Oil Pump Dyno

[410bruce]

Man, this is neat! Thanks for doing this, WConley. Very interesting stuff. 

[My427stang]

I would like to see a HV body with a standard spring. I always thought Ford did it backwards with the B pump.  I don't think we need the extra pressure in most cases, but I think the big body is nice for idle pressure.

Funny we can buy a STD, a B (STD With HV spring) and HP (STD with 100 psi spring) and HV, but no HV with STD spring.  My guess is they didn't know what to call it LOL  LPHV?  Who would want low pressure? LOL

[jbamber]

Forgot to mention - The M-57 HV pump uses 2.92 HP at 7,500 rpm.  The parasitic torque is fairly linear, rising only slightly as rpm goes up.  It's a little over 2 ft-lb at the crank.

Note that this parasitic loss includes the crossed gears that drive the pump.  They're pretty inefficient, but that is how it's done in our FE's.

Nice work!  When you reference RPM, are you referring to pump RPM or crankshaft RPM?

[KMcCullah]

Neato Mr Bill!  M57HV with 15/40 Rotella please...Lol Edit: I'm pretty sure running Rotella at too low of temp, say 160-175, at 7000k+ is what roasted my distributor gear. It was steel too!

Maybe I missed it but, is this cavitation issue with a 1/2 or 5/8 pickup tube?

[Blueoval77]

There you go Brent . But when you factor in 5-7K rods and crank and perhaps another 6K in block.... That grand doesnt feel so bad That aerated oil deal can keep a man awake at night.
Conley would you be inclined to give the Titan a spin if someone were to send you one ?

High flow dynamics seems to be the flavor that the 385 boys like.

[WConley]

Nice work!  When you reference RPM, are you referring to pump RPM or crankshaft RPM?

Thanks!  You guys are sure making cool eye candy as well!

I'm reporting everything in crankshaft rpm.  I can't imagine a geroter pump being very happy at such a high input shaft speed 

[WConley]

Conley would you be inclined to give the Titan a spin if someone were to send you one ?

High flow dynamics seems to be the flavor that the 385 boys like.

I sure would!  I'm sure we would all like to see how more you get for that kind of cash 

[pbf777]

I'm reporting everything in crankshaft rpm.  I can't imagine a geroter pump being very happy at such a high input shaft speed 

     As I have been made to understand the standard scrolls were intended to operate at say 3000 R.P.M. (pump speed), at something approaching 5000 R.P.M. be prepared for scroll to segment its' self!     

     Scott.

[Barry_R]

Hmm  - Interesting.  Not sure on the Harley XR engine but it's possible that they wanted to slow the pump down at race rpm (for cavitation reasons) and that engine doesn't spend much time at idle.  As for the 427, this wouldn't be the first time we discovered something that the old-timers already knew!  On the original spin machine, I learned why the racers didn't generally use the adjustable SOHC adjusters.  They would burn up if turning more than 30 seconds above 6,000 rpm.

I remember that one.  I sent you a custom "double roller" T&D rocker I had them make and ran it along wit my preferred spring package - and stood by "hopin' and prayin'" that I had done the right thing.

[pbf777]

Dead heading a pump and causing the bypass or relief valve to recirc is one of the quickest ways short of a heating element to heat up an oil sump...........

     I wouldn't "dead-head" these units at speed particularly H.V. units as I'm not under the impression that the by-pass circuit has the capacity for 100% of the flow volume of the pump; and something will give!   

     Scott.

     

[WConley]

Neato Mr Bill!  M57HV with 15/40 Rotella please...Lol Edit: I'm pretty sure running Rotella at too low of temp, say 160-175, at 7000k+ is what roasted my distributor gear. It was steel too!

Maybe I missed it but, is this cavitation issue with a 1/2 or 5/8 pickup tube?

Kevin -  I'll have to check on the pickup tube.  It's nothing special - stock replacement.  I am seeing no pressure fluctuations that would indicate starvation though.

Also, running thicker oil will not cause a crazy increase in the load on the oil pump drive (unless you're cold starting it at 30 degrees LOL!)  Thicker oil does knock the flow down, but load is tied to pressure.  You'll be running in the higher end of the normal pressure range for sure.  My tests show that the load torque doesn't move a huge amount in the normal pressure range - maybe 2X.  If it was 5X more load then I could see trouble for the gears.  Your wiped gear is a head-scratcher...

Are you running that steel gear on an iron cam?  That'll cause big problems!  I haven't heard of anybody wiping a steel gear in any reasonable amount of time...

[WConley]

     I wouldn't "dead-head" these units at speed particularly H.V. units as I'm not under the impression that the by-pass circuit has the capacity for 100% of the flow volume of the pump; and something will give!   

     Scott.

   

I can tell you that dead-heading my rig, even at idle, causes drive torque to peg and bad noises to emanate from lots of places.  Scott is right - Very unhappy pump!

[WConley]

I remember that one.  I sent you a custom "double roller" T&D rocker I had them make and ran it along wit my preferred spring package - and stood by "hopin' and prayin'" that I had done the right thing.

Oh I remember that well!  Here's a little trip down memory lane    This is the same test rig with the SOHC head mounted, spinning that dual roller rocker arm up to 9,500 crankshaft rpm.  You were "hopin' and prayin'"  I was next to the thing getting ready to run!

https://youtu.be/5iR65BnOofs

[pbf777]

.......... I don't think we need the extra pressure in most cases,...........

     I believe relative to the FE engine the higher pressures were instituted as obviously the oil gallery diameters and plumbing routeing although adequate for the original intentions suffered as engine speeds picked up; and then with the "cross-drilled" crankshaft plumbing, this proves to require greater pressure to overcome the centrifugal forces versus the standard crankshafts, or the more popular today "Straight-Shot" plumbing; so the quickest solution was to just increase the differential across the orifice so to say to increase flow volume within the same area, and overcome centrifugal force.     

     Scott.

     

[blykins]

Neato Mr Bill!  M57HV with 15/40 Rotella please...Lol Edit: I'm pretty sure running Rotella at too low of temp, say 160-175, at 7000k+ is what roasted my distributor gear. It was steel too!

Maybe I missed it but, is this cavitation issue with a 1/2 or 5/8 pickup tube?

If it was a steel distributor gear with a steel cam, a high volume pump won't kill it. 

The biggest issue with distributor gears on Fords is the install height.  Under no circumstances should you ever just line the hole up on the new gear and put the pin in.  The holes vary from gear to gear and there's a specific install height that has to be held.