Author Topic: Guess the tunnel port horsepower!  (Read 38492 times)

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67 Fastback

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Re: Guess the tunnel port horsepower!
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2012, 05:40:31 PM »
If you go to Lateral G forum there is a build on Robs car very impressive .

e philpott

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Re: Guess the tunnel port horsepower!
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2012, 06:30:54 PM »
well I flubbed that !!  :(  lol... I should have paid more attention to compression ratio and the small .050 on the intake side of the cam

My427stang

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Re: Guess the tunnel port horsepower!
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2012, 07:22:29 PM »
Great motor, but why all the exhaust duration?  That's quite a split.
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

jayb

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Re: Guess the tunnel port horsepower!
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2012, 10:24:16 PM »
We were running 110 octane fuel that is available locally here in the Minneapolis area.  The reason for the long exhaust duration is because the exhaust ports on these heads didn't flow all that well, around 220 cfm if I remember correctly.  Compared to the intake, exhaust flow was low, so Blair compensated with a lot of exhaust duration on the cam.

Here is a link to a web site showing quite a few pictures of Rob's Torino under construction:

http://www.roadstershop.com/current-projects/rob-s-1969-torino
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

jayb

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Re: Guess the tunnel port horsepower!
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2012, 10:49:50 PM »
This morning we got going on the intake swap on Rob's engine.  We removed the tunnel port intake and Rob spent some time cleaning the gasket surfaces in preparation for installation of the single four intake.  When he was finished I took the opportunity to snap a couple of photos of this really cool engine, with the intake off:





Next we installed the 4V intake and then re-installed the valvetrain.  Here's a couple of photos of the engine at this stage; the second one shows Blair doing the valvetrain installation on the left side.





We finished the engine off by installing my 1150 Dominator on the intake.  After installation we started the engine and ran it for a few minutes to warm up before making any pulls.  Unfortunately the engine didn't have crankcase vacuum any more, in spite of the fact that we re-sealed the distributor with The Right Stuff.  We suspected that the end rails of the intake, where we had used The Right Stuff to seal, just hadn't had enough time to set up, and that the leak was there.  Rob confirmed this later in the dyno session by noting that we had a minor oil leak at the back of the intake.  As a result of no crankcase vacuum, we expected the engine to be down a little bit on power.

Nevertheless we went ahead with a few dyno pulls, first with my 1150 Dominator, and later with Rob's brand new 1050 Dominator.  Rob's carb made a bit more torque than mine did, and ran about the same peak horsepower.  It showed a little leaner on the A/F readings, but they were pretty close.  Here's a dyno plot of the best pull with Rob's carb, which made 629 lb-ft of torque at 4900 RPM, and 672 horsepower at 6400; these are the black lines on the graph.  The red lines are the previous day's result from the tunnel wedge intake:



Finally we installed Blair's double throwdown, triple whammy, brand new 4150 carb to try it out against the Dominators.  Here's a shot of the carb on the engine:



Unfortunately, at this point the dyno quit cooperating.  We had been having troubles on and off with the starter during the past three days, and after making a brief checkout pull from 3500 to 5000  RPM with Blair's carb, the starter quit engaging the flywheel.  I've been using this particular flywheel for about five years, and the teeth have definitely seen better days.  It appears that they chose this moment to check out.  I tried replacing the starter with one that had a better gear, but it was no use; the engine would not turn over more than 90 or 180 degrees before it would stop and the starter gear would grind against the flywheel.  So, we had to call it a day without testing the 4150 carb.   >:(

In any case though, we had a great time over the past three days, dynoing the two engines very successfully and shooting the FE breeze along the way.  I have to thank Blair and Rob for making the 1000 mile drive from Tennessee to dyno the motors here; it was my pleasure to have them, and I hope we get a chance to do it again some time.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2012, 10:06:59 AM by jayb »
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

fetorino

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Re: Guess the tunnel port horsepower!
« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2012, 12:32:19 AM »
From my point of view what a great three days.  I would have really been something to see what the whamy triple throw down carb would do but those are the breaks.  Jay you are one heck of a nice guy and your hospitality is unparalleled.   

I'd drive the 1k mi anytime (in the summer months  :D) to dyno at your place. 

66FAIRLANE

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Re: Guess the tunnel port horsepower!
« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2012, 12:59:45 AM »
Great stuff! I was surprised to see some of the guesses so far apart between the dual and single carbs.

machoneman

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Re: Guess the tunnel port horsepower!
« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2012, 08:52:50 AM »
Nice results! Thanks for the link to the Torino pics Jay. That is definitely a max effort car build-up as well.  Great to see modern testing of the now near 45 year old T-port design .
Bob Maag

Qikbbstang

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Re: Guess the tunnel port horsepower!
« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2012, 09:20:23 AM »
LOL crow-crow only 5 off on both Hp and Tq I'd say I nailed it and actually placed the rpms in the figure ranges.. One thing I kept in mind this is a Road Race engine not a Drag Racer so kept it down a hair.

