FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: 427LX on September 24, 2018, 12:17:41 PM
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Found this on the TMP website about these short bowl double pumper carbs for use on FE 427 dual quad intakes.
Anyone use these...looks very interesting!
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This guy used to promote his stuff on the FE facebook page. Drew P asked him some specific questions on how he does certain things (things that were pretty far over my un-carburetor-knowledged head) and he kind of burst his lid for no apparent reason. I was going to get some 3x2 carbs from him, but after seeing that, decided not to. If Drew sees this I'm sure he'll fill in all the technical gaps that I'm not able to.
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Interesting. He uses 660 throttle arms(whole baseplate?). Makes you wonder why not just use 660 carbs to begin with? Granted they don't have power valves, but do his?
(http://www.2040-parts.com/_content/items/images/82/295082/002.jpg)
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Looking at it he uses the 50 cc accel pump on the primary side and maybe just drills a pump shot transfer hole from the front of carb through the center bore webbing to the area of the rear squirtter? Maybe there is a secondary accel pump but can't see that side of carb.
The secondary linkage has an adjustable cam plate but wonder if you can have same progression as a standard DP carb.
But then if both accel pumps work together it's no better than an old 660 Holley where during street use the extra secondary pump shot is puddling over the closed throttles screwing up your A/F ratio.
Was hoping somebody had made a real short bowl double pump carb for use in tight spaces!
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I haven't seen much of that guy, he didn't make many friends on any forums, especially bad run on Speedtalk if I remember correctly.
Of course we weren't smart enough to talk about carbs with him anyway :)
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I know this is off topic but did anyone notice the 360 Holley view on their website? That's an interesting looking setup. I don't understand the reason to have a place to attach the throttle feed on both sides. I think the bowls can be feed from either side also. Unless I'm missing something, there's no way to install it wrong but I know some people that would find a way to make it happen. ::)
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>Makes you wonder why not just use 660 carbs to begin with?
Well, for one they have been discontinued. The eBay prices doubled or tripled over the last little while. If he's tearing down older 660s for the arms, he'd make more $ cleaning and selling the whole carbs IMHO.
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If I could figure out how to get the secondary pump shot from the bowl up to the rear squirter position using metering plate without the secondary metering block,I would have my own 650 double pumpers!
Turning the carbs sideways won't clear the distributor.
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Tom has been around for quite awhile and knows his stuff. Like any salesman he’s going to say his is the best while not giving away and “secrets”. Never used his carbs but wouldn’t be afraid to try.
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I haven't seen much of that guy, he didn't make many friends on any forums, especially bad run on Speedtalk if I remember correctly.
Of course we weren't smart enough to talk about carbs with him anyway :)
LOL! Yeah, I remember Troy from Speedtalk. He managed to piss off just about everybody off with his ego. That and his "acting career". It's hard to get banned from most sites, but he accomplished it. I think he said a lot of intelligent things about carburetors, though. It would be interesting to talk to him for sure. Personally, I'd work with one of the established boutique carb companies first. AED, QFT, etc.
JMO,
paulie
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Troy is Troy.
Mr Brunson mentions me so I will comment. Troy was advertising his goods daily on the fanatics page.
I asked him to keep it in the for sale area. He wouldn’t comply.
He was advertising a Venturi-less carb. I asked how it worked. He said it was a secret. I said the boosters are a Venturi. I deconstructed how I thought his carbs worked and asked if I was right. He exploded, sending me hate mail, telling me he called the attorney general on me, etc. We banned him from the group.
I dunno. He seems like a smart fella, just has some issues dealing with other adults *shrug* Now.... I will say, not naming him exactly, but I often look at a persons online attitude, I consider that before doing business with them. If a person has to be right about everything, well I can only imagine if I had an issue with their product, I’m sure they would tell me it’s my fault, etc.
I’ve never used his carbs, they look pretty, lotsa new parts bolted together. From what I’ve seen, most of his carbs cost 5-6 times what mine do.... so I’ll more than likely never see his carbs on an engine.
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He was advertising a Venturi-less carb. I asked how it worked. He said it was a secret.
Umm, how do you call it a "secret" if you sell them to the public? Assuming he has actually sold one, and it would only take one, then the "secret" is no longer a secret, unless of course nobody is smart enough to figure it out. ::) :P
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Thanks for the info guys! I did talk to him and those carbs,other than have annular boosters and a slightly progressive secondary linkage plate....nothing much different than the old 660's.
When I first saw the picture and noticed position of rear squirtter I thought someone had finally developed a true 4160 style double pumper...not! We have every other conceivable carb out there now days but not that.
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There is a fella on the Fe Fanatics group that took two 4160 primary bowls and fed fuel from both sides of the engine. He welded an extension to the secondary throttle shaft so it would fire an accelerator pump. He runs dual 4160 double pumpers. Was pretty awesome.
He used a double pumper main body. Was pretty awesome, but sure looked like a lot of work.
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On another note 427lx. If you want me to install annulars in a 660, it wouldn’t be hard to do. Any carb guy could do it with ease.
660’s are for sale new, they are just really expensive.
As far as cores being crazy expensive, the last set I bought were $250 for a pair.
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660’s are for sale new, they are just really expensive.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hly-0-4224/overview/
Yikes! I have a really nice restored pair for a current project. Glad I picked them up several years ago in a package deal!
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Pair on the black car cost me $300 on fleabay and came with full Holley kits to rebuild. Still going strong after 7-8 yrs now.
I have another pair, near new, that buddy gave me to play with. Someone messed with them, nothing tragic, but they need full gasket kits.
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They are pretty darn cool when finished:
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1974/44154074385_742757e7ff_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2agKb1z)IMG_0918 (https://flic.kr/p/2agKb1z) by Drew Pojedinec (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154777202@N07/), on Flickr
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With the gap between the secondary shaft roller and the linkage plate...how does the throttle positively close the secondaries other than the spring?
What are the stock air bleed sizes on the 4224?
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The spring is strong, plus airflow closes them as well. The throttle shaft does not go through the center of a plate, it’s top heavy so Air is always trying to close them.
You want calibration info? Lemme dig out my laptop, stby.
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Ok, now to understand what you are dealing with, you have venturi that are smallish, around the size of what you'd find on a 600cfm carb. But the throttle plates are what a 750cfm carb like a 3310 would run. The lowest end of the venturi is enlarged so the throttle plates clear.
List number 4224-s
Type 4160 660CS
Primary
Float Side hung brass
Booster .144 Straight leg
Pump nozzle .025 Center Squirter
Pump type and cam 50cc Cam #336 whitish orange
Idle air bleed .070
High speed bleed .028
Metering block# 5913
Main Jet 76
Power valve none
PVCR na
Emulsion 2 @ .026 each side
Kill Bleed none, emulsion tube, .028 feed
Idle Feed restriction .038
Needle and seat .110
Venturi size
Throttle plate size 172/173
Secondary
Mechanical or Vacuum? Mechanical roller
Spring color na
Diapghram length na
Float Side hung brass
Booster .144 Straight leg
Pump Nozzle same as primary
Pump type and cam
Idle air bleed .031
High speed bleed .021
Metering block/plate# 12
Idle Feed Restriction .031
Jet size .076
Needle and seat .110
You can see the venturi here:
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1926/44345958174_4f7e6c3a68_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ayGCnL)IMG_0835 (https://flic.kr/p/2ayGCnL) by Drew Pojedinec (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154777202@N07/), on Flickr
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1979/30129323797_185e3b7297_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/MUqEgX)IMG_0876 (https://flic.kr/p/MUqEgX) by Drew Pojedinec (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154777202@N07/), on Flickr
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Drew.. Have you ever put a set of 850 baseplates on 660's? Seemed to be a fairly common modification years ago and when I called Holley they told me it was impossible. Well, I had a local guy do mine. It wasn't cheap and I don't think I gained anything for the money. May just have been the motor didn't need more carb. Comments from others welcome.
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No I haven’t.
Seems that the restriction is at the entry to the Venturi, not the exit.
I think if more air was needed, it’d make sense to look there.
Of course there is an 850cs. So that is a possibility. They are fairly rare, but I’ve seen sets around for a reasonable amount.
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https://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-Holley-4223-S-850-CFM-Carburetor-Center-Squirt-Date-9-7-5-Camaro-Corvette/302869320125?hash=item46846b11bd:g:zK0AAOSwtItbY1LL:sc:FedExHomeDelivery!92868!US!-1
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Tom has been around for quite awhile and knows his stuff. Like any salesman he’s going to say his is the best while not giving away and “secrets”. Never used his carbs but wouldn’t be afraid to try.
Ditto. Assuming someone doesn’t know that he knows what he is doing, based on an abrasive, slightly sociopathic personality is a common, and sometimes fatal mistake.... ;) some of the sharpest people I have met in this business are not people I would want to live next door to on a bet. Doesn’t mean they don’t know EXACTLY what the hell they are doing. My original mentor would fall into this category.
But I agree, Troy is ummmm, “difficult”.
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Here is one of my 600 cfm 1850 carb bodies with my 15 degree cut for the 750 base plate...basically a 650 now. They have been running really well with the vac. secondaries.
I've got something a bit different in the works and should know by Sunday if it works as planned!
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Ok, now to understand what you are dealing with, you have venturi that are smallish, around the size of what you'd find on a 600cfm carb. But the throttle plates are what a 750cfm carb like a 3310 would run. The lowest end of the venturi is enlarged so the throttle plates clear.
List number 4224-s
Type 4160 660CS
Primary
Float Side hung brass
Booster .144 Straight leg
Pump nozzle .025 Center Squirter
Pump type and cam 50cc Cam #336 whitish orange
Idle air bleed .070
High speed bleed .028
Metering block# 5913
Main Jet 76
Power valve none
PVCR na
Emulsion 2 @ .026 each side
Kill Bleed none, emulsion tube, .028 feed
Idle Feed restriction .038
Needle and seat .110
Venturi size
Throttle plate size 172/173
Secondary
Mechanical or Vacuum? Mechanical roller
Spring color na
Diapghram length na
Float Side hung brass
Booster .144 Straight leg
Pump Nozzle same as primary
Pump type and cam
Idle air bleed .031
High speed bleed .021
Metering block/plate# 12
Idle Feed Restriction .031
Jet size .076
Needle and seat .110
You can see the venturi here:
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1926/44345958174_4f7e6c3a68_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ayGCnL)IMG_0835 (https://flic.kr/p/2ayGCnL) by Drew Pojedinec (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154777202@N07/), on Flickr
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1979/30129323797_185e3b7297_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/MUqEgX)IMG_0876 (https://flic.kr/p/MUqEgX) by Drew Pojedinec (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154777202@N07/), on Flickr
Thanks for posting the 660 specs!
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The 660 carbs,like the model 1850 600, share same 1 1/4 and 1 5/16 venturi sizes. Wonder why Holley didn't open up the primary venturi to 1 5/16 for a bit more flow?