Author Topic: Flywheel bolts dug into block...how screwed am I?  (Read 22380 times)

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drdano

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Flywheel bolts dug into block...how screwed am I?
« on: July 25, 2012, 10:24:23 PM »
Pulled my bellhousing tonight and noticed gritty metal dust behind the block plate.  Turns out the ARP flywheel bolts dug into my block and rear main cap 1/16"-1/8".   >:( 

Would this weaken the block or rear main cap? 

I have to pull the pan and windage tray anyway to change the crushed pan, can I measure the thrust bearing clearance with the crank/rods in place to make sure it wasn't wiped out by this?

My427stang

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Re: Flywheel bolts dug into block...how screwed am I?
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2012, 05:37:41 AM »
It wont weaken the block significantly, but you may have worn front side of the thrust bearing a bit.

Check and see how much thrust movement you have, it probably opened up but it may not even be an issue.  Did the oil in the motor have any bearing material in it?
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

jayb

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Re: Flywheel bolts dug into block...how screwed am I?
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2012, 07:34:12 AM »
+1 on those comments; as long as you have the pan off, I'd pull the #3 main and take a look.  If its worn, check the thrust surfaces on the crank, and if they are not all beat up, just pop a new bearing in there and you will probably be fine.

I'm actually somewhat surprised that the bolts would wear that deep of a groove in the block and rear main cap.  When I've stuck bolts that are too long in the crank, they bottom against the block/cap and lock the crank up so it won't move.  I'm wondering how those grooves could have gotten so deep?  Endplay on the crank should be in the .010" range, and I can't imagine that there was 1/16" interference to start with and the starter would even crank the engine.  Hmmmm...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

drdano

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Re: Flywheel bolts dug into block...how screwed am I?
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2012, 08:13:26 AM »
Thanks for the info guys.  I'm puzzled how the motor turned over as well.  I recall that when I was moving the motor over by hand with the flywheel attached, it was stiff but I thought this was just because it had the spark plugs in and was a new motor.  My gear reduction starter didn't ever hang up or do anything weird.

I haven't opened the oil filter up yet, the motor is basically brand new.  I'll try to get my hands on a filter cutter locally (yea right) and see what is in there.

In addition to the smashed oil pan, the other reason for pulling everything behind the motor is because my TKO600 wont go into any gear.  On the floor it shifts easily by hand, mated up and with a .060" air gap in the clutch it just grinds and wont go in...so something isn't right in the motor/clutch/trans mate-up.  I thought perhaps I had the clutch disc in backwards, but that isn't the case.  The witness marks on the input shaft of the trans and the pilot bushing show it is engaging where it should, so that shouldn't be hung up.  I'll pop the pilot bushing out of the crank and try it on the input shaft alone.  My theory at this point is the pilot bushing is too snug causing the the crank to push into the block when the trans is mated up and consequently the flywheel bolts to contact the block and rear main cap.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 08:15:34 AM by drdano »

plovett

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Re: Flywheel bolts dug into block...how screwed am I?
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2012, 09:08:51 AM »
My "72cc" Edelbrocks are actually 79cc.  The shop measured them.   Later when I had my heads off I measured them and also came up with 79 cc.

paulie

drdano

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Re: Flywheel bolts dug into block...how screwed am I?
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2012, 10:06:35 AM »
Moral is to double check everything, right? 

drdano

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The Necropsy, or how my TKO600 killed my 428
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2012, 02:40:19 PM »
I did a necropsy on the motor today and it just got worse the further I got into it. 

First, there was nothing in the oil filter out of the ordinary.  I cut it open with a sharp chisel since I have no filter cutter.  Some copper shimmer color to the oil in it, but nothing big enough you could physically see.  I was feeling pretty confident there.

