FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: fekbmax on July 23, 2015, 03:09:15 PM
-
Has anyone had any experience with Cam Research, the ford cam specialist ? Without having the benefits of testing different cams on a dyno or having a good simulation program whats the best way to chose the very Best cam you can for your particular application. ? Talk to the cam manufacturers tech and give them all the info possable and let Them make a recommendation ? Sometimes they make you feel like there just looking in a catalog and putting there finger on something. Maybe talking to custom cam grinders would be better ? I feel like some of the awesome Fe engine builders would be a better choose but sometimes it seems they also may be just choosing something in general as well and I get there all very busy and if there not providing services directly for you then there not going to be as. Incline to take the time. Maybe be brave enough to post all my specs here and see if anyone has a strong openion of there own.. I'm just throwing it out there. Just fishing. Theres alto of great minds on this site, no doubt about it and tons of knowledge. I have a cam and have mentioned it to a few guys and what I get in responce is "that should work OK".
I guess what I'm getting at is what's you guys thoughts on the best way to choose the right cam the first time.. ?
-
I'll show you mine. ;)
I say put it out there, I can't think of a better place to ask for real input.
-
Contact an engine builder with lots of experience with the engine you're working on. Don't waste your time with the cam "tech lines". Call 5-6 of them and ask if they've ever seen an FE. ;-) You will find that most of the off-the-shelf FE cams are the typical 6° duration split, 110 LSA, 106 ICL. Sure, that can work for a lot of stuff, but there are certain combinations that just need something different.
The guys who can help the most are the ones who screw together FE's every day....and there's a handful of us on here. So ask away. :)
BTW, most of us are "custom cam grinders" in the sense that we have access to lobe catalogs from the various manufacturers and we hand-pick the lobes based on the needs/wants...then we just have a cam manufacturer grind it and away we go.
-
Don't waste your time with the cam "tech lines".
x2, 3 and 4 on that statement. The LAST person I'd ask for advice would be someone from their tech line. With few exceptions, most are younger kids being payed a minimal wage to read recommendations from a book, based on small block and big block chevys to boot.
If looking for a general recommendation for a stocked cam, I'd ask here. If something for a specific combo that is race dedicated, I'd ask one of the engine guys here, or all of them.
-
When you ask a cam company to offer a recommendation, generic input information will yield a generic result. If you can give them flow-at-lift figures as well as intended use they'll be much better equipped to do a good job for you. Just sayin'.
KS
-
Ok fellas, here it is. You can poke fun at me if you wish but this is what I have and I'm not looking to change any major parts because I'll be putting the pond big cube engine together in a year or so.. pour boy racing you know. I'd like some input on a good solid roller cam and lifters and also a 4150 carb recommendation. I'll be glad to share any other info needed and hope that if I'm lucky enough one of you engine builders will help me out a bit. I'd like to get as close as I can to getting the right cam the first time.
*4.140 bore
*4.125 stroke
*6.535 rod
*14/1 pistons
*Edalbrock/kuntz cnc heads, stock port locations. Flow numbers available.
*Titanium intake and exhaust valves, 1.750 EX and 2.250 IN
*Ported fe power adapter with either funnel Web intake/carb ? or simi fabricated (fab plenum with tunnel ram runners) duel re worked 660 carbs (715cfm each) or matched predator's setup.
*2-1/8" KB max headers 4" collectors
*Msd crank trigger + locked timing.
*Jerico clutch less 4 speed, (may be switching to a jeffco soon)
*Tube chassis mild steel certified to 7.50
*14"×32" MT tire
*2510lb with driver
*75% 1/8th mile use
*25% 1/4 mile use
*Possibly up to 250hp shot of NOS but want to obtain as much hp/tk from engine alone.
*7200 - 7600 max rpm
I'm open to making minor changes and any advice at all.
I'll take my punches now, just try an hit above the belt.
Thanks guys..
-
Need flow numbers....
-
Keith,you said max RPM of 7200-7600; where are you planning to shift? If you shifted at 7200 and ran through the traps at 7400-7600, I'd say you want to pick a cam that will peak in horsepower around 6700 RPM or so. With 444 cubes, I'd be looking at a 266-272 intake duration @ 0.050". The flow numbers will help with figuring out lift and the exhaust lobe.
-
what cubes will the Pond engine have ??
-
Jay, Brent ,
here are the flow numbers on the heads,
Intake flow Exhaust flow
.300 - 216cfm .300 - 160cfm
.400 - 267cfm .400 - 197cfm
.500 - 309cfm .500 - 231
.600 - 338cfm .600 - 262
.700 - 361cfm .700 - 279
.800 - 379cfm .800 - 288
.900 - 390cfm .900 - 292
1. - 399cfm 1. - 293
Intake flowed with clay orifice, Exhaust flowed with no pipe. these heads had been hand ported a couple times in the past as i have had them a very long time so there were a few very small places that the CNC didn't hit which probably plays into the numbers.
Jay, i maybe shouldn't have set an RPM limit as of yet, im open to spinning it more or less. id like to get the most power+torque out of the combination and maybe let that dictate my shift and max rpm. i think my biggest handicap is the factory block. its a good block with decently thick cylinder walls even after a .090 bore, its filled to within 1-1/2" of the deck, has the re enforced webbing, im using pro-gram cross-bolt caps and a concept design main girdle. i will be using my own priority main oiling setup as well. pistons are venola custom , rods are manely aluminum (shelf), crank is a scat steel. my bob weight comes in at 1904 grams. anything else i can help with ill be happy to. i plan on documenting the build here very soon once i start putting it together. that is as long as i don't get to many laughs, LOL..
thanks so much guys for any help you may give. also i have a cam here but id rather wait and see what you guys think before i reveal what it is because the few people i have talked to (mostly the so called cam techs) once i tell them what i have i always get the "oh that should work" and yeah idk id rather know what you guys think.
thanks again for any and all help.
not sure yet on the pond block CID, more piston, more stroke and more throw lol. to be determined .. one step at a time for pore boy racing..
-
I think I'll make some popcorn... ::) this should get real interesting! ;)
No offense to your build meant FE MAX, just talking about those flow numbers for a "stock port location" MR head.
As for a cam... I would say something around mid to upper 270's on the intake lobe, maybe around .800 lift, and mid to upper 280's on the exhaust at around .760 lift on a 109 or 110 should work nicely.
With your light bobweight, (and lightweight car) that thing should really rev/accelerate quick!
-
Thor , he did say Kuntz .... so those numbers could very well be legit
-
i can only supply the numbers i have been given. we flowed one random intake and one random exhaust on Wiz-Bangs super flow 600 flow bench back on 9-5-15 and both of those were within 3 to 4 cfm of the numbers Kuntz had given me across the board. i have no reason not to believe Kuntz but also i personally have never operated a flow bench so i couldn't say one way or the other if either operator manipulated the numbers.
-
There's a lot more to it than flow.....velocity is just as (if not more) important. Just going off of the numbers laid out before us, mid 260's at .050" duration will get you a 7000 rpm hp peak with 445 inches and hitting at around .700" lift.
Do you know the port volume? I would imagine it's on the large side...
With an 80% intake/exhaust ratio, you don't need a big duration split....3-4° will work.
If I were doing something like this and weren't wanting super stock valve lift, I'd use a pair of Comp RZ lobes, 264/268 @ .050", .757"/.760" lift, and shorten the LSA up to help the exhaust scavenge the big intake port.....probably a 107-108 LSA. The shorter rod will help you here too, but I imagine that intake port is HUGE.
That's where I would head.....your mileage may vary.
