-BD13-4-E70-AB4-B-471-A83724-D I’ll I’ll C8.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZKGLf8VB/D1-B38-E93-0-C62-491-A-B30-B-733-EEBC33-C6-E.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/xTJRyxyV/EAD89-E76-B7-FC-472-F-B08-C-807-E186-C871-D.jpg)
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Also, I know the right thing to do is have a shop hone it, etc....but this is just a side project being done on the super cheap.
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Rifle brushes for the holes. Teflon pin buttons!
I'd do what they (obviously) did. Ball hone it and have a go!
Bet they tore that sucker down numerous times, bored and honed only where needed, slapped it back together and ran it, hence the uneven bore sizes.
Clearly Jahns forged pistons (and I don't think they ever sold cast ones) with a skirt design that is really old school, just like the grooved mains that were popular way back then.
Cool engine!
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Cool, thank you. Yep was thinking the pistons are forged, especially being domes. Rod bearings were stamped ‘69 Clevites, the mains were Ford apparently made in 1970, pretty cool tearing it down.
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Excellent grassroots!
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Are you sure its a 352 and not a 390-406 the mains and short rods 352 rods are longer i think.The pistons may have the pins made to work with 390-428 style rods not sure low riser valves will clear a 4.00 bore just had to ask.
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Definitely a 352, 4.040” bore and a 2T crank. Cylinders are notched to clear big valves.
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Are those custom pistons or forged 332?
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Are those custom pistons or forged 332?
Seems I saw a set of forged 332 pistons on Ebay at one time.
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To me, the interior, that's visible, looks like a forged piston (smooth flowing contour), not the rougher cast interior the cast has.
If you can give the measurement, from the top of the pin hole to the piston top, we could have the CH.
The grooving that the outside of the piston has, kinda reminds me of Grant pistons.
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just out of curiosity, what track did they run, growing up in N.Y. I used to go to a lot of the dirt tracks and some asphalt?
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Ebay has some old jahns books look under jahns pistons.
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Rifle brushes for the holes. Teflon pin buttons!
I'd do what they (obviously) did. Ball hone it and have a go!
Bet they tore that sucker down numerous times, bored and honed only where needed, slapped it back together and ran it, hence the uneven bore sizes.
Clearly Jahns forged pistons (and I don't think they ever sold cast ones) with a skirt design that is really old school, just like the grooved mains that were popular way back then.
Cool engine!
Jahns did indeed sell cast pistons. My 60 Starliner had Jahns cast domed pistons in the hi-po 360hp/352 the car came with. I never did a compression ratio calculation with the domed pistons with the hi-po 59cc heads that were on it but it must have been a lot. The pistons were scrapped as 5 of the 8 had at least 2 cracks in the pin boss area and a couple had 4 cracks. Considering what I put that engine thru it kinda scared me now knowing the condition those pistons were in.
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Rifle brushes for the holes. Teflon pin buttons!
I'd do what they (obviously) did. Ball hone it and have a go!
Bet they tore that sucker down numerous times, bored and honed only where needed, slapped it back together and ran it, hence the uneven bore sizes.
Clearly Jahns forged pistons (and I don't think they ever sold cast ones) with a skirt design that is really old school, just like the grooved mains that were popular way back then.
Cool engine!
Jahns did indeed sell cast pistons. My 60 Starliner had Jahns cast domed pistons in the hi-po 360hp/352 the car came with. I never did a compression ratio calculation with the domed pistons with the hi-po 59cc heads that were on it but it must have been a lot. The pistons were scrapped as 5 of the 8 had at least 2 cracks in the pin boss area and a couple had 4 cracks. Considering what I put that engine thru it kinda scared me now knowing the condition those pistons were in.
Good to know....too bad they sold faulty cast units.
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Plot thickens, rust in #5 was a bit worse then “surface”. Cleaned it up with scotchbrite and there are light pits, and the rust area feels slightly raised. Now, normal rebuild is bore it no question. With this deal I can’t bore it and run out and buy another piston. Would something like this clean up with a ball hone or one of the 3 stone hones enough to at least live?
I will say pic makes it look much worse than it really is
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZRVbn3JK/573798-AC-4-AA1-4-A2-E-B795-0-B131-AB5-E5-A1.jpg)
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just out of curiosity, what track did they run, growing up in N.Y. I used to go to a lot of the dirt tracks and some asphalt?
Lancaster, Spencer, and Cayuga
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All you can do is try it. I'd try the ball hone 1st.
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went to cayuga once in the early 70s, i lived near middletown, so mainly went there and syracuse, lebanon valley. Used to love watching the few fe's run and win.
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Well, I also collect old tractors and there are a lot of guys that say they have run cylinder walls, worse than that. They even claim that they don't have much/any blow by. But, I wouldn't do it, myself. Honing will take at least .002 out, in that area, just to look half way decent. That opens ring gap by .006 or more, when it crosses that area.
I think it begs to have all 8 cyl at 4.060. It will be very expensive to to it with forged pistons but, very rewarding, too. I would just call it a refresh of the engine.
You'll want a CH of 1.88 (0.000 deck) if, it hasn't been decked. Most OEM style pistons for the 352, are 1.825.
Edit:
I forgot about the LeMans rods. It should be 1.932, instead of 1.880.
I just thought of another option:
Have it honed a additional .005, knurl the piston to fit and see if you can find a .005 over, "file fit" ring for that bore.
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Hard to measure with the dome, but compression height looks to be 1.9375. I really don’t see putting new pistons in this thing, for one it takes away big time from the nostalgia aspect, plus new pistons plus boring is definitely not in the budget as this is a side project while parts are coming together for a 462 stroker.
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Are those custom pistons or forged 332?
Did you figure the pistons out?
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Yep,.......... find someone with one of the old true big piston knurling machines (if possible?) have them knurl the pistons aggressively for the maximum effect possible, then see what you have to work with. And stop with the "Ball-Hone" aka "Dingleberry-Hone" stuff, and have a decent honeing effort, even though it will probably still look like shyt!; and the shop will probably look at you like your nuts, and want you to sign something stating you were advised against what you are attempting and it's not their fault in the end. But you know, sometimes you'll be amazed at how bad some cylinder walls look on a tear-down, yet the thing didn't look that bad from the outside when it was running! :o
Just remember, no promises! ::)
Scott.
P.S. Randy, just pretend like you didn't see this post! :)
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Are those custom pistons or forged 332?
Did you figure the pistons out?
The compression height as measured it was closer to a 332 piston, guessing a way to run a short rod 352
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Cool old-timey build!
2nd on knurling the pistons and machine shop hone. That'll work fine for your application.
I have a set of cast Jahns pistons and a set of forged. I can drag them off of the junk pile if anyone needs to see the differences. The old Jahns pistons, cast or forged, are really heavy.
The Holley Street Dominator is a great intake manifold but seems to not fit the nostalgia of your build. Maybe see if you can trade it for an Edelbrock F-427.
I have a grooved main C4 427 cast crank on the junk pile. Haven't used a 3.78 stroke crank since the '80's so it sits.
What distributor are you going to use?
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Plot thickens, rust in #5 was a bit worse then “surface”. Cleaned it up with scotchbrite and there are light pits, and the rust area feels slightly raised. Now, normal rebuild is bore it no question. With this deal I can’t bore it and run out and buy another piston. Would something like this clean up with a ball hone or one of the 3 stone hones enough to at least live?
I will say pic makes it look much worse than it really is
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZRVbn3JK/573798-AC-4-AA1-4-A2-E-B795-0-B131-AB5-E5-A1.jpg)
Cool build. The old man will be beaming.
Since it probably won't be a daily driver, I'd dingle berry scuff all 8 cylinders and build it.
I built a 416 several years ago that had a few really ugly cylinders. It uses some oil but it hauls my Highboy pretty well.
Photobucket jacked my pics but maybe you can see how my cylinders looked. Way ugly...
http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=4509.msg47481#msg47481
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Thanks for the replies, all appreciated and helpful.
Another question, this thing has nasty carbon on the pistons, any easy tricks to clean? I soaked them in diesel for a few hours and it didn’t soften it at all. They’re soaking in the Tractor Supply parts cleaner now so we’ll see how that does. I’ve cleaned plenty of parts before but this is tough stuff.
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Cool old-timey build!
2nd on knurling the pistons and machine shop hone. That'll work fine for your application.
I have a set of cast Jahns pistons and a set of forged. I can drag them off of the junk pile if anyone needs to see the differences. The old Jahns pistons, cast or forged, are really heavy.
The Holley Street Dominator is a great intake manifold but seems to not fit the nostalgia of your build. Maybe see if you can trade it for an Edelbrock F-427.
I have a grooved main C4 427 cast crank on the junk pile. Haven't used a 3.78 stroke crank since the '80's so it sits.
What distributor are you going to use?
If you feel like pulling them off the pile, I would like to know for sure what I have, curiosity and all. I have the distributor that was in the original 390 in my Merc, so I was going to use that since it’s laying around and free.
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Thanks for the replies, all appreciated and helpful.
Another question, this thing has nasty carbon on the pistons, any easy tricks to clean? I soaked them in diesel for a few hours and it didn’t soften it at all. They’re soaking in the Tractor Supply parts cleaner now so we’ll see how that does. I’ve cleaned plenty of parts before but this is tough stuff.
https://www.google.com/search?q=piston+carbon+cleaner&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS768US768&oq=piston+carbon&aqs=chrome.0.0j69i57j0l6.4371j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#kpvalbx=_Hv_TXs6yDYmUtAa7hpjgBA28
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I'm sure it would almost, impossible to find but, a W&H Dual Coil dist would give the best spark, for a points system and is of that era. I have one for a 289/302. They were the next step down from a mag, at that time.
They are two timed, 4 cyl ignitions, under one cap. With 2 modern coils, such as the Pertronix Flame-Thrower Coil, it would throw a hell of a spark. They are 100% better than the dual point dist.
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I found a very old bottle of GM Topend Cleaner in the chemical pile and that worked nice, and lacquer thinner worked well too
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Little work today
(https://i.postimg.cc/1tTD0vNY/F0-CDE726-F072-4-BD9-8-C42-9-EBB28065-CDF.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/13ccx0Lf/0-AFE3-FDA-2-ED2-4-E72-93-E8-65-BAFEB848-EE.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/nL34rFVx/207-FEB15-89-F9-4185-9-E5-D-30-BDCD1-A502-F.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/k5JN76mw/47-B3-F280-D43-C-4697-BEFD-4-D72-BA79-C2-A0.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/brtkm1xY/1-B420-E91-2-ABF-4-C04-809-C-3-D5-FBE99-CBFB.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/vBDW6JDV/23-FA3218-2-D61-4-E42-AFC2-0-B1-BC0-A52610.jpg)
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Nice pics. Man, those pistons look H-E-A-V-Y indeed!
The mark looks like something got into the intake tract. Bolt, nut, stone?
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I have to clean up the rest of them, thsts #1, #7 has the same mark so it’s something consistent. I assume it’s been self clearanced by now but we will see
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It could have had some small chambered heads on it at one time that tagged the piston like that.
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The heads are still at the shop, I may snag the spare C1 head I have in the shed to mock it up in the meantime. I turned it over when I bought it and didn’t feel anything crunch so likely a wound from an old combo as you said. Story goes they scattered a bunch of parts before they finally took it to a shop to be built, so there was some “trial and error” for sure. I did pull the valley plugs and the lifters have been restricted with a .060” or so hole in the galley plug, and the oil pump passage has been radiused so someone at least knew a few FE tricks
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C2 and C3 heads have sort of a point where the spark plug is. With those pistons it doesn't look like a C0AE-D head would have been able to sit flat on the deck surface.
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I did get to CC the pistons today, they're about a 12cc dome with 3cc worth of valve relief, so 9cc net. Don't have all the head gasket info and my heads to finalize CR, but should be close to 10.2:1
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in early 60s bored a 352 1/8 and used 3.50 crank and jahn's pistons with a lot of compression cam was isky roller with two ears on one side of lifter and one ear on the other to attempt to keep the lifter in place hi-po 352 heads the thing would rev. like hell and was loud as hell rollers didn't stay put and could break any oem rod -friend hit throttle in garage a little to much blew clutch disk without trying-!! would like to see this project complete please use a good aftermaket rod!! myself and many friends lost a lot of good old motors in the day as many rods break 1-11/2 in below pin if you measure the web in the rod (thickness) you will scare yourself lemans rods too! good luck -oldiron. fe
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Chilly, how did you measure the domes? I have a set of old Venolias here in a 454 FE and always looking for neat techniques
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in early 60s bored a 352 1/8 and used 3.50 crank and jahn's pistons with a lot of compression cam was isky roller with two ears on one side of lifter and one ear on the other to attempt to keep the lifter in place hi-po 352 heads the thing would rev. like hell and was loud as hell rollers didn't stay put and could break any oem rod -friend hit throttle in garage a little to much blew clutch disk without trying-!! would like to see this project complete please use a good aftermaket rod!! myself and many friends lost a lot of good old motors in the day as many rods break 1-11/2 in below pin if you measure the web in the rod (thickness) you will scare yourself lemans rods too! good luck -oldiron. fe
You must be about my age (75). Those early Jahn's, now JE pistons were pretty heavy, especially with domes and I would guess that, that's what pulled those rods apart. I had TRW's in my LR and a Herbert roller but, didn't have any problems with the 13/32 bolt rods.
Also, you don't want to admit that you bored a 352, 1/8. It can get you in trouble here :)
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in early 60s bored a 352 1/8 and used 3.50 crank and jahn's pistons with a lot of compression cam was isky roller with two ears on one side of lifter and one ear on the other to attempt to keep the lifter in place hi-po 352 heads the thing would rev. like hell and was loud as hell rollers didn't stay put and could break any oem rod -friend hit throttle in garage a little to much blew clutch disk without trying-!! would like to see this project complete please use a good aftermaket rod!! myself and many friends lost a lot of good old motors in the day as many rods break 1-11/2 in below pin if you measure the web in the rod (thickness) you will scare yourself lemans rods too! good luck -oldiron. fe
You must be about my age (75). Those early Jahn's, now JE pistons were pretty heavy, especially with domes and I would guess that, that's what pulled those rods apart. I had TRW's in my LR and a Herbert roller but, didn't have any problems with the 13/32 bolt rods.
Also, you don't want to admit that you bored a 352, 1/8. It can get you in trouble here :)
Did a TRW publication tell you to say that? ;)
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Chilly, how did you measure the domes? I have a set of old Venolias here in a 454 FE and always looking for neat techniques
Well, nothing high tech. I CC’d the valve reliefs, then pressed the domes into some Play-Doh and cc’d the dome impression.
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If you want a measurement including the crevice volume, you can also grease up a top ring, put it on the piston, set the piston down X.XXX" down the hole, figure out the volume for a cylinder that's the diameter of your bore with X.XXX" length, and then subtract what your burette measurement is.
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old(77) old iron just remember there is a life cycle out there ( old circle tracker 5/8 mi) and thin webs hit many of us street strip friend bought new sideoiler shortblock from dealer for his 67 fairlane late 60s around 4500 rod broke below pin i know alot of oem rods have run just fine but why chance it today help oldiron survive remember the hi-risers and hollow stem valves!!! heads (good ones) hard to find today yes the bigger bolts helped and used the big ford nascar bolts in early lemans rods don't care how it looks--go fast---!
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If you want a measurement including the crevice volume, you can also grease up a top ring, put it on the piston, set the piston down X.XXX" down the hole, figure out the volume for a cylinder that's the diameter of your bore with X.XXX" length, and then subtract what your burette measurement is.
But then you don't get to play with Play-Doh....
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If you want a measurement including the crevice volume, you can also grease up a top ring, put it on the piston, set the piston down X.XXX" down the hole, figure out the volume for a cylinder that's the diameter of your bore with X.XXX" length, and then subtract what your burette measurement is.
But then you don't get to play with Play-Doh....
You got me there.
