New Iron FE Heads

[cjshaker]

Many a people have bolted on out-of-the-box heads only to have problems down the road.

I can't agree with that statement.
You can pull a set of Ed's out of the box, give them a look over to make sure all the parts are where they should be.
Bolt them on. And go racing. If you have a problem with them I'm pretty sure Vic will want to know.
They make an outstanding product for a reasonable cost and have proven to be very reliable.
Edelbrock's intake and head package is pretty hard to beat for cost and durability.
Bolt on a 390 short block and make 400 plus HP with enough cam of course.
This not even my opinion, it has been tested by Barry R.

Edit: found it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpD7fpKWpXw

Howie, Edelbrock has made many small changes over the years. Surely you've seen and heard enough guys from the forums who have pulled/stripped rocker stand threads? True, they've worked out most of these issues, but earlier heads should be reworked before using.

[YoungOne]

Well this post is two days old and all ready there has been close to 400 views and to be fair this is the premier FE website based mainly on performance and yet people came here to look in hope to learn something new. Agreed I am tilting at windmills but as you can see I am not the only one, and let me lay to rest the assumption that I am market probing. I have NO affiliation with any manufacture unless I have built there buildings. So what would it take to be taken seriously 1000 people interested 10,000 or a 100,000 people? CJ to an extent I agree the new stuff has to be gone through and for that so dose the aluminum so that balances out. The benefit of a modern design and lower price is what I think people would appreciate. Scotia if the Edelbrocks are so good why do people I.E Mr. Robotnick since you use him as a reference replace the valves to 2.20 then the guide to run the 11/32  stems and port them, Keith Kraft when you buy his heads he tries to sell the ported version. The answer is that the Aluminum heads DO NEED work to run. Yes you can bolt on the Edelbrokcs out of the box and get 400 hp you can also do the same with a set of ported Iron or a set of CJ heads but that is not what I am trying to get at. My point is World Products, Dart, and RHS all make a decent performance heads in aluminum and in iron, if there was no market for the irons large company's like them would not sell them, and I believe there is an equally large market in our chosen platform. Don't believe me then help me out to fix my thinking. How about some of you guys post a survey on some of the other boards I tried to get on a few but the time i would have to wait to post is quite long lets see how it turns out.   

[Drew Pojedinec]

I always assumed World and Dart made cast iron heads for those that need iron heads for rules based motorsports. 

[machoneman]

I think you are correct Drew as most circle track associations do require cast iron heads, hence even Ford made the N series Windsor head available and 'rules' compliant. Note all the racing associations that have pre-approved it.   

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Ford-Racing-N351-Sportsman-Cast-Iron-Heads,1748.html

[KMcCullah]

How about some of you guys post a survey on some of the other boards I tried to get on a few but the time i would have to wait to post is quite long lets see how it turns out.

Perhaps Jay can convert this thread into one of those cool polls that I've seen him do in the past.

[RJP]

True, the major players in the aftermarket arena offer iron heads but for their major selling engine families such as SBC, BBC, SBF & SBM . Some as a direct replacement head, some to meet rules of the many racing bodies that require "stock" iron head for class racing and to fill a need when OEM casting got used up and that supply has dried up. The FE is more a nitch market that doesn't fall into any category where iron heads are required for any class racing, at least none that I'm aware of...Besides if an FE were to dominate in any class the powers-that-be would make rule changes to handicap the FE. Been done many times in the past. Ask NHRA or NASCAR, for some reason they cannot stand to see a Ford win. On the other side of the coin it would be a major financial loss for someone like Dart or AFR to go to the trouble and expense to invest, design, develop and bring to market a product just to watch the sanctioning bodies outlaw it. The whole project then goes into the crapper.

[ScotiaFE]

That's easy to answer.
We want 1000 HP. 
There is no shortage of iron FE heads if you need some.
There has always been a shortage of High Performance FE stuff. It just was not made in large volumes
and the one real HP head that was "the CJ head" still commands a premium price.
Right now today there is a flood of HP FE stuff that the FE community has never seen before.
Blocks and heads and intakes and cranks a plenty.
It's a miracle.
Hot Rodding FE's will never be a poor mans game though.
That's why they are few and far between.

[YoungOne]

RJP, thank you, that is the information I was looking for, and it stands to reason that making a head the sanctioning body would deem unfair would not make sense, but, Pond make a heads that is super stock legal Edelbrock the same and not to mention Dove. As matter of fact Dove did at one time cast the F5WE in iron but no longer. So then there is still the option, with the proviso that they garner a appropriate designation to say they are with boundary's I.E Stock valve location port dimensions and again why not take the C6 head or CJ head and keep there basic layout with a few refinement such a chamber design I believe they would fit right in.
Gentlemen, This has been more enlightening then I expected in such a short time, most of you stating your opinion as to why it wont happen. All I am asking is give it a chance. If I knew how to get a hold of the guys at Dart, World, or RHS' and I mean some one who will listen and not just just blow me off I would carry this to the end. Machoneman you called me determined. THANK YOU! I can not think of a better compliment and yes I will contact BBM. But before I go for the night (gotta help the boy with his model and the girl wants to play catch) let me ask Jay and Mr. Robotnick one question since as most are saying the FE market is full. Why did you do it? Jay, Edelbrock makes a fine intake as do others. And Mr. Robotnick, Edelbrock makes a fine set of heads don't they and Blue Thunder, Pond, Dove do too. So...... Why?

[jayb]

How about some of you guys post a survey on some of the other boards I tried to get on a few but the time i would have to wait to post is quite long lets see how it turns out.

Perhaps Jay can convert this thread into one of those cool polls that I've seen him do in the past.

Great idea, Kevin!  The Poll is up.  I don't know if I'm in the ballpark on price for some of the options or not; for example, I really don't know what a BBM head costs with good valves and springs, but I can see the Survival heads on ebay and the Edelbrock heads on Summit's web site, so those at least are in the ballpark...

[jayb]

But before I go for the night (gotta help the boy with his model and the girl wants to play catch) let me ask Jay and Mr. Robotnick one question since as most are saying the FE market is full. Why did you do it? Jay, Edelbrock makes a fine intake as do others. And Mr. Robotnick, Edelbrock makes a fine set of heads don't they and Blue Thunder, Pond, Dove do too. So...... Why?

I did the intake adapters to fulfill a perceived need in the market.  I was watching ebay when time after time, the old PSE intake adapters would come up for sale and go for exorbitant amounts of money.  I figured that based on that, if I could bring an equivalent product to market for around $500 I could sell at least 100 of them.  Then, I talked to the pattern and foundry shops and got some quotes, and figured that with the pattern investment I could break even by making 100 and selling them at $469.  Lastly, I wanted to be able to have the capability of casting my own parts, and this was a good, fairly low risk way to go about it.

Now, having gone through it, I think I would think twice about doing it again.  The foundries have been very difficult to work with; they either want to raise the price after the first few castings, or they deliver so slowly that its tough to get the product out.  I'm about to start work with my third foundry on this project, and hopefully they will work out better than the first two, but that remains to be seen.  Along the way I've had to raise the price of the intake adapters, which I really didn't want to do, and it will be a total of around 125 before I finally break even.  Of course, if I can keep selling a few after that it might be a good source of supplemental income, but anybody who is looking at making a living on manufacturing FE parts is going to be eating a lot of Ramen noodles for dinner 

One really priceless thing that has come out of this for me is that if I wanted to do, for example, my own set of aluminum heads, or my own aluminum block, or some other off-the-wall aluminum casting, I'd know exactly what I was in for.  That is really, really helpful when I start thinking about stretching the FE envelope where no man has gone before...

[Barry_R]

I can answer my part of the question...

We were modifying Edelbrock heads every week to reach the power levels desired for our 445 stroker engines.  Most guys building these wanted to see somewhere around 500HP, and that was simply beyond what an "off the shelf" Edelbrock head would accommodate.  I needed an east to install and finish 500-600HP capable head that used factory rocker mountings, factory style and position 428CJ exhaust pattern, factory style 427 MR (Fel-Pro 1247) sized intake ports.

The Blue Thunder head is absolutely a great race head - but with raised exhaust ports, a large cross section intake port, and the need for a dedicated T&D rocker system it was not the "right part" for this application.

I have no experience with the Pond heads, but at the time it appeared they were targeted toward 427 Stock/Super Stock racers, with a large chamber volume and conventional style ports.  Very cool and a needed item - but again not what I required.

Some of the Dove parts might have been up to the task, but availability has always been challenging on those.

Without getting too far into a sales pitch, my project was to get as many modern features into the traditional FE envelope as possible without impacting reverse compatibility with pre-existing intakes, exhausts, and rockers.  The chamber design is literally decades ahead of anything else that was available, with a very strong LS/Yates influence.  The guy that did the original model was highly involved in designing the latest LS heads on the market.  Intake ports were radically improved with only a nominal increase in volume or cross section.  I have them cast under contract at Edelbrock - in part because I was pretty much terrified of the foundry issues Jay has expounded upon.

The BBM parts appear to target the same market as mine do.  They did not exist when I began my development.  I had a very early pair that resembled an Edelbrock part - so I did not consider them to be a viable option at the time.  Since then Rob at Blue Oval partnered with them to redesign the part and it looks much improved.  The parts were developed in parallel - nothing was "taken" or copied from anybody else.  I consider mine to be better - they think their's are better.  Such is the nature of a competitive market.  I have no idea why they chose an FE as their initial US market entry.

On a financial basis I figured my payback based on my own internal usage.  In retrospect the experience mirrors Jay's in that the cost was higher and the challenges greater than anticipated.  The time management and financial stress that it entailed has had me questioning my choices several times.  But I have sold well over a hundred pair of heads, which carries a certain degree of personal pride - not many guys have made their own "part" and gotten it into the marketplace.

I hope that helps...

[machoneman]

The next question becomes: which head?

HR's and TP's would seem to be out as both have limited intakes and are certainly more race oriented, hence a smaller market.

It would seem a MR or LR head then. Even then, there are a myriad of questions on the chamber (near stock or modern), chamber cc's, valve stem sizes, valve head sizes, spark plug size and on and on. Perhaps a mirror of Barry's head or BBM's?

So many questions........

[Joe-JDC]

Having ported all of these heads mentioned, I feel there is still a need for a port that is more oval and raised a small amount, but could still be made to work with available MR style intakes.  It would need a different approach to the short turn, much like a Pro Port Edelbrock that some have ported.  Barry's head if raised another .400" all the way to the valve seat would come very close, but would need a 4.160" combustion chamber before tweaking.  A smaller oval port with a 2.125" intake valve would be a good place to start for a super fast velocity style head.  Also, the exhaust valve could be made smaller if the port was reshaped a little more, and the flow could be made to be comparable to the Yates/CHI style heads.  Joe-JDC

[jayb]

On a financial basis I figured my payback based on my own internal usage.  In retrospect the experience mirrors Jay's in that the cost was higher and the challenges greater than anticipated.  The time management and financial stress that it entailed has had me questioning my choices several times.  But I have sold well over a hundred pair of heads, which carries a certain degree of personal pride - not many guys have made their own "part" and gotten it into the marketplace.

I hope that helps...

Making your own part, and bringing it to market, means a lot to me too; that is one positive I forgot to mention...

[YoungOne]

Barry Thanks for the response. Please don't think I mean any disrespect to any one on this board with my constant questions. The reason I ask is for the same you and Jay brought your products to market. You both perceived a need, Jay's intake is terrific I saw a PSE at Garrett Machine once when I was visiting and asked about it. All he said was "You don't need that." that was the end of the discussion. So Jay I hope you do well. For my self I must admit there is an amount of emotion behind my drive and honestly it is the reason I hope something comes of this. I want that goofy kid that didn't fit to well in school who works all week and scrounges parts on the week end, and the fellow who has a family to feed to have options other then 40 years old castings, or the high cost of aluminum.
Barry I talked to you once about your head and Mr. Patrick about the BBM's they are just to much, if, I and a lot of others had the where with all perhaps we would not be having this discussion, but then again we probably would. Now as a carpenter I don't do to bad, I love what I do, being able to bring something out of the ground and say "I did that" is one of my greatest pleasures its the bringing something to market part that i share wit both of you. That and a well earned passion for this platform, as I stated it is my elation an escape when life gets a little hard a far better addiction then anything else I can think of. And to be honest this discussion only spurs me on. So let me ask you. 'IF' there was a Iron FE casting that with 2.04 valves flowed like the cj with 2.09 and with the some of the mods Joe mentioned but designed not to go into the 300's fully preped coupled with a fast burn chamber was on the market that you as a dealer could sell for under 2k. And lets say 'Joe blue collar wanted a mild rebuild that wouldn't need premium would you offer it? Or would you prefer to take a set of 40+ year old casting fix the broken exhaust bolts mill the exhaust side down, mill the intake side, replace  guides, seats ect. ect.
Finally to all those who have not yet sided with me yet. you say no but 600 plus looking say maybe. And be honest if you were building old blue to pull your drag car or boat, trailer. would you want a set of heads that made 1000s of horsepower or one's that put the power where you needed it? We both know the answer