Oil Pump Dyno

[Heo]

Safe to say that now the FE forum is squarely in the cross hairs of PETA , I sure hope Pamela Anderson isnt reading this thread.....

Hmmmm....... Funny you mention Pamela  when talking about making things harder
she is known to have that effect. Not necessarily by rubbing her hoofs against it, but i guess
that worked to, for someone

[babybolt]

https://www.onallcylinders.com/2020/02/04/video-ford-7-3l-godzilla-engine-overview-part-2-camshaft-valve-train-oil-pump/

[Dan859]

You guys are just cracking me up!!  This is the first I've heard of transgender cows.  LMAO!!  This sounds a lot like the color casehardening that gunsmiths do.  They put the metal parts into a container with bone and charcoal, heat it, hold it at a particular temperature, then quench the parts.  As I understand it, it forces carbon into the surface of the metal, hardening it for a depth of several thousandths of an inch.  I grew up in a farming area, cows are nothing to mess with.  They're not nearly as laid back and mellow as a lot of people think.   

[WConley]

Safe to say that now the FE forum is squarely in the cross hairs of PETA , I sure hope Pamela Anderson isnt reading this thread.....

Hmmmm....... Funny you mention Pamela  when talking about making things harder
she is known to have that effect. Not necessarily by rubbing her hoofs against it, but i guess
that worked to, for someone

Back in the day, Pamela's udders were almost as big as that "bull"'s.  She and Tommy Lee lived in the next town over from me.  Sightings were pretty common.  She had substantial lower back muscles.

Anyway, back to oil pumps!  I'll post up some new data later today.

[Blueoval77]

Not a problem if you happen to have a good sharp Katana......

[machoneman]

https://www.onallcylinders.com/2020/02/04/video-ford-7-3l-godzilla-engine-overview-part-2-camshaft-valve-train-oil-pump/

They have to be shitting us! A complicated oil pump, designed primarily to help fuel mileage?

Geez, as noted early on with the dyno test, it takes less than 3 hp (!) to drive a FE pump at high rpms. Yikes, how much more hp could a variable vane pump save in this new design? 1 hp maybe? Have the engineers totally used up all other possibilities to increase mpg where now they have to design a pump that looks like it won't go 100k miles, if that? Would not say taking the barn-door frontal area of most F-series trucks a making them a lot more aerodynamic offer much greater gains? Foolish I say.   

[Blueoval77]

Yep , if you have spent enough time working on these newer Fords you can take one look at that thing and see a PITA failure written all over it.....Its like they take the things they know will fail just above 100K miles and use them over and over again without update....

[WConley]

https://www.onallcylinders.com/2020/02/04/video-ford-7-3l-godzilla-engine-overview-part-2-camshaft-valve-train-oil-pump/

They have to be shitting us! A complicated oil pump, designed primarily to help fuel mileage?

You guys would be amazed how much fuel economy benefit there is from reducing parasitic horsepower.  I'm pretty sure the 7.3L pump is bigger, and running harder to handle the variable valve timing actuators.  It would be using more than a few HP if running at full pressure all of the time.  At steady-state cruise with the valve timing set, they can dial down the pressure to less than half.  That would save at least a couple HP, which would help the EPA number substantially.  Wolfe said the economy gain was enough that they didn't have to use a cylinder deactivation system.  Now THOSE are complicated systems so I'd call this a win.

Oh - That variable pump is not just adjusted by the spring.  The chamber above the arm is fed with oil controlled by a solenoid valve.  (See the little wiper seal on the end of the arm?)  The oil pressure pushes the arm down, and when the solenoid valve reduces the oil, the spring returns the arm back up.  This is a fail-safe too, in case the electronics or solenoid fail.  The spring will just push the arm all the way up and it becomes a full-flow pump.

[Blueoval77]

Yes , and if you have worked on these things since they came out you already know the rock solid performance Ford has had out of all of these oil pressure controlled systems...
Combine these systems with mas produced components designed more with the bottom line in mind and ladies and gentlemen  . I give you the Ford 3 valve phaser tick....Or the chain slap , or the burned up followers or locked up cam on passengers side.....
The systems are great when you throw good parts at them . But out of the box.......... Its a mess.....

[Joe-JDC]

Do you guys realize that some of the new F-150 Ford pickup trucks have louvers in the front grill area that is variable at different speeds to control engine temperature, and aerodynamics of the frontal area?  The added weight of the controller, louvers, electronics, and space required makes it seem to be a detriment to fuel mileage, but it is there.  Does it help mileage?  At highway speeds, the Roush 650 hp engine gets 25 mpg here in TX, NM, CO with two people, complete engine as removed from dyno in truck bed, with luggage, etc.  The front of that truck is very aerodynamic with the louvers closed at 75 MPH.  Joe-JDC 

[RJP]

Oil pressure management has been around for years. Cummins, and I'm sure the others, Detroit and Cat used similar oil volume and pressure limitations. On Cummins [the only diesel I had 1st hand experience with] they went to a smaller gear pump that reduced the volume as well as a lighter relief spring that limited oil pressure to about 40 lbs. cold and hot. It was a tough transition for me to make as I was accustom to the typical 60-65 lbs o/p hot, running. Cummins put a lot of research into how little the typical 855 cu/in 'N'series engines required for adequate oiling. IIRC they claimed a 2-3% mpg fuel savings over the old design. This was back in the 70s-early 80s where they were just starting to scratch for each and every mpg they could find. In the beginning it was hard for me to watch the oil pressure gauge as it would drop to 32-33 lbs at 18-1900 rpm on a hard pull, loaded up a long grade on a hot day.

[RustyCrankshaft]

Oil pressure management has been around for years. Cummins, and I'm sure the others, Detroit and Cat used similar oil volume and pressure limitations. On Cummins [the only diesel I had 1st hand experience with] they went to a smaller gear pump that reduced the volume as well as a lighter relief spring that limited oil pressure to about 40 lbs. cold and hot. It was a tough transition for me to make as I was accustom to the typical 60-65 lbs o/p hot, running. Cummins put a lot of research into how little the typical 855 cu/in 'N'series engines required for adequate oiling. IIRC they claimed a 2-3% mpg fuel savings over the old design. This was back in the 70s-early 80s where they were just starting to scratch for each and every mpg they could find. In the beginning it was hard for me to watch the oil pressure gauge as it would drop to 32-33 lbs at 18-1900 rpm on a hard pull, loaded up a long grade on a hot day.

The biggest reason Cummins switched to the lower oil pressure on the 855's was as part of a switch to the low flow cooling engines. They had the right idea, but the concept was poorly executed and had reliability issues which led the reputation all the 88NT version of the engines had. This culminated in the now infamous 444 engine which was aimed at taking market share away from Cat's 3406 425HP truck engines. The idea was to control oil and coolant flow to maintain max operating temps, but due to the complicated way Cummins achieved it, there were always problems. Especially as the engines aged, a common failure was the internal lower rad baffle failing which would lead to low oil pressure and then overheating, among other issues.

Interestly tho, Cummins work with the low flow engines led later on to most truck engines going to a simplified version of that concept but done more reliably in the thermostat housings. Cat truck engines and Series 60's had the best version of that in my opinion.

Cummins did try some additional engine oil flow control only measures on the M11 and ISM's that did work, but people screwed with that stuff without understanding how it work and wiped out a lot of crankshafts. The viscosity valve in the block is NOT a relief valve!

I think from the research I've seen lately, that the variable oil pump/flow is less about pump drive HP loss, than the loss created by excess oil throughout the engine. If you don't need all that oil on parts at cruise then leave it in the pan. On fuel flow tests I've seen (SwRI) it is an measurable and repeatable gain. I'm just not sure I'm excited about the potential problems when the system fails for a few tenths of a mpg.

[WConley]

Here's some new data to stir things up!  I got a new M-57 B standard volume high pressure pump from Doug Garifo.  I also got a new M-57 HV pump that is pure stock - not blueprinted.  (As you guys know, the original blueprinted HV pump got toasted.  I'm pretty sure it ingested something while I was shaking down the test rig...)

Here's what the pressure and flow look like for the two pumps.  What???  That's bass-ackwards!  The M-57 B actually makes more flow and pressure than the M-57 HV, except at very low rpm.  The M-57 B is also more efficient, using about 0.5 less HP at 7,500 rpm.

Here are the charts:





I am confident that this data is correct, because I ran the tests back-to-back on the same fresh oil with the instruments on and at the same calibration.  I even re-ran to make sure!

Why is this so?  I have a few ideas:

- The M-57 B is blueprinted by Doug and the M-57 HV is not.  Note that this M-57 HV is down on flow quite a bit from the previous HV pump that was blueprinted by Doug.

- The HV pump may be suffering from bad port timing.  In other words, the inlet and outlet ports may not be in the exact correct positions for optimal flow.  Mike Brunson turned me on to this from an old-time speed shop that "times" pumps in his hometown.

- You guys may be right about the pump pickup.  It's a stock 1/2" front sump pickup.  Maybe the HV pump is drawing on it too hard and flow is stalling.

I inspected the bottom covers on both pumps and they are fine.  Here's the M-57 B.  It just has polishing and a few very light scratches.  There is no real material loss and the oil stayed clean:



Here's the stock M-57 HV cover plate.  I noticed that it has a blue color!  I was hoping that it got the cow-hoof heat treat, but alas it nicks with a file just as easily as the other covers.  Must just be a thin surface treatment.  This one is also in really good shape with just a bit of polish:




Yes the HV pump did show cavitation when it was bypassing.  This one has a tighter spring - bypassing at about 92 psi.  There are bubbles in the oil after it ran, but not as severe as before.  The flow and pressure loss on the curves is not as severe either.  This may have a lot to do with this HV pump being a lot healthier than the old one:




So flame away!  I'm wondering about the pickup tube, but it may take some effort to source a better one...

[Gregwill16]

Looks like Doug's pumps are worth the extra money to me.

[machoneman]

Do you guys realize that some of the new F-150 Ford pickup trucks have louvers in the front grill area that is variable at different speeds to control engine temperature, and aerodynamics of the frontal area?  The added weight of the controller, louvers, electronics, and space required makes it seem to be a detriment to fuel mileage, but it is there.  Does it help mileage?  At highway speeds, the Roush 650 hp engine gets 25 mpg here in TX, NM, CO with two people, complete engine as removed from dyno in truck bed, with luggage, etc.  The front of that truck is very aerodynamic with the louvers closed at 75 MPH.  Joe-JDC

Did not know that joe and that is very interesting. Still, if as noted below even a 1 hp is worth the effort, how about a full underbody tray for the F-series truck ala' cars like my Audi S5 turbo coupe? That tray is there solely to smooth airflow at highway speeds per Audi.