Author Topic: Torque and Clearance Specs.  (Read 15261 times)

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bn69stang

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Re: Torque and Clearance Specs.
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2013, 07:45:43 PM »
So if a hydraulic cam will spin to 6000 rpm , power wise its done by 5500 ish most likely so set the limiter a couple hundred higher and be safe ?
69 mach 1 , 428 C J  Blue Oval Performance BBM heads -T@D rocker s- Blue thunder intake - Comp hydr roller - MSD ignition - FPA headers- Holley 850 hp double pumper - TKO 600 - 9 inch 3.89 Detroit Locker . ride tech coil over conversion - power rack @ pinoin steering - 13 inch drilled @ slotted 4 wheel disc brakes ..

jayb

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Re: Torque and Clearance Specs.
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2013, 09:58:24 PM »
How many times have you had that happen Jay?  That would get under my skin real quick....

Just a couple of times, back in the 80s.  The worst one was with a 429 SCJ engine.  I had a fairly strong hydraulic cam in the engine and of course the cam manufacturer said it would run to 7000 RPM, so after I got the engine together and in the car I took it there a few times.  For some reason, after the first few times it wouldn't turn much past about 5500.  Then one day the engine just quit on me while driving down the road.

After getting back to the shop I discovered the distributor wasn't turning.  Took it out and the gear was stripped.  Looked down the hole and the cam gear was stripped too.  Pulled the oil pan and took out the pump, and it was frozen solid.  Disassembled the pump and there was this tiny little steel wire jammed in the pump rotor; it had fed up through the oil pump pickup screen and lodged in the rotor, jamming the pump and breaking the gears. 

Next day I took the pump into my machinist's place, and asked him what he thought about the situation.  We were both puzzling over where the piece of wire could have come from, and just concluded that it must have been a foreign object that got into the engine somehow.  A week later, though, my machinist called me back.  He said, "That wire is just about the size of the wire they put in hydraulic lifters to retain the plunger."

After that I pulled the intake.  Six or seven of the lifters had the clips popped up, so that the U part was still in the lifter, but the ends were sticking up out of the lifter body at an angle.  And, of course, one lifter had the clip completely gone.  It had clearly popped out of the lifter early on, and was mangled by the reciprocating assembly on its way down to the oil pan.  Finally a piece of the wire fed into the oil pump, and that was that.  Pulled the head on the side where the lifter clip was completely gone, and the exhaust valve that was controlled by that lifter was slightly bent and had obviously been hitting the piston.

Being a slow learner ( ;D) I went through a similar situation a couple years later with the 428CJ in my '68 Shelby.  This time, though, when the engine quit wanting to rev past 6000 RPM, I parked it and pulled the intake.  There were a bunch more of the clips popped up, and two missing clips.  I found them both in the oil pan, then removed all the lifters and put hardware store C-clips in them in place of the wire clips.  Never had a problem after that.

FWIW, knowing what I do now, I would never try to rev a hydraulic cam to 7000 RPM.  I've never seen one make power on the dyno past 6000, so what's the point.  Most of them I've tested peak in power a lot lower than that.  Back in the day, if I couldn't rev to 7000 RPM I wasn't cool, so I had to do it  ;D  Now I know better...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

jayb

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Re: Torque and Clearance Specs.
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2013, 10:00:14 PM »
So if a hydraulic cam will spin to 6000 rpm , power wise its done by 5500 ish most likely so set the limiter a couple hundred higher and be safe ?

Yep, I don't think you'll run into any serious problems with the rev limiter set at, say, 5800 RPM.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

blykins

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Re: Torque and Clearance Specs.
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2013, 03:58:50 AM »
So if a hydraulic cam will spin to 6000 rpm , power wise its done by 5500 ish most likely so set the limiter a couple hundred higher and be safe ?

That's about where I generally aim for a hydraulic roller in an FE...5500 peak.  I've had a couple of them peak at 6000-6100, but that was with the standard issue lazy lobe cam, Morel lifters, etc.  In my experiences, the lazier lobes from Comp (High Energy, etc.) will make about 20-25 more hp than the more aggressive lobes, such as the Xtreme Energy, XFI, etc., when  you start pulling to the higher rpm ranges.

Barry's going to 7100-7200 with his hydraulic roller EMC engine, but it takes a lot of specialized parts. 

« Last Edit: October 08, 2013, 04:00:32 AM by blykins »
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
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www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
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bn69stang

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Re: Torque and Clearance Specs.
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2013, 04:12:22 PM »
Even with lighter valves , smaller stem and lighter retainers  ?  I would think that would help the control somewhat in the higher rpm s , say to maybe the 6000 rpm range .. maybe  ?
69 mach 1 , 428 C J  Blue Oval Performance BBM heads -T@D rocker s- Blue thunder intake - Comp hydr roller - MSD ignition - FPA headers- Holley 850 hp double pumper - TKO 600 - 9 inch 3.89 Detroit Locker . ride tech coil over conversion - power rack @ pinoin steering - 13 inch drilled @ slotted 4 wheel disc brakes ..

blykins

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Re: Torque and Clearance Specs.
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2013, 05:04:41 PM »
I can get 6000-6200 pretty easily but that's about it with "normal" parts.  My higher end FE stuff gets 11/32" valves, usually hollow stem Ferrea, tool steel or titanium retainers, and usually a dual spring or a beehive spring.  All usually net the same results.  Spring pressures are usually around 175 seat and. 400 open and I've tried a good bit more than that too.
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
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bn69stang

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Re: Torque and Clearance Specs.
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2013, 05:13:34 PM »
Thanks for the feed back , this 428 cj is my first f e is it possible to get 1.09 to 1.10 hp per cubic inch with a dual plane intake and a hydraulic cam ? , just looking for an honest  475 hp out of 434 cu i  .. Bud
69 mach 1 , 428 C J  Blue Oval Performance BBM heads -T@D rocker s- Blue thunder intake - Comp hydr roller - MSD ignition - FPA headers- Holley 850 hp double pumper - TKO 600 - 9 inch 3.89 Detroit Locker . ride tech coil over conversion - power rack @ pinoin steering - 13 inch drilled @ slotted 4 wheel disc brakes ..

blykins

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Re: Torque and Clearance Specs.
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2013, 05:17:21 PM »
Factory parts or aftermarket?
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

bn69stang

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Re: Torque and Clearance Specs.
« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2013, 05:39:19 PM »
The short block is .040 over and crank is 10/10 , rods are stock with arp bolts , windage tray , heads are Edelbrock out of the box , blue thunder dual plane intake , holley 750 hp double pumper , msd distributor and box and coil , and fpa headers and have a comp XE 274 H cam , hence the rpm questions , lighter valves , lighter retainer s and  T @ D street rocker arm kit as well .. Bud thanks
69 mach 1 , 428 C J  Blue Oval Performance BBM heads -T@D rocker s- Blue thunder intake - Comp hydr roller - MSD ignition - FPA headers- Holley 850 hp double pumper - TKO 600 - 9 inch 3.89 Detroit Locker . ride tech coil over conversion - power rack @ pinoin steering - 13 inch drilled @ slotted 4 wheel disc brakes ..

blykins

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Re: Torque and Clearance Specs.
« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2013, 05:50:55 PM »
I don't think you'll have much trouble making 450-475 hp.   If you dyno it, it will depend on which dyno you use.   That cam is 236@ .050", which should peak below the rpm that you would have valve float issues with. 

Maybe Jay has built a very similar combo that he could lend as an example.
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

bn69stang

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Re: Torque and Clearance Specs.
« Reply #25 on: October 08, 2013, 06:29:29 PM »
Thanks Brent for the fedback , just want to make this 428 cj healthy , and i guess im looking for every hp or foot lb of torque cuz im 5500 feet above sea level and have a lack of air or cylinder pressure . i have another 428 block and want to stroke it and have h beam rods , forged pistons or even buck up for a 427 block and really add some cubes , and again thanks for the input .. Bud
69 mach 1 , 428 C J  Blue Oval Performance BBM heads -T@D rocker s- Blue thunder intake - Comp hydr roller - MSD ignition - FPA headers- Holley 850 hp double pumper - TKO 600 - 9 inch 3.89 Detroit Locker . ride tech coil over conversion - power rack @ pinoin steering - 13 inch drilled @ slotted 4 wheel disc brakes ..

blykins

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Re: Torque and Clearance Specs.
« Reply #26 on: October 08, 2013, 06:53:35 PM »
You will be at a disadvantage that high up...

I know it's not a direct comparison, but I did a 428 with out of the box Edelbrock heads, a Tunnel Wedge, and a 248/254 solid roller cam and it made about 540 hp @ 6500.  It had more cam and intake than you, but your engine certainly won't be a slouch.
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

jayb

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Re: Torque and Clearance Specs.
« Reply #27 on: October 08, 2013, 08:04:42 PM »
I don't think you'll have much trouble making 450-475 hp.   If you dyno it, it will depend on which dyno you use.   That cam is 236@ .050", which should peak below the rpm that you would have valve float issues with. 

Maybe Jay has built a very similar combo that he could lend as an example.

I haven't built one quite like that, but I agree it is very do-able.  Bud, I have to ask - why don't you want to run a solid cam?
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

bn69stang

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Re: Torque and Clearance Specs.
« Reply #28 on: October 08, 2013, 08:46:24 PM »
I guess i was just wanting to do it with what parts i had , sense this motor has stock rods , cast pistons and is together . Really want to upgrade to h beam rods , forged piston s and internal balance and more cubes on the next motor . And being at 5500 ft above sea level i feel more cubes is the direction to go for hp and tq . I really thought about the 282s for this motor , but want to spend the money on the next motor and get more aggressive with head work , compression , cam . Do you know anyone that wants to a hydraulic cam and lifter s   lol .. Bud
69 mach 1 , 428 C J  Blue Oval Performance BBM heads -T@D rocker s- Blue thunder intake - Comp hydr roller - MSD ignition - FPA headers- Holley 850 hp double pumper - TKO 600 - 9 inch 3.89 Detroit Locker . ride tech coil over conversion - power rack @ pinoin steering - 13 inch drilled @ slotted 4 wheel disc brakes ..

bn69stang

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Re: Torque and Clearance Specs.
« Reply #29 on: October 09, 2013, 07:45:46 PM »
Jay what you think the horsepower diff would be on my motor with the info listed above with a hydraulic  230-236 @ .50  562-565 lift on a 110 lobe  vs the 282 s solid where your at , and 5500 ft above sea level .. just curios i was thinking about 20 hp at sea level and maybe half that at 5500 ft .. thanks  Bud
69 mach 1 , 428 C J  Blue Oval Performance BBM heads -T@D rocker s- Blue thunder intake - Comp hydr roller - MSD ignition - FPA headers- Holley 850 hp double pumper - TKO 600 - 9 inch 3.89 Detroit Locker . ride tech coil over conversion - power rack @ pinoin steering - 13 inch drilled @ slotted 4 wheel disc brakes ..