-
Why don't you call Jim and get a cam from him? The ONLY way to know where the rpm range will land with a "given" duration number is to run a cam or two with your exact induction set-up, and bore and stroke, and get some idea of where it will shake out. Bore, stroke, engine size, throat diameter, valve size, port and manifold cross-section, runner length, and plenum volume......and a few more things I won't go into, will all move where the peaks occur, and how far apart they will be. You also need to think about some of the lower lift points, and throw the .8, .9, and 1-inch lift numbers out the window, as long as they don't back up after .750.....
Jim is a pretty smart cookie, and I would wager that he knows what the heads like, if he has worked with them on engines in the past. JMO.
If you plan to consider the flow from .500-up only, you will need at least a 4.5 bore, 3.5-ish stroke, short/fat intake runners, and a tach that goes to 12000.
-
If you plan to consider the flow from .500-up only, you will need at least a 4.5 bore, 3.5-ish stroke, short/fat intake runners, and a tach that goes to 12000.
That's not my plan at all. I'll add the lower numbers as soon as I'm back at the shop if they will help. Believe me I'd love to be able to test several combinations on a dyno given the chance but I don't have near the resources or experience as you guys so as I said I'm just trying to do the best I can with what I have.
I have talked to Jim and I was only wanting other views and opinions. I realize it's kinda a gray area and somewhat of a guess when I can't do extensive Dyno test. I admire you guys work and was just interested in each one of you guys opinion for this garage build. Thanks for taking the time to look it over and thank you for your opinion and information.
-
Keith, send me a PM with your contact info. I'd need some more info, but I'll give you an opinion ........need to talk some about your end use, and other parts that effect things.
-
Keith, send me a PM with your contact info. I'd need some more info, but I'll give you an opinion ........need to talk some about your end use, and other parts that effect things.
Why don't you guys discuss it here, so we can all learn from it? This forum is the reason you met in the first place.
JMO,
paulie
-
I don't know how I feel about that Paulie...
I was in the mood to give out my thoughts but Blair wasn't and there's nothing wrong with that. Sure it's a forum meant to discuss things but I have seen scenarios (such as this) where people feel that they are entitled to all the information and experience that a builder has accumulated over the years. Why do you think that you freely deserve what has taken many hours and dollars to figure out?
-
I don't know how I feel about that Paulie...
I was in the mood to give out my thoughts but Blair wasn't and there's nothing wrong with that. Sure it's a forum meant to discuss things but I have seen scenarios (such as this) where people feel that they are entitled to all the information and experience that a builder has accumulated over the years. Why do you think that you freely deserve what has taken many hours and dollars to figure out?
Because you're on a public forum. YOU decided to come here. I've been over this with you, as well. I don't feel like I'm entitled to anyone's hard-won knowledge. You and Blair and many others have obviously worked hard and learned a lot. That doesn't mean you can come here to meet clients, and get sales. Even though this is Jay's forum, and of course he can tell me I'm wrong if he so believes, it is STILL a public forum, not a place for vendors to hook up with clients.
Vendors DECIDE to post here. You know that. So don't act like you're some kind of saint. That's baloney and you know it.
I'm not a saint either, and we both know that. :)
I want to use Blair for some parts of my next build, so the easy and pragmatic, and selfish thing, for me to do would be to say nothing. So why would I?
Or would you like me to treat people differently base upon my own needs? No, I'll treat everybody the same even if it's not in my own interests.
You can advertise anywhere and anytime you want. Is a public FE Forum the place for it?
What is the first and best purpose of forum? The sharing of information? Or is it just free advertising?
JMO,
paulie
-
It's for sharing information but there are some things that we don't feel like sharing, or just don't have the time to sit down and type out a book. We shouldn't be called out for that. Plus there are instances where we just don't want to put up with the drama, cause we all know that our uncle Roscoe's cousin's roommate knows more than we do.
-
Keith, send me a PM with your contact info. I'd need some more info, but I'll give you an opinion ........need to talk some about your end use, and other parts that effect things.
Pm sent
-
Then find clients on your own. A forum is for sharing information. If you have time to talk on the phone you have time to type a post.
I appreciate all the information you have freely given here and on other forums. It is good advertising for you and helpful to FE enthusiasts at the same time.
JMO,
paulie
-
It's for sharing information but there are some things that we don't feel like sharing, or just don't have the time to sit down and type out a book. We shouldn't be called out for that. Plus there are instances where we just don't want to put up with the drama, cause we all know that our uncle Roscoe's cousin's roommate knows more than we do.
I for one totally get this. Especially with FE's . I think all you guys do a great job with sharing general information and even some sweet tricks and secrets. . I'd never expected for one of you guys to build me an engine on paper for free and for sure not for everyone to see. You guys do a great job with the builds and dyno sheets and just that info is a blessing but we all know having all the right parts is only half the battle, takes guys like you to really know what to do with them. I for one am great full for the general information and guidelines. I have built many garage built FE's for street and mostly for drag racing. I try and take it all in, every opinion and suggestion and learn what I can from it.
This is a great place and there's so much knowledge here and I hate to see people get upset about things cause everyone has an opinion and that's a great thing. I just try and take it all in and learn what I can no matter how little or how much someone shares. . A little tid bit here and there and some.good advice from the guys in the know is a great thing..
But yeah believe me, if any of you guys, (the big 5) lol wanna build my engine on paper well feel free.... lol
Thanks guys for all that you do share, no matter how much or how little.
-
Easy for you to say Paulie , really easy , post everything you know ....... no wait , first build a record setter type motor , spend 40 years learning it , then come on here and "give it away" in 5 seconds ... I'll be waiting
-
Hey Paul, you must have got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning, LOL. I talk alot better than I type, btw. If you read my first response to Keith's question, I actually was trying to get him to go to Jim Kuntz, since he bought the heads from Jim.....if I want to advertise, I'll do it in the classifieds. I come on here because I enjoy reading about things that interest me. I don't post on every topic, but sometimes things strike my interest, and I opine, or comment based on things I have seen in the past. I do not have to post on a feller's cam question to keep my business going. Fortuneatley, it is rolling along quite well at the moment. If I choose to talk or email privately with Mr. Keith, that will be between Keith and myself............he might buy a cam from me.......he might buy one from Kuntz, or he might call a cam company..........sorry I upset you there. I try to be respectful and tactful on here and on the FE forum. Sometimes I won't post when I might like to, because I worry that I'll get a comment like you just made. I don't like it when people in "business" get too frisky in the discussion section either, so I try not to cross what I figure to be the "line"............I guess my idea of the line and yours are different. Whether Keith buys a cam from me or not, there are some ways I come to a determination about what I would use that I do not want to spew out into the interweb for free. I am trying to eat working on FEs. Talking on the tech page is not work for me, it is cool down time that I enjoy...................no harm in you expressing your opinion.........I get where you are coming from...........I just gave you mine. Now THIS is a sales pitch: when you get to the point that I might be able to help you with yours, give me a call.
-
I don't think you will find many pro builders giving as much FREE information as Blair, Brent and Barry have over the years. And it takes a LOT of time (and days replying back and forth) to type out what can be said in a 10 minute conversation. Enough said.
I'm looking forward to your build, Keith. It should be an interesting one.
-
I don't think you will find many pro builders giving as much FREE information as Blair, Brent and Barry have over the years. And it takes a LOT of time (and days replying back and forth) to type out what can be said in a 10 minute conversation. Enough said.
I'm looking forward to your build, Keith. It should be an interesting one.
+1 on all that. Just because you post on a forum doesn't mean that you are required to share all information. I certainly don't, and I'm not even building engines for a living. Also, I'm lucky enough to be able to type pretty fast, but most car guys I know don't, which makes it cumbersome and time consuming to write up a bunch of details. Not everyone has the time or patience for that.
I am happy to have Brent, Blair, and Barry on this forum for the information that they do decide to share, and I hope they continue to be a part of the forum - Jay
-
I agree...
-
I will stand alone with my opinion, then. And I'll keep stating it. If for no other reason than to keep it on the radar.
And yes Blair, I am grumpy sometimes. :P When Brent first came on the net he would respond to most all questions with "email me" or "PM me" or something similar, rather than answering the question on the forum HE posted on. So, I'm definitely a bit sensitized to prostituting a public forum for monetary gain.
paulie
-
Prostituting :) Sounds like those guys are having more fun with these builds than I am... :o
Seriously though, there is no monopoly on information on these forums. If someone is keeping a secret trick secret, there will be either 10 other tricks that will work too, or the "secret" trick really isn't and will come up anyway from someone else.
I bridge the worlds between making money and just fun, but I do think a builder's cam choice for a racer, as well as some other significant tricks in blueprinting, can be valid and worth paying for. In the end, if the full-time vendors help right up to that line, then charge for the remaining, good on them. It's capitalism
Additionally, I don't generally lump it in as free advertising either because the builders take their lumps like anyone else in a forum as well as use their time to respond. It's dangerous for their reputation, it's not like it's one sided. Additionally, time, coordination, the guts to try to feed yourself with an idea...all reasons to have something that keeps you unique. Heck, I bought both Jay's and Barry's books, can't really say they should have just hung it here for free can we?
-
Paulie, I think that's pretty closed-minded to think that I responded to posts with "email me" or "PM me" because I wanted to make a sale. Like the others have mentioned, my time is worth something and quite often, I don't have time to sit down and type everything I could say in a 5 minute phone conversation. I can type almost 90 words a minute, but I can talk much faster than that and it's easy to have a 2-way conversation on the phone.
Regardless, you're more than welcome to stand alone in your opinion.....but I bet your opinion would change if you messed with this stuff for a living.
-
the more info you disperse, the less you are worth. case in point; for 25 years I repaired televisions, & was damned good at it. RCA(remember them?) had a so called tech line for techs that were not too competent. If you had a tough dog, you called them & if they had the repair on file you knew exactly what to do for the repair. nice & easy, quick money. The tech line got to know me & started calling me for advise. Did I run into this or that? At first I would give em the fix & felt a little cocky, but all it was doing was taking my time & helping my competition. I figured why should I give somebody a 5 min. fix when I just spent 25 hours troubleshooting it. years & years of knowledge don't come cheap, you pay dearly for it while you're accumulating it. especially with the failures. sharing info in a hobby is all & good, that's why I am here. but the guys making a living at it deserve to be a little stingy with advise. flame away......
-
So, I'm definitely a bit sensitized to prostituting a public forum for monetary gain.
paulie
I'm actually pretty sensitive myself on that subject, Paulie; I hate being inundated with self-promoting posts. In fact, I banned a vendor a while back because everything he posted seemed to be a veiled advertisement for his products. But I don't see the regulars here doing that, at least not on a consistent basis. Sending a PM, or asking to be emailed for a discussion, keeps that sort of thing off the forum. I like that general approach.
Having said that, I'm probably the worst offender in this regard, even though I'm not a full time vendor. I've put up posts about the process required to build my intake adapters, water pump adapters, timing covers, etc. They are advertised for sale in the classifieds, but people learn about them in the regular forum section, which I admit is skirting the rules. I rationalize that away because most of the things I post are not related to items that I sell, and I'd like to think that overall I don't come across here as just a salesman. I certainly look at the posts from Barry, Blair, and Brent that way; they will freely offer advice and provide data on many topics where they have no hope of ever making a dime.
Just wanted to let you know that I share your concerns, but my level of tolerance seems to be higher than yours ;) - Jay
-
All good points, boys. I'm not the sheriff. I AM glad to simply bring up the subject every once in a while. I don't care if doing so gets me punched in the junk. I'm still glad. Carry on...... :)
JMO,
paulie
edit: Oh yeah, I have bought both Jay's and Barry's books. I have also bought from parts from Brent and Barry and left them good feedback. I'm trying to give Adney $1400-$1500, but he won't take it just yet. ::) I will spend my money and not regret it. My money is not the issue. It's about the internet and why we're here.
-
Prostituting :) Sounds like those guys are having more fun with these builds than I am... :o
LMAO!! For sure!
Having said that, I'm probably the worst offender in this regard, even though I'm not a full time vendor.
But often you are seeking feedback which leads to an improved product. We all win when that happens, so maybe the moderator will cut you some slack ::)
-
Hey Paul, I promise to never punch you in the "junk"....ever......lol. I think I'll keep my comments light-hearted.........bickering has almost ruined the other Forum........where we all came from, including Jay..........we should all enjoy each other, even if some guys see things different than others from time to time.........we still are all here because we are FE people. We should say what we think and move along and be happy.
-
All right, all right, I love everybody! I'm a big jerk, and I love everybody! I'd rather be "punched in the junk" than feel all this emotion. At least when you get "punched in the junk", it's over in a minute. I'm sorry for all the pain I've caused.
Would somebody actually come visit me and punch me in the junk? I'll do anything to make this stop. I have beer.....and chips......
paulie
-
I have beer.....and chips......
Homebrew I suspect? 8) Relax... have a homebrew!
I'm thirsty but you live too far away... It's all good!
-
I have beer.....and chips......
Homebrew I suspect? 8) Relax... have a homebrew!
I'm thirsty but you live too far away... It's all good!
Man. I haven't home-brewed in years. I do need to do that. Thanks for the reminder. I still stand behind all I said, though. You talking about homebrew has nothing to do with it.
I may start a batch of my Thor's Hammer barley-wine in the next week or two.
paulie
-
I'm with you!
I think Blair, Barry, Brent, Kieth, Rob McQ, and anybody else who can should tell me how to put this junk together for free...cuz I'm too damn dumb to figure it out myself. ::)
They should all pitch in and buy me a block and heads too.
Don't be surprised if I show up on yer doorstep to punch you in the junk. Just ask Thor...I didn't punch him or anything...but I did make him give me the grand tour!
Any brew will do.
-
Hey Paul, I promise to never punch you in the "junk"....ever......lol. I think I'll keep my comments light-hearted.........bickering has almost ruined the other Forum........where we all came from, including Jay..........we should all enjoy each other, even if some guys see things different than others from time to time.........we still are all here because we are FE people. We should say what we think and move along and be happy.
Thanks Blair. I'm not backing away from my initial comment at all, but you're obviously a good guy. We all know that you know at least 1000x more about FE's than I do. That was never the issue. That won't stop me from figuratively "punching you in the junk" on occasion. I really wish we lived in a different age where we were all face to face, rather than interacting with keyboards. If you ever need anything let me know. I'll take care of it.
edit: Also Blair, usually when a little guy challenges a big guy on the internet. The usual response of the big guy is to threaten to leave and not post on this forum anymore, unless he is shown the proper respect (then all his little cronies come to his defense). You didn't do that. I respect THAT.
I also respect Jay for not taking the usual knee-jerk reaction. I love this place. I'll go away for a while now. I like tech, too. :)
Have a good one,
paulie
-
I'm with you!
I think Blair, Barry, Brent, Kieth, Rob McQ, and anybody else who can should tell me how to put this junk together for free...cuz I'm too damn dumb to figure it out myself. ::)
They should all pitch in and buy me a block and heads too.
Don't be surprised if I show up on yer doorstep to punch you in the junk. Just ask Thor...I didn't punch him or anything...but I did make him give me the grand tour!
Any brew will do.
I think you're speaking in hyperbole, Tommy. But in any case you're welcome to come see me. I have strong feelings about the use and value of of the internet, that's for sure. Don't take this as a challenge, but rather as an offering. Come see me.
-
After all this, I hope fekbmax will let us know what cam he picked and how it worked out. Sounds like an interesting combo.
JMO,
paulie