Author Topic: Starting to understand why building engines may be best left to the professional  (Read 116491 times)

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cjshaker

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Why would I build a 445 if driving like a sane person was my goal?

LMAO!! ;D
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

Barry_R

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Why would I build a 445 if driving like a sane person was my goal?

Where is the "like button" for this?   8)

Yellow Truck

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According to QFT that carb came with a .037 IFR. Drew - what is your suggestion for the first size I should try?

BTW - any suggestions for a clip to put on top of the oil pump drive? I don't think I can wander into an auto parts store and ask for one.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2017, 04:50:51 PM by Yellow Truck »
1969 F100 4WD (It ain't yellow anymore)
445 with BBM heads, Prison Break stroker kit, hydrualic roller cam, T&D rockers, Street Dominator Intake with QFT SS 830.

Paul.

My427stang

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According to QFT that carb came with a .037 IFR. Drew - what is your suggestion for the first size I should try?

BTW - any suggestions for a clip to put on top of the oil pump drive? I don't think I can wander into an auto parts store and ask for one.

Why are you changing the IFR?  Leave it as delivered, the balance between IAB, IFR and transition slot matters and although that seems like a huge IFR, if that's how it came, why change?

As far as the clip, I'd just buy a new drive unless you can find the proper clip laying around the bench.  If it breaks off and locks the oil pump or doesn't hold tight, it's not worth doing.  Get a Ford Racing drive, or a stock style Melling and install it "clip up"
« Last Edit: September 05, 2017, 05:29:09 PM by My427stang »
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

Drew Pojedinec

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Yup.  if you drive like a sane person you'll never even use the power valve.  For testing I've plugged it in order to get the perfect jet size without enrichment.

Why would I build a 445 if driving like a sane person was my goal? In any case I will pick up a new PV and put it in when I take of the carb next.

Funny, but misses the point entirely.  Everyone says this, right up to the point when they are wanting to sell the vehicle because it's such a pain to drive in 98% of their usage and they are tired of tinkering with it.

Yellow Truck

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Drew - you are right about difficult to drive, and it was said more for a laugh. Having said that I built it to drive it like an idiot from time to time.

BTW - Ross asked why I'd consider messing with the IFR. I looked back at your first post on this thread and you strongly suggested a smaller IFR, thinking that the stock one was too large, and you recently said you thought it might be as big as 0.35. It is in fact .037, which I am guessing is bigger than you thought.
1969 F100 4WD (It ain't yellow anymore)
445 with BBM heads, Prison Break stroker kit, hydrualic roller cam, T&D rockers, Street Dominator Intake with QFT SS 830.

Paul.

Drew Pojedinec

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the Q series that came in here to my shop were because they fouled plugs nonstop.


I know Mr lykins has an affinity for these Q carbs, and Ross is well beyond my experience level, so I was gonna bow out of this discussion....  I don't want to make any enemies or contradict what someone else is telling you.

The last thought I have to offer, get an ole reliable 3310 or heck even an 1850 from a friend, just to borrow, as long as it works and is clean ish.  Toss it on.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2017, 08:55:41 PM by Drew Pojedinec »

My427stang

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Drew - I actually agree with you that a .035 IFR is a monster, and in general, I don't love QFT after talking to the guys there, but lots of guys, including Brent have great luck.  The issue I have with an IFR change is too many changes at once.  Cam timing, PV, likely too much accel pump.  More than that, don't worry about us arguing, you and RJP are the two guys I can really talk carbs with, happy to have different opinions.  Just trying to slow the train down a bit on this repair.

Paul - The thing about an IFR is that the "idle" term can be misleading.  The IFR feeds two circuits, idle and transition. 

The idle circuit gets fuel from the IFR and air from the IAB and makes an emuslified (bubbly) mix that can easily fed to the motor.  The amount of that mix is controlled by the idle screws, so, you can control idle a/f by the idle screws, even if the IFR is too big

The other circuit is the transition circuit, the vertical slots you showed us pictures of.  Those provide fuel before the air starts flowing over the boosters enough to pull fuel in cleanly. Those are not adjustable, however, their reaction is controlled by the width of the slots, the amount of vacuum, the IFR size, as well as the IAB.  Think of a soda straw with a hole in it.  Big straw, small air hole in the side of it, suck hard, you get lots of soda pop.  Small straw, big hole in the side, don't suck hard, you get little soda and lots of bubbles

You are changing how hard the engine sucks, and at the same time, going to change the overall idle a/f requirements and adjustments because of that, and verifying TDC, which could change the timing curve.  (BTW, I know you say you have no reason to think it's bad, but you have to check with a piston stop, been a while fighting this engine and time to rule things out for good)

I think you "may" need to close the IFR, but because you are going to change how the engine behaves under it, I think you need to wait.  The PV I'd change in a heartbeat, but if you didn't want to go inside the carb yet, that would be understandable in the "1 change at a time" logic

The big thing here is when you advance the cam, there are going to be significant changes.  If I had the truck here, this is how I would attack as a first step.

1 - Advance the cam
2 - Verify TDC with a piston stop (no other way)
3 - I'd likely return the carb to QFT original delivery if it's sitting on the bench, however I'd call that optional, especially if it's still bolted on.  If it wasn't on the bench, I'd likely just fire it up
4 - Set initial timing and verify the curve is correct, especially if TDC needed to be marked.  If you have vac advance, hook it up after you set timing to ported vacuum, ad make sure vacuum is dead at idle.
5 - Adjust idle a/f and idle speed, somewhere around 800 for that cam
6 - Road test and gather information for next change

Now, the issue I have though is you haven't posted the list we are going to work off of, so all I am doing is pushing you to higher vacuum and a proper set up  If there are other issues, then I may adjust.  Better to "plan the fight, then fly the plan" right now, I think we are looking at each symptom separately, so when able, really would like to see a complete complaint list.

« Last Edit: September 06, 2017, 06:18:18 AM by My427stang »
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

cjshaker

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Agree completely with Ross that you've got to get the basics nailed down first (cam position established/moved, timing/curve, idle adjustment) otherwise you're wasting time since it will have a pretty drastic effect on the carb.

Mainly I just wanted to comment to ask Ross if he's gotten that smoking problem fixed in his car? Really, it's embarrassing  8)
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

Yellow Truck

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I haven't done the list, but I also haven't done anything to the engine - yesterday was spent at medical meetings about my wife and brother.

I am going to pick up a new oil pan gasket, if I can get one, a new oil pump drive, and a gear puller today and will move the cam. I promise I won't do anything else at the same time. I will also post the list of issues I had before I moved the cam, and any changes since moving the cam.

Then, with the list put up here, I'll consult with my betters on what to tackle first. Question about IFR size was related to getting some parts for when I eventually take the carb off and start making changes. I will want a small bunch of parts on hand rather than make repeated trips to the pats store. In particular I was asking QFT about the IFR size because it is one thing I don't know about the carb because QFT don't list it in the specs.

Next up, oil pan, oil pump drive shaft, finish pulling the timing set, find TDC with my piston stop, set up the timing and confirm cam is in the correct (advanced 4 degrees) position, and button up the front and bottom of the engine. Then I'll drive it with the carb as is and report back.
1969 F100 4WD (It ain't yellow anymore)
445 with BBM heads, Prison Break stroker kit, hydrualic roller cam, T&D rockers, Street Dominator Intake with QFT SS 830.

Paul.

My427stang

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Mainly I just wanted to comment to ask Ross if he's gotten that smoking problem fixed in his car? Really, it's embarrassing  8)

It's funny too, must be blow-by because the pipes are nice and clean :)
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

Tobbemek

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One thing to keep in mind is that when the cam gets advanced and one gets better intake vacuum the increased vacuum will suck more fuel on the same size IFR and shore  foul the plugs even moor. Get the carb set up like a old school Holley 750 DP, i am first thinking of E-bleed configuration and IFR / IAB . Also important to have the IFR in the lower position if not already so. IFR in size 033-035  and IAB  068-070 is a close calibration.. Use size 028 fore E-bleeds.   Only E-bleed #1 and #3 if it is a 3 ore 4 hole metering block and #1 and #4 if it is a #5 hole metering block plug the rest.   MJ and powervalve same thing old school Holley to begin with pri 72  sec 80, powervalve 6.5 in front and you will be much happier
The UNIVERSAL carbys from QFT and adders this days are useley very stinking rich on everything that's being used for any kind of street driving.
The old school Holley 750 is a very good "drivers carb" right out of the box, and if you are not hunting fore the last top end horse powers its hard to beet with anything, maybe except for the 780 VS if one can set it up to function properly for ones combo

My427stang

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One thing to keep in mind is that when the cam gets advanced and one gets better intake vacuum the increased vacuum will suck more fuel on the same size IFR and shore  foul the plugs even moor. Get the carb set up like a old school Holley 750 DP, i am first thinking of E-bleed configuration and IFR / IAB . Also important to have the IFR in the lower position if not already so. IFR in size 033-035  and IAB  068-070 is a close calibration.. Use size 028 fore E-bleeds.   Only E-bleed #1 and #3 if it is a 3 ore 4 hole metering block and #1 and #4 if it is a #5 hole metering block plug the rest.   MJ and powervalve same thing old school Holley to begin with pri 72  sec 80, powervalve 6.5 in front and you will be much happier
The UNIVERSAL carbys from QFT and adders this days are useley very stinking rich on everything that's being used for any kind of street driving.
The old school Holley 750 is a very good "drivers carb" right out of the box, and if you are not hunting fore the last top end horse powers its hard to beet with anything, maybe except for the 780 VS if one can set it up to function properly for ones combo

I agree with everything you said, especially the low IFR and IFR size in general, however, I believe that his flooding stopped after the PV change. 

Not to mention, as RJP and I had in a side discussion, he could have had a plugged air bleed as well that was cleaned during the carb work.  I really recommend we do not tell him how the carb should be set up yet and get some data after the engine is building some vacuum.

Although I fully expect that the PV needs to be changed to a 6.5, we may find that it does OK with the current emulsion and idle configuration, many QFTs do just fine

In the end though, the advice you gave is my general procedure, but a new guy making multiple changes at once will likely cause more confusion

« Last Edit: September 07, 2017, 02:39:14 PM by My427stang »
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

Tobbemek

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I fully agree in the term don't change more then one thing at a time ore you don't know what and so on, but i strongly believe that most of thous "newer" "trick"carbs are so way of that its easier to just get it all done right as close as possible from the beginning in stead of chasing a wrong jet/bleed at a time. they are "all over the place". I dont think its more difficult-harder to do the carb right from the beginning than all the other stuff with lifters/rockers adjustment and cam degree ing and distributor fixing Paul had to go throe. The "mechanic" job is pretty straight forward in the carby, knowing what size on the different jets/bleeds takes more experience and knowhow, and that's one off the reasons i say go back to old Holley configuration to start with they are seldom wrong. anyway  there is plenty of people on here to take care of that like you your self Ross and Drew fore an example, and a others as well.      First i was going to keep my noose out of it because i know you gat Paul all "covered" in this too, then i thought on what Paul sead him self better get it all at ones then going several trips to get what needed.
At least i think its essential to get the carb all "MAPPED" so one know whats really is in it to start with, fore fur der calibration suggestions. 

Yellow Truck

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Progress report:

I got the timing set off and the oil pan and oil pump dropped. Got the new oil pump drive in place and the pump loose fit in place. I'll torque it up and put the oil feed tube back on Saturday. Got the front of the engine clean and the oil pan scraped and wire brushed so I can put it back on when I have the timing cover back on place.

The oil pan was tricky, I also have the power assist system off an early 70's - the ram and hydraulic valve assembly. It takes up a lot of room so I'll have to do a test install of the pan before I try it with the gasket.

In addition to the oil drive I picked up a 5.5 QFT power valve today. Don't see them very often so I grabbed it. With respect to doing one thing at a time, do rest assured that I am following this process. I did decide to clean up the problem with the oil drive being installed incorrectly since I had to clean out the inside of the oil pan, but that is IT.

I am asking about carb parts so I can stockpile some parts. It is a HUGE pain in the ass to have to drive out 5 times for one small part of a project, so having what I'll need on hand is the plan. I do think I'll pull the carb off for that stage, and I will confirm what is in it against my list of what I think is in it.

I am not keen to go back to stock because it was so rich it fouled the plugs every time I drove it. I'm currently on my 6th set of plugs with less than 3 hours of running time on the engine. These are the first that are not black with oily soot. However I am open to reconsidering given that some of you have done this hundreds of times and I'm still on my first.
1969 F100 4WD (It ain't yellow anymore)
445 with BBM heads, Prison Break stroker kit, hydrualic roller cam, T&D rockers, Street Dominator Intake with QFT SS 830.

Paul.