My427stang

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Re: Guess the tunnel port horsepower!
« Reply #24 on: November 12, 2012, 09:59:32 AM »
How would over-scavenging show up on a dyno?

Flattening out on top and showing rich maybe?

Certainly no criticism on the motor, Blair does great stuff, but I have been considering how more lift/less duration on the exhaust side would work out.

My thought is, for these big ones, keep a constant overlap value (in my case for drivability) but instead of big exhaust duration, add intake duration for power but make a shorter, taller exhaust lobe that flows enough but shuts the door early.

Although I haven't figured out a way to calculate what the motor might want, it seems to me that especially with a very good header design, adding exhaust duration could  eventually overscavenge.   

The second phase to that is, if it is overscavenging and a quick and tall exhaust lobe will fix it, may as well get a little more intake lobe to make some additional top end power.

I noticed Kaase was doing it on his EMC Hemi motors, which are known to overscavenge with too much exhaust duration, but how would we see it on a dyno to know if a wedge was emptying the chambers?
« Last Edit: November 12, 2012, 10:01:39 AM by My427stang »
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

fetorino

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Re: Guess the tunnel port horsepower!
« Reply #25 on: November 12, 2012, 10:18:11 AM »
Click on the picture because these motors need ot be heard to be appreciated. 8)

BruceS

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Re: Guess the tunnel port horsepower!
« Reply #26 on: November 12, 2012, 11:00:41 AM »
Fetorino, Jay, and Blair: Wow! What a treat to see and hear about this session and that awesome Tunnel port!  Isn't it great that we live in a time when we mere mortals can play with Ford's racing legends?  I think Lee Roy, Cale, and Davey Pearson would be proud!  Can't beat that sound, too.
66 Fairlane 500, 347-4V SB stroker, C4
63 Galaxie 500 fastback, 482 SO 4V, Cruise-O-Matic

jayb

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Re: Guess the tunnel port horsepower!
« Reply #27 on: November 12, 2012, 11:44:01 AM »
How would over-scavenging show up on a dyno?

Flattening out on top and showing rich maybe?

Certainly no criticism on the motor, Blair does great stuff, but I have been considering how more lift/less duration on the exhaust side would work out.

My thought is, for these big ones, keep a constant overlap value (in my case for drivability) but instead of big exhaust duration, add intake duration for power but make a shorter, taller exhaust lobe that flows enough but shuts the door early.

Although I haven't figured out a way to calculate what the motor might want, it seems to me that especially with a very good header design, adding exhaust duration could  eventually overscavenge.   

The second phase to that is, if it is overscavenging and a quick and tall exhaust lobe will fix it, may as well get a little more intake lobe to make some additional top end power.

I noticed Kaase was doing it on his EMC Hemi motors, which are known to overscavenge with too much exhaust duration, but how would we see it on a dyno to know if a wedge was emptying the chambers?

I don't know how overscavenging would show up on the dyno data, but I think that one issue with your suggested approach is that more lift may not generate much more flow.  I don't have the flow numbers, but I'll bet that at .660" lift the flow on that exhaust port is flatlining, and adding lift won't generate much more.  The only potential benefit would be if the ramps were steeper and you got to the lift where flow maxes out more quickly, but then there is the issue of street reliability with the spring rates required for a faster ramp. 

Your question really begs for a back to back dyno test with different cams, to test the theory behind a long exhaust duration and overscavenging port.  So many FE questions, so little time... ;D
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

KMcCullah

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Re: Guess the tunnel port horsepower!
« Reply #28 on: November 12, 2012, 01:29:20 PM »
The heads appear to be aluminum. Has somebody started casting TP heads? Or are they cast iron with a clear coat?
Is the HVC coil really duct taped to the mount or is it in the witness protection program?  ;D
Kevin McCullah


jayb

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Re: Guess the tunnel port horsepower!
« Reply #29 on: November 12, 2012, 01:58:57 PM »
Those are factory cast iron heads, painted to fool people into thinking they are aluminum heads.  I see it is working  ;D

Yes, that is duct tape holding the coil in place.  The coil had one 10-32 stud that we were able to screw onto the front engine mount bracket for mounting, but it was in a rubber mount and the coil would flop around on the rubber without the duct tape.  -2 for style points on that one...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC