Author Topic: 445 mud motor build (Read 26772 times)

KMcCullah · « **on:** August 27, 2012, 05:26:00 PM »

Just wrapped up mud racing last weekend. I did 5 different races this year and took 2nd place 4 times! I'm sick and tired of that for sure. Especially when its stroked small block chebbies that are doing all the winning!!
The 390 I've been racing has been a reliable overachiever and will be tamed down a bit and used in a 77 highboy.
So I'm getting started on a 445 for my 72 F250. This is the truck my dad bought in 1978 or so.
The heads are C4AE 6090G castings.
Each head had several broken bolts in the upper exhaust flanges. After sacrificing many 7/16 nuts and a 3/8 tap, I was able to get the flanges in working order. Two studs had to be drilled out. The tap was cut short and threaded in from the back side of the flanges after drilling since good threads were there.

Edit- still trying to post nice pics without doing the attachment deal.
Editx2- Figured out the photobucket website.

jayb · « **Reply #1 on:** August 27, 2012, 09:25:05 PM »

Getting those frozen bolts out of the top exhaust holes is a miserable job, for sure. Looks like you've got it handled. Are you going to do any porting work on the heads? What size valves are you looking at? Get those heads in shape, because the 445 will need a lot more air than the 390...

KMcCullah · « **Reply #2 on:** August 28, 2012, 10:18:41 AM »

Yes sir! These heads will be the big consumer of my manhours for this build. I just picked up a Milwaukee die grinder with a big variety of burs and cartridge rolls. The grinder is just a on or off deal so I'm in the process of putting a dimmer switch and outlet together to get a variable speed grinder.
Valves will be CJ size. 2.09in 1.65ex.
I've been talking to several local hotrod guys, asking about flow machines. So I've got a few leads now.

DEANs427 · « **Reply #3 on:** August 29, 2012, 03:52:59 PM »

I worked on my brothers 428 mudder a few years back, you need to put the hardest exhaust seats you can find in those heads or it WILL pound them out in short order.

Heo · « **Reply #4 on:** August 31, 2012, 05:31:57 PM »

Quote from: jayb on August 27, 2012, 09:25:05 PM

Getting those frozen bolts out of the top exhaust holes is a miserable job, for sure. Looks like you've got it handled. Are you going to do any porting work on the heads? What size valves are you looking at? Get those heads in shape, because the 445 will need a lot more air than the 390...

I fix the frozen bolts this way.I drill in the center with a 1/4 inch drill
all the way through then i take a big washer with a hole big enough
for the bolt and tigweld the washer to the bolt then weld a nut to the
washer let it cool for a couple of minutes the just unscrew it
the weld makes the bolt to shrink and with the 1/4 inch hole in the
bolt it shrinks more

My427stang · « **Reply #5 on:** August 31, 2012, 05:40:42 PM »

Are you planning on headers?

If so, I think its tough to find a set of headers with the early port design. That's why I stayed with my D2s. I actually tried Hedman truck headers on a friend's Edelbrock heads (same exhaust port as yours) and I couldn't have made the ports match exactly, and close enough too some pretty serious slotting of the holes to the point I didn't know if I could get a wrench on it if I did it

KMcCullah · « **Reply #6 on:** August 31, 2012, 07:13:27 PM »

I'm running a set of fenderwell headers now with C1AE 6090A heads. But like you said, they don't line up very well. I did slot the flanges a bit but things are still not quite right.
I keep seeing FE header flanges on epay, so I think I will build a new set of fendewell headers. Speedway motors has bent tube kits that look easy. Heck, anybody can build headers! lol

My427stang · « **Reply #7 on:** August 31, 2012, 07:17:32 PM »

Sounds like a good plan to me!

KMcCullah · « **Reply #8 on:** September 03, 2012, 02:37:24 PM »

This is the D4TE block that I picked up for the build. It had two thrown rods,#3 and #7. Kinda strange I thought. The only obvious damage I see is a chip on the bottom of the #7 cylinder.

The bores are standard 4.050. So before I invest time and $$$ in this thing, I hope you guys will chime in with some priceless wisdom.

jmlay · « **Reply #9 on:** September 07, 2012, 10:54:02 AM »

I am not sure haw far you plan to bore it but there are some fairly decent dings in the cylender wall. I hope they are not too deep where boring woud not remove them or you have to go excessivly over size.

KMcCullah · « **Reply #10 on:** September 07, 2012, 11:16:36 AM »

Yea the dings worry me too. My thumb nail guage tells me the dings are .010 to .015 deep. I'm hoping the thing will clean up at 4.070. I would rather have thick cylinder walls than a few extra cubes. I need to set up a bore mic and measure the ding depths.
Roughing out the damaged bores to see where or if they will finish up before ordering the stroker kit may be wise also.

KMcCullah · « **Reply #11 on:** January 05, 2013, 10:51:29 PM »

After a bunch of life happenings, I'm back. The scope of the project will have to downsize, so for now I will have to settle for heads, intake and headers. I can squeeze another year out of the 390 short block.
A few months ago I removed some broken bolts from the upper exhaust flanges. A few of the holes we're really ugly. Bolts rattled in the remaining threads. 2 of the holes had been drilled by the previous owner(s) and tapped 1/4" off center. The remaining pieces of broken bolts were left in and tapped.

What a mess! So I made some threaded sleeves with 9/16-12 threads on the O.D. and tapped 3/8-16. The off center holes were plunged thru with a end mill and tapped 9/16-12. Now the holes are back on center!

I dimpled the threads with a center punch for an interference fit and installed the sleeves with a bolt and a jam nut, leaving a 1/16 or so standing proud for milling.

I milled .020 off of the exhaust flanges and still had some ate up spots.

It would have taken .060 to make that flange pretty. Will use some high temp pooky on that one.
So the rest of the required parts are on the way. Got a smokin' deal on a set of Manley 427 exhaust valves on epay. I did some wishful messing out in the garage today. Tried the full size exhaust valves with a std bore 390 block.

1.75 no go! Going to have to be around CJ size. Maybe see what 1.66 looks like. On the intake side will see how 2.15 fits.

jayb · « **Reply #12 on:** January 05, 2013, 11:29:37 PM »

Nice work on those heads! Looks like a solid repair, and definitely worth it to save an otherwise problem set. FYI I've cut the exhaust flange on heads .060" before with no issues, but I'm sure you can seal them up as is with some high temp RTV.

machoneman · « **Reply #13 on:** January 06, 2013, 12:15:43 PM »

Wow, that is nice work indeed. I'd not worry about the entire perimeter of each flange as the one shown has more than enough flat area to seal well.....JMO.

drdano · « **Reply #14 on:** January 08, 2013, 05:53:24 PM »

I dig the DIY Keen-serts. Did you tap a bolt shank with threads or actually cut the outer threads yourself? Should be a long lasting fix.

390 Cougar Conv · « **Reply #15 on:** January 08, 2013, 08:32:14 PM »

I have had great luck with the bolt repair. That is one solid repair. That's saving money!!! Clifford

KMcCullah · « **Reply #16 on:** January 08, 2013, 08:35:09 PM »

Thanks guys! I'm all for using Heli-coils when possible but with some of the holes being so far off center, plan "B" was necessary. I could have used Keen-serts but cheaped out. Instead I made some out of 12L14 (leaded steel). My part time employer has several Mazak Quick turns that sit idle on swing shift. It took 10 minutes to write the program and 3 minutes to crank out 10 threaded sleeves.

390 Cougar Conv · « **Reply #17 on:** January 08, 2013, 11:49:52 PM »

I have had great luck with the bolt repair. That is one solid repair. That's saving money!!! Clifford

fe66comet · « **Reply #18 on:** January 09, 2013, 11:45:58 AM »

I have used the same technique on many old parts that were hard to replace or expensive to remove. Also aluminum parts where electrolysis took the threads out. I use green lock-tight to lock the repair in place so later it does not back out when serviced.

KMcCullah · « **Reply #19 on:** January 22, 2013, 09:13:54 PM »

Well I settled at 1.65 for the exhaust valve diameter. 1.66 was brushing the 4.050 cylinder wall. I hope those valves locations don't vary too much.
After a long talk with Les Schmader, I sent everything to him. In our long talk I found out he has done some mud racing also, so he was pretty excited with this project. He says he's pretty busy right now so will see how long he takes. He's had really good results with the C4AE castings in the past. 295/200 is what he says to expect.
Now I'm stuck trying to calculate my DCR. My pistons had a big dome that I turned .110 off of back in the 80's and I don't know what the remaining dome cc volume is. An old TRW catalog would be helpful I think. Pistons are L2292 with a 12:1 compression ratio originally IIRC. Any thoughts?

kevin · « **Reply #20 on:** January 23, 2013, 01:53:00 AM »

Kevin. 1977 TRW catalog # rc-277 gives no dome volume just a compression height=1.775
and a dome hight of 0.225" for 4.050 bore, 0.215 for the plus 030" and 0.195" for the plus 060"
hope this is of some help.

Kevin.NZ.

My427stang · « **Reply #21 on:** January 23, 2013, 06:44:43 AM »

Les did nice work on my D2 heads and years ago a friend and I did a 445 with a set of his ported early heads

I was very impressed by both for the cost, and I like dealing with Les very much, I think you will be happy. Be ready though, he is not slow, but not super fast either, the hot rod stuff is gap filler for production business that keeps the money coming in.

FWIW .. here is a pic of some C8s on a standard bore 390, they are tight. This is a 2.15/1.67 combo in a 4.05 bore, keep in mind, the valve gets tighter as it opens, so if you are running big lift, be careful

KMcCullah · « **Reply #22 on:** January 23, 2013, 10:45:22 AM »

Kevin- Thank you for the data. I knew sombody had to have an old TRW catalog. Now for more math.
Ross- Thank you for the pics and advice. I saw exactly the same thing when I mocked my stuff together. And also noticed the valve getting close with more lift. At .800 lift I had contact. At .600 about .010 clearance.
Go Les go! I can't wait!

KMcCullah · « **Reply #23 on:** February 04, 2013, 08:50:59 PM »

Every once in a while, my elcheapo personality pays me a visit. This time around he left me with some ideas for a DIY degree wheel. My old Crane cams wheel is small and pretty ugly.
So with the help of a buddy, we whipped up a degree wheel in Solidworks and printed it out.

So now I will get it laminated, cut it out and stick it to a piece of 16ga aluminum sheet.
I just couldn't justify shelling out for one of those neat 16" Comp Cams wheels and only using it once every few years.

fe66comet · « **Reply #24 on:** February 04, 2013, 09:52:45 PM »

I got a degree wheel back in 1980 or so, used it maybe 10 times and loaned it out another dozen or so. So it takes a long time to get your money out of it but it is a cool old stamped Sig Erson one that is etched not painted. I think Kenne Sanfort gave it to me when I worked at Performance Auto Machine on Western.

KMcCullah · « **Reply #25 on:** March 21, 2013, 07:46:46 PM »

With the tranny sorted out in my Powerstroke and spring in the air, I have to get rolling with freshening up the 390. I have to get a new-to-me Subaru tuff truck built also. I'm already registered to race on May 10th and 11th!
I talked to Les Schmader yesterday, and he says my heads are on their way back. Will post pics and numbers when they show up.

I have spent a lot of time with trying to figure out what the remaining dome volume is for my pistons. As near as I can figure, it's about 4.5 cc's. No clue on the crevice volume. Maybe another .5 cc?
So I came up with this half baked guage block idea for measuring the dome volume with the piston at TDC. I'm sure something similar already exists in the engine building world, so don't lite me up too bad.

I milled a 4.100 diameter counterbore into this 1/2 thick chunk of acrylic. Made it about .200 deep. I still need to drill a hole for my burette. The plan is to stick the guage block to something flat and fill it up to find it's volume. Then stick it to the deck with a piston at TDC and fill it up again. Then subtract the difference to find dome volume. I need to decide what to use for fluid since the likelyhood of fluid passing the rings is high.
What say you guys?

jayb · « **Reply #26 on:** March 21, 2013, 10:03:52 PM »

That'll work, make sure you use some grease around the edge of the piston to keep the fluid from leaking past the rings. I've done something similar by putting the piston down a fixed amount in the bore, say 0.25", and using a flat piece of plastic over the bore. Then you can calculate the volume of the .25" thick disc, and subtract the volume of fluid to get the dome volume.

KMcCullah · « **Reply #27 on:** March 28, 2013, 11:10:14 AM »

I finally got my heads back from Les Schmader. Flow came in pretty good. I especially like the flow at low lift.
235/181@.300
285/200@.500
295/203@.600
300/205@.700

He even autographed them and put a serial number on.

I've been working on the old headers too. I was going to build a new set but the old ones will have to do for now. These are the same headers that were on the truck when dad bought it back in 1976 or so.

I slotted the flanges another 1/8 or so.

I also cut the old three hole flanges off and welded some of them new ball and socket deals on.
My wife said last night that she is looking forward to a "romantic" Easter weekend. Little does she know.......

machoneman · « **Reply #28 on:** March 28, 2013, 11:58:50 AM »

How well do the old header flange I.D. look compared to the head's exahust port? Maybe it's the picture but it looks like they don't match up well. Maybe weld on a new flange?

KMcCullah · « **Reply #29 on:** March 28, 2013, 01:54:07 PM »

They don't line up worth poo. Having the flanges slotted a full 1/4" should help. I tried to get away with 1/8" but kept blowing gaskets. I do have a nice set of flanges but I hate the thought of wasting any more time on these things. I don't know what brand these headers are but they are terrible.

KMcCullah · « **Reply #30 on:** April 03, 2013, 05:18:07 PM »

I finally mocked everything together with clay strips on the pistons and the old head gaskets. My exhaust valves have .225 clearance and intakes have .165 clearance approx. The heads are being milled as I type. Going to shave .060 off. This will leave my static CR at 10.76 and DCR at 7.5. I could get the DCR up to 8.11 with Oregon cams grind #175 but it would be even worse to drive on the street, and I don't think I have enough static compression to make it worth while anyhow.
Here's a FYI also... I got a little screwed by using numbers off of Summit's web site. The head gaskets I picked up were advertised as having a 4.23 bore but they actually measured 4.39.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/fms-m-6051-a427/overview/make/ford
What I learned was, physically measure everything before making decisions.

KMcCullah · « **Reply #31 on:** April 09, 2013, 08:01:51 PM »

After a bunch of cussin' and discussin', the heads are finally on. Ended up milling .040 to get my cc's from around 80ish to 72ish. I was figuring on having to mill more. I guess the C4 combustion chamber is a bit shallow. And of course, milled the same amount off the intake side.

The headers went on great. Sort of tricky to hold the header and gasket up at the top of the slots and get it all snugged up. Had to trim just a bit off the inner fenders.

I started in with port matching the Performer RPM manifold and ran into another snag. The bottom of the ports are sitting on the head gasket tabs.

So back to the Bridgeport, where I took about 1/8" off the bottom. All I can say is....Edelbrock didn't skimp on the aluminum. I bet I could have matched a HR gasket on those flanges. Sheesh!

jayb · « **Reply #32 on:** April 09, 2013, 08:16:18 PM »

I've run across the problem at the bottom of the ports too, especially with Victor intakes. Fortunately you have a Bridgeport, and didn't have to use a grinder

My427stang · « **Reply #33 on:** April 10, 2013, 06:49:30 AM »

Hey, hold on there, don't knock the manly feeling you get when you take a 6 inch Dewalt to your new Victor between your feet.

That "am I being stupid" feeling kicks in, but only for the first side

KMcCullah · « **Reply #34 on:** May 07, 2013, 07:04:12 PM »

It lives once again. I've actually had it running for a couple of weeks now. I took a half day off from work today so I could finish up a few loose ends and put my best tune up on. I even went to the airport and got some 100 low lead. I was going to get some VP (C12 I think) but I read that it screws up o2 sensors, so I opted for avgas.
Anyhow, look out bowtie guys. Y'all fixin to have a baaaaaaad weekend.

I shot a little video. If it seems like I'm rushing things a bit, it's because I am. My cheesy camera will only shoot video for 1 minute at a time before turning off. Hope the attachment works......

Well crap! Didnt work. Trying again...

My427stang · « **Reply #35 on:** May 08, 2013, 06:43:37 AM »

Looking good!

lovehamr · « **Reply #36 on:** June 01, 2013, 08:26:22 PM »

Sounds good to!

What idnition system are you running? I thought I saw both ICE and MSD components.

KMcCullah · « **Reply #37 on:** June 03, 2013, 01:56:02 PM »

Thanks guys! Ignition is all MSD. I'm thinking about trying a Duraspark. I'm not sure it would fire the HVCII coil. I think I would have to go to a different coil also. But with a Duraspark and 33" tires I could run in the stock class.
After the dirty trick at the last race race, I'm thinking about getting out of mud racing all together. In between runs somebody turned out my hubs!

I still managed a 4th place out of 19 trucks. The only Ford in the top 10. So no doubt some chebby guy screwed me.
My wife and I went to the local drag races on Saturday night. So I have a few things brewing in my head again. I'm excited, she is not.

lovehamr · « **Reply #38 on:** June 03, 2013, 02:12:32 PM »

She likes the mud does she?

jayb · « **Reply #39 on:** June 03, 2013, 02:57:52 PM »

Quote from: KMcCullah on June 03, 2013, 01:56:02 PM

After the dirty trick at the last race race, I'm thinking about getting out of mud racing all together. In between runs somebody turned out my hubs! I still managed a 4th place out of 19 trucks. The only Ford in the top 10. So no doubt some chebby guy screwed me.
My wife and I went to the local drag races on Saturday night. So I have a few things brewing in my head again. I'm excited, she is not.

That is a dirty trick, alright, and a credit to your effort that you still finished fourth. If it were me I'd make sure to go back there and kick butt at the next race. No reason you can't have a mud truck AND a drag car, after all...

KMcCullah · « **Reply #40 on:** December 25, 2013, 12:47:54 PM »

It's too cold to start it so I guess I'll decorate it. I'm still trying to get a new short block built but life keeps handing me setbacks. I'm hoping 2014 cuts me and all my FE pals a little slack. Merry Christmas guys.

jmcgalaxie · « **Reply #41 on:** December 26, 2013, 03:56:13 AM »

Quote from: KMcCullah on January 05, 2013, 10:51:29 PM

So I made some threaded sleeves with 9/16-12 threads on the O.D. and tapped 3/8-16. The off center holes were plunged thru with a end mill and tapped 9/16-12. Now the holes are back on center!

Very nice an professionnal job, but why don't you considered to use Helicoil instead

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Author Topic: 445 mud motor build (Read 26772 times)

fe66comet

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