T&D Rockers on Edelbrocks

[FirstEliminator]

   Hey guys,

     I am putting together a 445 stroker for a friend. I am too the point of having the head on the block and getting ready to measure pushrod length.  Today I was reading Barry's FE book and it mentioned about machining required to put T&D rockers on Edelbrock heads. In the T&D instructions it mentioned about stud length over cylinders 3 and 6.  So, I am not really sure what to look for here...Any advice?

   thanks,
    Mark

[sixty9cobra]

Thats where the oil gallery is they require longer studs there.

[FirstEliminator]

    Thanks for the quick reply. When I get into the shop tomorrow I will check that out. Is there any paper I am missing from the T&D rockers?

[Barry_R]

The T&D street rockers require no machining at all.  They are the ones that have the special stud in the oiling location, and use a single long shaft similar to stock FE.

The T&D RACE rockers have paired rockers on four individual short shafts per head - those are the system that requires machining the cylinder head.

[FirstEliminator]

     The studs were in place on the rocker assemblies as they came out of the box and I didn't seperate them for comparison. I dropped the whole rocker assembly on with the studs still in place and threaded in the studs hand tight, they all came down to the same level on top. I'm curious and also don't want to leave anything unchecked, so I will be pulling to studs today to see the difference.  Then the next step is push rods. Do these T&D street rockers get oiling through the lifters and push rods or through the rocker shafts?   
     Sorry if I sound dumb about this. It's been a long while since I've put together an engine other than a stocker.


    thanks,
       Mark

[jayb]

I'm pretty sure that the T&D street rockers oil through the shafts just like a standard FE.  The race rockers require oiling through the pushrods.  You should see a difference in length for the #3 and #6 rocker shaft studs, as compared to the other 6 studs, when you pull them out, but when they are tightened in place all the studs will appear to be the same height over the rocker shaft stands.  The holes for the #3 and #6 studs are deeper.  It sounds to me like your setup is going together just fine...

[fe66comet]

The race versions are quite a bit different all around, the street versions are a bolt on affair.  T&D has a tech line and are very helpful in any questions you might run into from purchase to installation.

[FirstEliminator]

    Thanks guys, I appreciate all the help.


    Mark

[FirstEliminator]

    I had called Barry at Survival today and we talked for a bit about the push rods. I believe Barry had mentioned as a generalization he finds the push rods to end up between 8.350 and 8.400. So, I made a pushrod length tool today and checked the 445 I am putting together. The measurement had come out to 8.592.  This is with the adjuster on the T&D rocker arm backed up all the way to compensate for "1 turn in" for hydraulic lifter preload.  The lifter is on the base circle of the cam. It was measured with a Starrett 12" dial caliper. The measurement is taken from ball end to ball end.

    Should I be using the overall length measurement for pushrods? Or, should I deduct some portion of the ball end? Something isn't right, or I wrote down Barry's measurement wrong.

    thanks,
     Mark

[jayb]

So, the T&D rockers use ball-ball pushrods?  Stock adjustable rocker FE pushrods use a ball on the lifter end and a cup on the rocker arm end.  If you need a ball on the rocker arm end for the T&Ds, then the measurement that Barry gave you may be off.  How are you measuring?  I assume you have an adjustable length pushrod and are adjusting that to fit, and then measuring it?  Its sounds like you are measuring correctly, although I think I would not back the adjuster  up all the way like you did; I'd probably bring it down a turn at least.

For either ball-ball or ball-cup pushrods, overall length is what you need to specify.