...until I pulled the pan off.  Or tried I should say.  I used a 1/4" bead of Right Stuff on each side of the windage tray when I put it on with the pan and it made getting the pan off an hour long ordeal and the pan rail on it is definitely toast.  This pan is crushed from the car falling off the jack stands anyway, but had i tried to reuse it I'd be working with a hammer and dolly for a while to get everything back straight.  In the future I'll use two smaller beads or a single 1/8" bead instead, this just seemed like overkill to get everything apart.

On the inside of the pan below the thrust bearing there was a stripe of ferrous metal, thin shavings of copper, etc.   :-[  Things only got worse from here.

Here is the view of the thrust bearing from above.  What really puzzled me here was that the thrust bearing was shoved forward, not backward.  The bolts from the flywheel that were digging into the rear main cap would have caused the crank to move aft, not forward. 
 

I did a quick thrust endplay check with a short prybar and a dial indicator and it showed .042".  My '62 Galaxie shop manual shows .004-.008" with replacement spec at .012"

Pulling the #3 main cap to inspect the carnage...ugh.  Bearing is halfway ground off.


Rear thrust face of #3 crank journal is toast, there is a heavy ridge here you can catch a fingernail on.  I'll need to research some more on the max distance allowed between the crank #3 main bearing journal faces here, but I imagine this crank is toast and will need re-welded or just tossed.  Totally sucks because this was a very nice 428 crank that I had custom neutral balanced for this motor.


Crank journal is damaged from the bearing particles, you can catch a fingernail on the damage here.  This probably wont micro polish out, but it makes no difference since the thrust faces are so bad.


Then things got worse.  I started looking into the block to get some views of the cam lobes.  Everyone is all sketched out about failing cam lobes, so I figured it was worth a look.  This is a Comp custom hydraulic roller from Brent.  All the lobes I could see looked a-ok, no discoloring, scuffing or blueing.  Then I started looking into the cylinder bores.

Scuffing in the cylinder walls...all of them :'(  The scuffs look as deep as the final honing finish.  These are speed pro forged semi-flat top slugs.


I don't know the reason for this and would like some forum members opinions here.  The thrust bearing destruction would have puked the debris out of the bearing into the pan, where it was seen.  Is it possible for the thrust bearing debris to make it back into the crank and up the rods expelled out oil lands and into the walls between the piston face and wall?  This motor always had good oil pressure and never overheated.

Back to the cause of the crank getting shoved forward in the block, I did mockups of the transmission, bellhousing and motor prior to tearing into the bottom end.  The input shaft of the transmission engaged beautifully into the pilot bearing, no binding here.  With everything bolted up, minus the clutch assembly, I could reach in through the clutch fork window and easily spin the input shaft.  A-OK here, so the input shaft can't be buried into the rear of the crank.  I marked the input shaft at where the rear face of the pilot was riding so I could see if it was engaging too. 

Looks kinda shallow for where the pilot should be riding...


Looking closer at the input shaft, I think the cause of this whole nightmare is the witness marks on the top spline in the photo.  They look super shallow as well.  When I mocked the clutch disc up on the input shaft on the witness mark, it was only halfway engaged on the splines of the disc at best.  I took an hour and took a ton of measurements off the rear of the block, the rear crank, the transmission to verify that this was actually where that clutch disc was engaging and it all adds up.  This in itself would have been a disaster on the first clutch dump probably shearing the splines right out of the clutch disc or input shaft.  However, when I looked at the corresponding inside of the clutch disc the witness marks were not there.  I had the trans in and out of the car a dozen times before I fired the motor adjusting small things in the crossmember and z-bar assembly.  These witness marks on the input shaft are likely from when the old 390 and old clutch were still in front of the transmission, making me wonder if the trans always engaged shallow into the clutch, even with the old motor.  With only a 1/4" of input shaft splines into the clutch disc, it would have been super easy to not have the splines actually engaged when I thought they were and then tightened the trans up to the bellhousing.  It probably bound up the last time I installed the trans to the motor not noticing since it was the last 1/4".  This would have put extreme pressure on the rear of the crank.  This also would explain why no matter what I did the clutch would not disengage and the transmission would not shift into any gear or reverse.