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I have a 427 that broke a rod in the same place put a window in each side of the block just on top of the pan rail.They went out on the track and found the block parts and brazed them back in ran it for years.They said they got hit i in the ass hard and tried to spin it backwards is what they thought broke the rod
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I have a 427 that broke a rod in the same place put a window in each side of the block just on top of the pan rail.They went out on the track and found the block parts and brazed them back in ran it for years.They said they got hit i in the ass hard and tried to spin it backwards is what they thought broke the rod
Before the 426 Hemi came to power, so to speak, in the nitro classes, old 392's were routinely patched up just as you noted since even then, say 1966 or so, the old school Hemis were getting rare in junkyards. The newer and better version of the Hemi design were plentiful as Chrysler made a lot of 426 spare parts and even what came to be known as crate motors. Funny, but I do know a lot of the teams literally junked a lot of brand new engine parts to get only what they wanted: Kellogg cranks, the blocks, heads, rocker assemblies, valve covers and precious little else. I guess they sold off the carbs but the dual quad intakes, pistons, steel rods and more were sold for a song or scrapped.
What would many would pay for those parts today, eh?
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Took a little work, but found an incredible old school machine shop in town that's going to knurl the two pistons that are in the .050" over cylinders to tighten them up a bit. I know, it's hack, but goes with the theme of this whole deal. Did confirm they're forged pistons by the way, found pic in old Jahns catalog that showed them as forged model, and the old boy at the shop verifed they don't have enough bracing and such to be a cast piston.
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Dredging this one back up. Life got in the way with distractions so this went on the back burner for awhile. Bought an F100 and a Fairlane, got two new puppies...no time for an old race motor.
Bringing it up to speed, I got the pistons knurled at another shop, rods resized with ARP bolts, and after getting the heads back decided it needed to run a hydraulic roller as the takeoff TFS springs had ~420lbs open pressure as I recall. Happened to have a mike jones cam I wasn't using with 235/239 .612/.600 that should match the intent pretty well. Yep, roller and morels in a pile of crap, but oh well. Heads flow 295cfm @ .600 so if this thing actually stays in one piece, it could make some power. Thinking it should peak around 6200-6300 with this cam? Will be running a ported street dominator.
It was great walking the old man through it last weekend, they just slammed them together back in the day so he's never used a mic or a dial indicator. Not that I'm an expert as I'm just learning as well. Bottom end is buttoned up, deck clearance measured at .015-.025, cam degreed in perfectly at 108ICL on a 112. I'm a little worried about PtoV, have a pushrod checker coming in. I made one that I used on my 390 but this setup is taller and I barely had any thread engagement, decided to try it anyway and it crumpled the checker once I got a little lift going. The valves in the old combo must've hit the cylinders as both intake and exhaust sides have been clearanced. Intake side was done with a die grinder or hand file, really ratty, but the exhaust side they did some sort of milling to make the notches, although they're at different depths. Just another time I asked the old man exactly how much beer they drank when working on this thing. I mocked it up and had .720" before the exhaust valve hit on the shallowest relief, without a head gasket, so think it'll be ok.
I have stock adjustable rockers, I have a set of POP end supports on the way but was just going to run stock inner stands and shafts, assume it'll be alright. Melling pump, Comp timing chain were found on the parts pile...and I get to finally use the ARP pump drive that I've had in the toolbox for 20yrs for some unknown reason.
The "sins" in this engine keep mounting but if it holds together that'll be part of the fun. .050 and .040 bores, pitted bores, knurled pistons, 332 FE pistons, LeMans rods that looks like they were lightened by one of my dad's buddies after his first six pack of the night, .025 deck clearance, valve notches all over the place...we'll see how it goes
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZqvkqWqF/1.jpg)
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Nice job!
What valve size on the heads? 2.09"?
Did you have to re-balance for the capscrew rods?
The street dominator - did you ever measure port CSA? at plenum opening? In the runner? I have always wanted to know what the CSA is on those manifolds. The Street Master was around 2.3 square inches at the plenum opening (unported).
Cheers!!
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The rods were in it so I didn’t rebalance, I know technically with new bolts and rings maybe it would need a balance but for this deal it’s going back together.
I haven’t really looked at the intake yet, just been trying to get the long block together to this point. I’ll have to study on it a bit, I’ll likely not try to match the floor of the heads since the LR ports are so low, just as one thought
Valves are 2.15/1.65 TFS takeouts, got a good deal on them and put them to use, if I knew they’d end up in a small bore I’d have gone smaller. Side note, engine had a 427 head with 2.09s in it and one head with 2.03 standard head on it, was run that way as a racer back in the day.