[FirstEliminator]

   Hey Jay,

   Yes, ball-ball with the T&D.  Talking to Barry today, he mentioned the method that he liked to use is to back up the adjuster and take the measurement. He said T&D likes to have their adjuster about in the middle and only turned + or - one turn. Which seems to be what I recall reading in their instructions. Barry recommended one turn preload on the hydraulic lifter. So, the one turn preload will put the rocker adjuster in the optimal position.
    Today I took an old FT pushrod which was ball-ball cut about 2 inches out of the middle. Then threaded the ends about 1 1/2 inches on both ends.  On the lathe, I turned down a piece of 3/4" to about 1/2", then drilled and tapped the tube. It came out o-k.
     The cam is on the base circle and the rocker shaft was tightened down. I put the adjustable pushrod in and lengthened it until there was zero lash. I would then remove the rocker assembly and remove the adjustable pushrod without disturbing it's adjustment. Measured it with the dial caliper and twice came up with 8.592". I think this is the first time I have ever measured for custom length pushrods which is why I am not totally confident in the measurement, even though the proceedure is strait forward. I guess I am not confident because my measurement differs from the recomendation from a reputable source.

    The adjustable pushrod tool was the first project on a "new to me" lathe: 1940 Pratt & Whitney model B 12x30.

[jayb]

Sounds to me like you are doing everything right, Mark.  I'd go with that measurement.

[FirstEliminator]

    Hey Jay, thanks for the boost in confidence.  I'll measure again tomorrow to make sure I don't come up with something different in the course of 13 hours. Then place my order for push rods and get another step closer with the 445 for the 66 Cyclone project. 

     Before anyone asks-------yes, I am a machine fanatic too. Mostly New England built machines, but love all old American Iron.
 
           

[sixty9cobra]

just make sure you let the rocker go through its movement on the valve tip. It should stay in the middle of the stem or close to it.

[afret]

The pushrod length depends on a bunch of factors that tend to make it a bit different for each engine such as how much the heads were milled, head gasket thickness, valve job.........

Also if you have the time, you can measure for all 16.

[cjshaker]

Shouldn't he allow for compressed head gasket thickness also? I didn't see that anywhere.

[Barry_R]

Use your measurements.  My general comments are just that - general, and will change depending on your block, heads, cam base circle, etc. 

Working via the cell phone and computer today - have a sick kid at home....

[fe66comet]

I always measure push rod length on any build, stock or not. Cam base circles and possible variables even from the factories original set up like seat and valve machining can change drastically......Jon

[FirstEliminator]

     Well, I took a measurement with a 3/8 ball end push rod from an FT. It didnt' looks like it really sat in the seat too well. I did call T&D and they recommended to use a 5/16" ball with their rockers. Out of curiosity, I put some Dykem blue on the ball ends of the 3/8" push rod and put it down in the seat and twisted it a few times. Only a very thin line was marked. I found a 5/16" push rod and made a new tool. I also checked the end with the layout fluid and there was a lot more surface area contact.
   
 

   I did check all the lifters and rockers for pushrod length. The measurement with the 5/16" push rods lowest was 8.648 and the highest was 8 696. The overall average is 8.675. This was with the adjuster backed up into the rocker body.

     One turn on the T&D rocker arm adjuster seems to yeild about .050" travel.   

   T&D instructions say to measure with the adjuster one turn in from backed up all the way---this is initial position. They also say not to run with more than one turn in or out from the initial position.

 The hydraulic lifter preload is one turn. So it makes sense to back off the one turn, then you end up in the initial position.

   Now, if I buy push rods for the average of 8.675. Some rockers will have more than zero lash and require up to an extra half a turn, which would be within the specs of T&D's adjustment parameters.   Yet, other rockers will have less than zero lash, partially preloading the lifter. With these, I suspect to turn in a half turn to acheive the same amount of lifter preload across the board. This sounds like the best happy medium to me. Or, I could buy several different length push rods---which I don't really want to do.



Now, the question is, do I order push rods with through oiling or no oiling?

   thanks,
    Mark

[afret]

I think the reason T+D specifies the plus or minus from the one turn out position is to make sure the oil hole on the adjuster is in the right spot for oil to get through.  If the T+D street setup has needle bearings at the shaft, you could just cut off oil from the head and get oil from the pushrods.  You probably would get too much oil on the head if you use both sources.   

I'm not familiar with hydraulic rollers but you might look at the lifters and see where the oil source for the pushrod is on the lifter body and spin the oil pump with the lifters in the block to check the oil flow before deciding on pushrod oiling.  The solid rollers have the oil hole for the pushrods on the body away from the oil band and turned 90* from the lifter oil passage to limit the oil flow.  You get a reasonable amount of oil that way since the oil is restricted by the clearance between the lifter and lifter bore.  Crane puts a very shallow groove in the lifter body from the oil band to the pushrod oil hole and the amount of oil to the head is a bit much even with that small groove.   If the hydraulic rollers have the lifter oil hole in the lifter oil band,  you will get too much oil to the head and might have to use pushrods with restrictors so it might be better to just use the original oil passage in the head.

Here's a photo of three different FE solid rollers.  You can see the small oil hole for the pushrods just above the oil band.  The Crane lifter on the left is a different design but you should be able to see the small hole above the large oil hole and the shallow groove connecting the two that increase the oil flow a lot.

[FirstEliminator]

   I see where the variation in comes from in the need for different push rod lengths.  The valve step tips are at different heights. I'd guess that some seats are pressed in the head a little further than others. I did not remove the head to verify.  Does this variation seem normal for Edelbrock heads?

    Mark

[jayb]

I've seen variation in valve heights on lots of FE heads, but I don't know if the Edelbrock heads come like that or not.  Variations in the valve job and valve height can contribute to that issue.  With adjustable rockers its usually not a problem unless the variation is quite wide. 

[FirstEliminator]

About the oiling  to the rockers. Tonight I bolted down the intake, put in the push rods and adjusted the rockers. I put about a gallon of oil in the pan and used a drill to spin the oil pump. Well, instantly,  there was a  puddle on the floor.  Putting an oil filter on the engine seals up a big leak.   Anyway, I ran the drill  for what seemed like only a few seconds and there was oil dripping off the heads.  There was more oil on top than I've seen on previous Clevelands, Windsors and 460's. The question is, is there is too much oil going to the top?

The push rods I have are hollow and the stock top end oiling is not restricted.  The drill I used was a 1/2" air drill that turns about 400 rpms. I thought it should load the drill a bit more than it did.   

  How do I tell if there is too much oil going to the top?

     If there is too much oil, what can I do at this point to slow it down? 


   thanks,
     Mark

[jayb]

How do I tell if there is too much oil going to the top?

The only way to tell is with a clear valve cover    Seriously, is your valvetrain set up to oil through the pushrods, or through the rocker shafts like a standard FE?  If you have the T&D street rocker setup, you are oiling through the rocker shafts; the race T&D rockers oil through the pushrods.  If you are oiling through the rocker shafts, a standard restrictor arrangement for Edelbrock heads is to take a 3/16" steel  dowel about a half inch long, and drill a .070" or .080" hole through it, and then drop it into the oil feed hole under the #3 and #6 rocker shaft stands.  You can also buy these restrictors pre-made from Doug Garifo at Precision Oil Pumps.  If you are oiling through the pushrods, then you will need to restrict oil to the lifters, and that is done by accessing the plugs in the valley of the engine.  That would mean removing the intake, which it sounds like you've already installed.

You can also just run it as is, but FEs are known for putting a bunch of oil to the top of the engine, leaving very little in the pan.  So I'd recommend using the restrictors...

[FirstEliminator]

    By putting the restricters in heads, would it knock down the excess volume to the top end enough to not worry about the restricting to the lifters? 

[jayb]

I would say if you restrict the oil to the rockershafts you should be good to go.  That's what I've done on the majority of the FEs I've built.

[FirstEliminator]

    I called T&D today. Their tech suggested to completely block off the oil ports through the head if there is pushrod oiling in place.

    It will be nice to get this project done.

    Then I might be able to work on one of my own cars.

    Mark

     

[Barry_R]

If you are using the T&D street rockers we recommend a .060 restrictor pressed into the head's feed.  It'll work perfectly fine, have adequate oil, and from then on you worry about other things.  Don't worry about blocking off the lifter galley, and don't completely block off the heads please - save that approach for the race rocker stuff.

It's pretty common for a modest variation from intake to exhaust on valve tip heights - not usually enough to worry about, but it's there.  Same for spring heights - for some reason Edelbrock mills the pockets to a different depth.