I think this explains what happen, unless others have opinions as well, I'm all ears.  I'm pretty heartbroken, even more so  knowing it is my fault despite how careful I try to be with everything.  The only lingering question I have is the scuffing of the cylinder walls unless everyone thinks that occurred due to the failed thrust bearing.

My427stang

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Re: Flywheel bolts dug into block...how screwed am I?
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2012, 03:08:57 PM »
Don't give up yet

King makes an oversized thrust flange, you quite possibly can do a quick clean up of the crank, hone the cylinders and drive off.

http://www.king-bearings.com/cat/PanelView.aspx?mfamily=1238

.010-.030 oversized flanges will probably bring it back after machining, and on top of that you can go pretty loose on the thrust dimensions and still get away with it.  Basically, if nothing hits, there isn't a problem with too much thrust.

Better go though the whole thing to find any more little pieces though.
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

drdano

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Re: Flywheel bolts dug into block...how screwed am I?
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2012, 03:25:07 PM »
Had no idea such a bearing existed, thanks for posting that.   Yes, the entire motor has to be torn down for sure.

jayb

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Re: Flywheel bolts dug into block...how screwed am I?
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2012, 05:39:44 PM »
I don't think the scuffing you are seeing on the cylinder walls is a big deal.  All engines will look like that after they've run for a while, especially strokers with short skirt pistons, but even stock motors.  You get some particulates in the oil and they leave those marks in the cylinder wall, but it probably doesn't hurt anything.  As long as you have to take it apart, put a quick hone job on it and a new set of rings, and run it.

On the clutch issue, you definitely have a problem to resolve.  I would agree with your analysis that you probably did not get good engagement of the splines with the clutch disc the last time you had the trans out, and the pressure against the crank from installing the transmission forced the crank forward, causing the issue with the bolts hitting the back of the block and the thrust bearing wear.  But you need a lot more engagement of the clutch disc splines into the transmission than what you've got.  What it looks like to me is that you may have the wrong bellhousing on the engine.  That pilot shaft on the end of the input shaft looks long to me, compared to most FE pilot shafts.  When I've had a pilot shaft that long that needs to go into an FE it bottoms against the crank, and I've had to cut them off shorter to make them work.  If your transmission was 1/2" farther forward towards the block, you would have adequate engagement of the clutch disc splines but you would probably bottom the pilot shaft in the crank.  If I recall correctly, FE truck bellhousings are longer than FE passenger car bellhousings; do you have a truck bellhousing on this vehicle?  Or is it a truck and I've missed that?  How about the trans, is it a small block or 351C transmission?  I'm just throwing this out there; I actually have limited experience with this situation...

I think you can recover from this without a major investment, but you for sure need to get to the bottom of the clutch disc spline engagement issue - Jay
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

drdano

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Re: Flywheel bolts dug into block...how screwed am I?
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2012, 07:32:46 PM »
Ok, so maybe the scuffs are not as bad as I thought.  They don't look super deep, but until I get everything out I wont know for sure and they are hard to see with the rods in the way.  Being forged pistons, should I expect them to not be scuffed?

I think the clutch issue is solved, I need the other Quicktime Bellhousing.  The transmission is a TKO600, #5008 with a short input shaft.  I had originally used the corresponding short input Quicktime bellhousing on my old 390, but the input shaft hit the bottom of the crank pilot hole before the transmission was fully seated into the back of the bell.  I called and talked to Ross at QT (this was before they were bought by Lakewood) and he and I did a LOT of measurements against my 390 and his original engineering drawings and concluded my 390 didn't quite mesh with what they designed the bells to work with regards to the pilot hole depth.  Ross exchanged my bell with the other one used on transmissions with normal input shaft lengths and everything worked fine on that motor.

But that was that motor, and this a different setup, so I think things changed a little bit again.  I've put a post on this board and over on the other FE forum to see if someone will swap me back for a short bell and I think that will solve the issue....If no bites I'll just by the short bell and keep this as a spare for a future project.  I measure more than a half inch of additional pilot depth in the crank and have more than a half inch available on the input shaft, so there shouldn't be any binding issue either at the splines or at the bottom of the pilot hole.  Half inch also means no new driveshaft needs to be cut and minor adjustment of my shifter boot tower.   Outside of the expense of the bellhousing, nothing further should need done with the trans or clutch.

I'm going to take another good look at the clutch disc tonight and see if on the trans side of the center splined area I can see where it hung up, it's got to be at least a little chewed up somewhere in there from this I would think.

drdano

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Re: Flywheel bolts dug into block...how screwed am I?
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2012, 08:30:50 AM »
Looking at the clutch disc last night I can see where it hung up.  There are witness marks in the splined areas about a 1/4" deep, likely where it actually engaged correctly at least once.  However, on the very end of the splines on the nose of each one it is impacted in slightly, this must have been where the nose of the input shaft splines perfectly mated up from the last time the transmission was stabbed in. 

Incredible set of circumstances and lots of lessons learned for sure.

jayb

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Re: Flywheel bolts dug into block...how screwed am I?
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2012, 09:32:21 AM »
Bad luck, no doubt about it.  However, at least it has enabled you to uncover a significant problem.  Probably better to find out now than when you dropped the clutch at 5000 RPM LOL!
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

drdano

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Re: Flywheel bolts dug into block...how screwed am I?
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2012, 10:25:24 AM »
That is exactly what I was thinking too.  The first hard clutch dump on the street or at the track and that would have been a big boom and a big headache potentially a long way away from home.  Definitely a silver lining to whole mess. 

Cyclone03

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Re: Flywheel bolts dug into block...how screwed am I?
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2012, 11:14:40 AM »
I may have some input...
I have a TKO 600,long input. Matching Quick Time bell and a (SCAT)? cranked stroker from Barry.

When the trans was installed it too would lock up.
I don't know if the pilot seat area was not machined deep enough,the crank flange too far back or some other problem with tallerence stack up.

The spline area of the input shaft would bottom onto the pilot bearing/bushing.

A Pilot BEARING for an FE was the worst, a Pilot BUSHING also would not work.
The interference seemed to be about -.1-.2".

Now here the interesting fix I used.
If your using a SCAT crank,other aftermarket cranks may be the same.
In the pilot area machined in the end of the crank it is machined in steps,the outer where a pilot Bear./Bush would normally seat,a second area below then a deeper area with a triangle/cone look.
I found the second machined area below the pilot area was a perfect fit for a 5.0 Mustang stock roller pilot BEARING,that bearing even has a flange that seats on the (normal) pilot bush.  seat area and holds the 5.0 Bear.  proud about .2". When the trans was mocked into place the grease on the bearing left a mark stopping about .2" from the trans spline and the trans now rotated freely.

It's held to gether for 9000 miles so it must be working.

Now I see you are short on engagement and are using a short input,did the short bell/short input bind? Maybe you had the same problem I did with the crank?
« Last Edit: August 12, 2012, 11:18:42 AM by Cyclone03 »
Lance H

drdano

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Re: Flywheel bolts dug into block...how screwed am I?
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2012, 04:43:54 PM »
I didn't have my input splines hit the pilot bushing like you did, the input shaft hit the bottom of the crank pilot hole when I tried with the shorter bellhousing.  But, that was on the old motor, the block and crank are different on this one and I've now learned a good lesson to recheck E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G.   ;)

I got the motor torn down to a shortblock.  I'm not going to pull the cam or the piston assemblies.  I'll have the machine shop do that and when they are done reassemble the short block for me.  I did find some interesting things in the process.  Top of the motor looks clean, no chunks of any bearing material found anywhere.

Roller Rocker adjusters and Pushrods
The adjusters on my Comp Cam roller rockers look..not so great.  There are two that were bad enough that when rotating the pushrod around it had a few stiff spots in it.  The cup of the corresponding pushrods looks like it wasn't rotating and was starting to cut a trough.  Looking at the other adjuster balls...I'm not impressed at all with the quality here.  These should be perfectly round and it looks like when they are made they just cut off the bottoms of them and don't de-burr the edge that is created there.  I think that edge caused the problems here.  I'll order new adjusters for all of the rockers and a few new pushrods from Smith Brothers to replace the ones that look suspect.  Looks like a problem caught early here, which is good.  If anyone has a recommendation for better adjuster screws that work better, please let me know.

Valve tips
The valve tips have a wear pattern in them already after only 2hrs of total run time and no rpms above 2500.  The wear pattern is centered over the tip, which indicates proper pushrod length, however I can barely catch my nail on the edges of the wear pattern.  This doesn't seem right.  Should the wear be so deep so fast?


Cylinders
This is the scuffing I was seeing from the bottom end.  None of it is deep enough to catch a nail on, looks about as deep as the honing.  I didn't pull the pistons, so I don't know what the rings or skirts looks like, but hopefully it is all reusable with just a honing job.

jayb

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Re: Flywheel bolts dug into block...how screwed am I?
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2012, 06:50:16 PM »
The marks on the cylinder wall look normal, but what is that squarish discoloration shown in the photo?  Is that just an artifact of the photo, or is the bore really discolored there?  Looks kind of strange...

The wear on the valve tips is a concern; that indicates that the tips were not hardened properly when they were manufactured.  Especially after only a couple hours, you should never see that.  The solution is to put lash caps on the valve stems (easy and pretty cheap) or replace the valves (not easy or cheap).

I've been told that Comp's FE roller rockers are manufactured by Dove.  Quality can be a concern with any Dove products, although I can't say I've ever had any problems with my Comp rocker arms (I have one set).  I'd replace the adjusters if the balls don't look good, and run 'em.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

drdano

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Re: Flywheel bolts dug into block...how screwed am I?
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2012, 09:08:14 PM »
The square discoloration is where I got a nice plop of coolant when I pulled the head off.  I wiped the cylinder right there.  None of the bores have anything weird or discolored, but they do all have the same vertical marks.  We'll call those normal.

If the overall height of the lash cap is low enough, I might be able to get away with them.  I'm using +.050 locks right now to get the spring installed height where it needs to be.  I've got a set of -.100" pushrods I can use as well if need be.

"manufactured by Dove"...great.  Yea, I've heard of the hit-n-miss quality and that is definitely apparent with these rockers.  I've already stripped out several of the allen holes in the adjusters just from setting them up.  Not a top shelf quality part for sure.  On a few of the valve tips I noticed that the wear pattern didn't extend all the way across the tip face, so either the roller isn't square or valve tip isn't.  What would be the next step up quality wise from these roller rockers?  Harland Sharp?

hotrodfeguy

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Re: Flywheel bolts dug into block...how screwed am I?
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2012, 08:29:30 AM »
DR Brown has you spot on

Barry_R

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Re: Flywheel bolts dug into block...how screwed am I?
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2012, 07:31:18 PM »
Any idea who made the valves?  Were the tips ground to equalize heights during assembly?  I ask because virtually all stainless valves require a harened tip be added - usually a wafer of hardenable steel friction welded to the top of the stem.  A few higher end valves - notably Ferrea - can induction harden the tips, since stainless is normally not very conducive to normal hardening.

drdano

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Re: Flywheel bolts dug into block...how screwed am I?
« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2012, 07:51:33 PM »
I don't have a clue on the valve manufacturer.  All of the valve tips were level, yes.  They are not stamped FoMoCo like factory ones I've seen.  I'll snap a few photos, maybe you can tell who made them. 

jayb

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Re: Flywheel bolts dug into block...how screwed am I?
« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2012, 09:00:42 PM »
A good friend of mine who builds a lot of engines for his customers has had some trouble with Harlan Sharp stuff recently, but by most accounts they have a good rocker arm.  You might also consider Precision Oil Pumps for rockers, although you would then also need ball-ball pushrods to work with them.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

drdano

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Re: Flywheel bolts dug into block...how screwed am I?
« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2012, 12:00:47 PM »
The machinist called this morning with the damage, some better than expected, some worse.  The crank thrust surfaces are way too trashed to clean up and use an oversized thrust surface bearing, so the crank is getting welded up to fix that.  Apparently the #3 main also go so hot it heat distorted .003" and so the block will also need a fresh align hone.  That was unexpected, but nice they checked it.  This also means I will probably get to play musical timing chains again to try to get one that will not have a ton of slop in it after the align hone. 

On the bright side, there was no other internal damage and no bearing chips managed to destroy anything else.  The block is getting a good scrubbing and all the oil galleries are being cleaned out as well.  Also there was no damage to any other bearing surfaces, so that tells me the chunks of bearing didn't make it past the oil filter.  They also said the cylinders look a-ok and I could re-use my rings even. 

I'm also ordering up today a different input shaft for my TKO600.  I have the 5008 short shaft installed in it now, and will go back to the regular 26 spline Ford style shaft.  That should fix the shallow pilot and clutch engagement issues and hopefully prevent this from ever happening again.  I may post some photos on how to swap out the input shaft as I can't find any tutorital online on how to do it.

Cyclone03

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Re: Flywheel bolts dug into block...how screwed am I?
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2012, 08:23:47 PM »
Make sure the standard length input does not bottom the splines to the pilot bearing.
Lance H

My427stang

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Re: Flywheel bolts dug into block...how screwed am I?
« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2012, 08:42:21 PM »
Dano,
Are you using a truck bellhousing?  I just can't see any other way that the input could end up so short. 

The truck bell uses an input length equal to the SBF, and may explain why yours didnt have the reach it needed
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

drdano

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Re: Flywheel bolts dug into block...how screwed am I?
« Reply #25 on: August 16, 2012, 11:31:39 PM »
I'm using the standard depth Quicktime TKO600/T5 bellhousing, even though the TKO500 has a short shaft on it.  I started with the short version of the bell on my old 390 but it caused the input shaft to bottom out in the crank.  Oddly the combo worked a-ok on the 390, but there must be a minor difference in the crank flywheel mounting face vs block bellhousing mounting face distance between the old 390 and new 428.  The long input shaft should be 1/2" longer than I have now and resolve the issue.  If the splines bottom out in the pilot bearing, but the input doesn't, I'll take Cyclones advice and have the pilot machined to fit.  I really think everything should work, I've spent way too much time measuring and remeasuring it all.   ;)

lovehamr

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Re: Flywheel bolts dug into block...how screwed am I?
« Reply #26 on: August 17, 2012, 09:20:50 AM »
I had the same issue, took a few pics and posted what I found on club cobra.  I'll try to post what I had and did.

This first pic is through the starter opening in the BH and you can see that the splined part of the input shaft is up against the pilot bearing.



The next image is looking at the gap between the trans and the bellhousing with the input shaft grounded as in the first pic.



As you can see there isn't much of a gap there and the PB isn't sticking very far out of the back of the crank.  And I'm not using a spacer.  I think I'm just going to have about .250" machined from the front of the spline on the input.  The disc will still have plenty of room and the trans will then seat in the BH without any pressure on the crank.

And this is what I did:

Just a follow up for everyone who may be interested.  Here is the input shaft with about .250" machined away.



Steve

Hope that helps.

drdano

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Re: Flywheel bolts dug into block...how screwed am I?
« Reply #27 on: August 17, 2012, 10:43:21 AM »
Great photos and explaination.  I didn't have my splines hit the pilot bushing on the old 390, but the input shaft hit the bottom of the crank pilot hole before the trans was snugged all the way to the bellhousing just like in the photo.  This was odd because it was with the "correct" short QT bellhousing and why I swapped to the deeper bell.

You really could have got away with taking 1/8" off of the input shaft and still been ok from the looks of the photos. 

Did you remove the input shaft yourself?  Do you have any good steps for how to do that?  Another forum member had a good idea of placing the trans supported on the front in a vertical position so you could unbolt the retainer from the front and gently slide it out.

Cyclone03

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Re: Flywheel bolts dug into block...how screwed am I?
« Reply #28 on: August 17, 2012, 09:00:55 PM »
lovehamr that is exactly the pronlem I had.

In your spline to bearing shot is that a bearing or bushing?

Are you running an after market crank as I am?

Like I said on my crank I could use a 5.0 pilot bearing in a deeper recess in my crank.

drdano even with the correct depth bell the pilot may need to be shortened,Ford did this on the big block top loader 4 speeds.
Lance H

lovehamr

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Re: Flywheel bolts dug into block...how screwed am I?
« Reply #29 on: August 18, 2012, 09:31:28 PM »
lovehamr that is exactly the pronlem I had.

In your spline to bearing shot is that a bearing or bushing?

Bearing

Are you running an after market crank as I am?

Yup, Scat.

lovehamr

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Re: Flywheel bolts dug into block...how screwed am I?
« Reply #30 on: August 18, 2012, 10:00:55 PM »
Did you remove the input shaft yourself?  Do you have any good steps for how to do that?  Another forum member had a good idea of placing the trans supported on the front in a vertical position so you could unbolt the retainer from the front and gently slide it out.

Dan, I did mine in the vertical position held by my huge chinese bench vise.  As far as I'm concerned vertical is the only way to do it because there is a set of roller bearings at the back of the input shaft.  If the input shaft is removed while the trans is sitting horizontal then there is a decent chance that you'll drop a bearing or 2 down in the trans.  No fun.  As it was for me, I had to use light grease to hold the bearing together while I re-installed the input shaft.  That’s the only thing that I found that might trip someone up, hope it helps.

Steve

drdano

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Re: Flywheel bolts dug into block...how screwed am I?
« Reply #31 on: August 19, 2012, 09:01:47 AM »
I ordered a shim stack along with the different input shaft.  How many tries did it take before you got the end play in spec?

lovehamr

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Re: Flywheel bolts dug into block...how screwed am I?
« Reply #32 on: August 19, 2012, 03:05:07 PM »
I really didn't change anything in the tans, all I did was have the splines machined back a little.  When I put it back together I just put everything back where it was before and didn't even check endplay.  So I'm afraid I'm not much help there.

drdano

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Re: Flywheel bolts dug into block...how screwed am I?
« Reply #33 on: October 10, 2012, 09:29:40 AM »
An update of sorts on this issue.  For the transmission I ended up swapping to a long-input shaft on the TKO600.  This in itself was a big dabacle.  I found the short shaft had a mangled bearing cage on it from when it was originally swapped from a long to a short shaft, looked like someone used a clamshell on the cage to press it off and then just pressed it on the short shaft.  I notified the shop about the issue as a friendly heads-up and in the end the shop lost all my future business over how they dealt with the situation and how they treated me.  Especially when I never asked for a replacement, just wanted "gee, that sucks" apology and nothing more.

I digress.  So the long-input shaft was installed.  I installed a new bearing on the input shaft, had a shim kit and set the shaft end-play to the nothing-.005" spec in the TKO manual I have.  I ended up using an engine hoist and a chain to support the trans with the shaft straight up, worked well.  There are 17 roller bearings that live in the back of the shaft that need to go back in place, but greasing them up was more than enough to get them to stick there for final assembly.

Mocking everything back up again showed I was going to be too deep into the pilot bearing with the input shaft.  The splines on the input would be below the depth of the pilot face by around 1/16" since the pilot extends beyond the face of the crank by around 1/32" on my motor.  Taking the advice of a forum member here, I cut a 3/16" step in the pilot bearing, reduced the stepped diameter to 1.25" so it would be a snug fit into the next step in the 428 1U crank.  This allowed clearance for the splines on the input shaft as well as having the original width of the pilot for the input to ride on, rather than just cutting the pilot down thinner.



One thing I noticed when installing the clutch and everything in place is that I know I have much better clutch spline engagement.  The spline engagement starts around 1.5" from the trans fully seated.  The pilot starts to engage at .75" or so from seated and is A FREAKING NIGHTMARE to get that last push into place.  Part of this nightmare I think is because the crank centerline moved .0025 up in relation to the trans due to the block being re-align honed.  I reverified the crank centerline to bellhousing alignment and it was .0025-.003 high, which is still in the "less than .005" allowment for the TKO600 to shift reasonably well and not chew up the pilot to bad or cause bad high rpm shifting.  The second problem I noticed is that the plastic alignment tool I had was actually allowing the clutch disc to fall down slightly while the pressure plate was torqued down.  I again used a forum members advice and used my now spare short shaft as an alignment tool and supported it slightly with a small bungee cord to keep it as level as possible to the crank centerline while getting the pressure plate in place.  This made the trans engagement much easier, but it's still a bear getting that last 1/2" to slide into place.  I have a feeling with some road time this will get easier as the brand new pilot wears slightly.

Lastly, I ordered up a different set of ARP flywheel bolts that are a smidge shorter than the ones listed for the FE's.  These are 240-2801 that are 7/16" x .875 instead of 1.00".  With the flywheel in place the bolts are flush with the front face of the crank when fully torqued, so that is much better than having bolts hanging out there in the wind like last time.   :)

I'm feeling a lot better about the clutch and trans now and have learned a HUGE amount with this whole ordeal.  Nobody learns this stuff the easy way (unless they read this post and remember it I suppose), but that is part of what makes this fun I guess.

My427stang

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Re: Flywheel bolts dug into block...how screwed am I?
« Reply #34 on: October 11, 2012, 07:16:30 AM »
Good stuff, should have all your issues fixed now!

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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

JimNolan

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Re: Flywheel bolts dug into block...how screwed am I?
« Reply #35 on: October 12, 2012, 10:16:07 PM »
I'm using the standard depth Quicktime TKO600/T5 bellhousing, even though the TKO500 has a short shaft on it.  I started with the short version of the bell on my old 390 but it caused the input shaft to bottom out in the crank.  Oddly the combo worked a-ok on the 390, but there must be a minor difference in the crank flywheel mounting face vs block bellhousing mounting face distance between the old 390 and new 428.  The long input shaft should be 1/2" longer than I have now and resolve the issue.  If the splines bottom out in the pilot bearing, but the input doesn't, I'll take Cyclones advice and have the pilot machined to fit.  I really think everything should work, I've spent way too much time measuring and remeasuring it all.   ;)

drdano,
    Please give me some advice here. I've got the Lakewood TKO 15210 bell housing with the TKO 600 W/ short FE input shaft, best I remember it was 26 spline. My pilot bearing that went into the 390 crank was made by Mike Forte in Farmington, MA. It was the roller bearing type that he made himself ( I've got a spare ). DOES THIS 428 SCAT 9000 428 CRANK I'M GETTING READY TO BUY AND INSTALL WITH MY SETUP NOW HAVE TO BE REMACHINED TO FIT MY BELL HOUSING AND TREMEC TKO 600 TRANSMISSION.  Thanks drdano